Amnesty International weighs in on Snowden

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by Daedalus

 

YOU HAVE NO PROOF that state secrets were divulged to foreign governments.....no proof whatsoever...

you are basing this assertion on your OPINION...which is not proof, or fact....

WIth all due respect, there is no question whatsoever that he has divuldged secrets to non-Americans, if not to agents of a foreign nation. That second part would be a pain in the butt to prove in court but isn't necessary to prove, either.

On the face of it, one can say that of course he exposed secrets, because if he hadn't, his value as a whistle blower itself would have been almost worthless. The question is just where the line is, for those who agree there is one, between whistle blowing bad conduct and treasonous compromise of National Security.

Snowden’s Leaks on China Could Affect Its Role in His Fate

That refers to his own releases through the Guardian and other media he has communicated with. His choice to give fine detail of internal operations/methods for intelligence gathering in China. That's pretty far beyond looking to bust U.S. abuses.

There is something else to consider...and it's something I do consider when thinking about the actions in this case.

SIEGEL: Thinking back to the release of the Pentagon Papers, and in more recent times, of the WikiLeaks documents - Julian Assange will cite you as precedent - do you think there is a place for a great deal of classified information about military engagements?

Mr. ELLSBERG: Of course - a lot of information that is properly classified for a time. You know, the dates and time of the Normandy landing was, obviously, a super secret. How secret did they need to be, let's say, on June 15th of 1944?

SIEGEL: So for the duration of operations, and while lives are at risk immediately, you can see the cause for classification. After that, it's just a matter...

Mr. ELLSBERG: Look, I worked in that system. Of course, I can. I stamped plenty of stuff secret or top secret. And I have no apologies for that, at the time.

Source

Even the 'role model' of leakers neither ran to enemy nations to seek shelter (and the bad guys back then were NO less scary. Worse..really. They got away with more, IMO), he also ..after everything... agrees with the need for Secrecy and Security. Albeit FAR FAR short of how it's actually used, and that I agree with.

However.. it's not Snowden's place to start deciding what about international intelligence games, he only ever could have seen small segments of, are now fair game to burn from the US side so the other can grow stronger by it.

Crusading to break up actions by abusive agencies was noble. Standing up and being willing to remain standing for his beliefs was noble. Peddling ALL he knows for safety and taking no consequence in the process starts looking a whole lot less noble, IMO.

and i understand that, what i'm saying is that there is no proof that he has told anyone (official), any thing they didn't already know...that's my entire point...

all this premature declarations of "hero" and "traitor" are insane, and insanely divisive....

as to leaving the country, this, i feel was necessary......Ellsberg didn't leave the country, because he didn't feel it was necessary...

he worked in the system, he knew what he would be up against, he knew their capabilities....the same is true of Snowden...Ellsberg was from a different generation, a different time, where the methods, proceedures, and capabilities employed by the federal government (intelligence services to be specific) were much different from what is employed today..

i have a feeling if Ellsberg were an employee of his old agency today, and was going to release something similar to what he released before..knowing what he would know of today's capabilities, i'm fairly certain he'd have left the country too....of course, this is speculative on my part, but it stands to reason that this would be the case..

Originally posted by zeeon

Originally posted by Daedalus

Originally posted by Tykonos
reply to post by xavi1000

 

You see , my signature is like people of you , you are worthy attacking for making these claims, Snowden is not a spy , if he was he will be now in Beijing or Moscow enjoying ,,,but he is now running and running.... Snowden sacrifice his life for people like you ordinary people who wants their privacy protected which is fundamental part of freedom if you understand what is that. History is being made and unfolding as we speak ... those on the wrong side of it by obstructing and impeding the truth from emerging are noted and shall be remembered.

I haven't seen FlyersFan calling Snowdon a spy.

He's not running, he's gone missing in Russia, who still to my knowledge say they don't know where he is.

History is being made as we speak, you're right. You are obstructing and impeding truth from emerging by denying others the right to speculate an opposing view to yours.

edit on 25-6-2013 by Tykonos because: (no reason given)

actually, FF is of the opinion that Snowden may have been recruited by the chinese, and then got the jobs an NSA/CIA to gather information for them (AKA: Spying)...so yeah, FF did kinda call him a spy...

which is funny...all these baseless accusations....dragging the man through the mud, when he/she/wtfever has absolutely ZERO proof that ANY of their assertions have ANY actual fact-based merit....

edit on 25-6-2013 by Daedalus because: (no reason given)

Here's a fact. Snowden SIGNED and AGREED to keep our Nations secret - SECRET.
After signing that agreement, he was bound by LAW to keep it secret.
Or is the rule of law something we don't care about anymore?

Furthermore, he could have exposed the NSA for spying without exposing our National secrets.
He didn't do that though, did he? He went balls out and exposed everything - without any thought of the potential ramifications his actions might bring (especially on the rest of us, who unlike him - are still living in America).

ok, so since PRISM was secret, how could he expose it, without exposing it?

reply to post by Daedalus


indeed the law(CISPA) which allows PRISM its current reach violates the 4th amendment but as it stands there has been no breach of law, until CISPA is repealed or amended there is nothing illegal about PRISM, what he did was illegal and the constitution makes no allowances for criminal behavior even if laws violate it.
if he wanted to help Americans why did he run?
why didn't he stay, be arrested and appeal to the court?
why did he not get involved with current legal efforts to repeal or amend CISPA?
why not sue the government and take these constitutional violations to the supreme court?
he ignored all legal manner of appeal and revealed detailed information on intelligence operations to everyone, he damaged the credibility of opposition efforts towards CISPA and such laws with his actions, endangered both members of our intelligence community and scared off informants who reveal things without going into every detail and breaking laws.
all he did was create hostility between nations and panic the government into reactionary behavior which will help no one, emotions will blind the mainstream to the truth because the target of misinformation he made himself with how he handled this situation, oftentimes direct and loud actions have adverse effects on your desired goal. i see him as a traitor because all these reasons, not because what he revealed but because how he went about it then proceeding to run and hide in an adversarial nation for "protection", his paranoia and irrational fear of death drove him to behave foolishly and create many problems for us all, driving the emotions of those in government and those who support them in more dangerous directions

honestly i don't support what the NSA is doing but he could've done it within the law, could've helped with changing the laws without creating such a mess, this is a representative republic after all, not a democracy where "the people" have the right to know everything and directly decide how to run things.

Originally posted by Computron

Originally posted by Daedalus





HOW DARE YOU! THAT COMBINATION OF HERBS, SPICES, AND SEASONINGS IS CRITICAL TO THE SECURITY OF OBESE PEOPLE ALL OVER OUR FINE NATION!

We wouldn't want popeye's chicken finding out now would we?

Perish the thought....

reply to post by Shadowphile


and i too have challenged for proof...so far it has not appeared, and i do not believe it is likely to appear within the span of my lifetime....i've decided to breathe instead..

Originally posted by Daedalus
reply to post by Shadowphile

 

and i too have challenged for proof...so far it has not appeared, and i do not believe it is likely to appear within the span of my lifetime....i've decided to breathe instead..

Maybe she is daughter of Peter King

Originally posted by namehere
reply to post by Daedalus

 

indeed the law(CISPA) which allows PRISM its current reach violates the 4th amendment but as it stands there has been no breach of law, until CISPA is repealed or amended there is nothing illegal about PRISM, what he did was illegal and the constitution makes no allowances for criminal behavior even if laws violate it.
if he wanted to help Americans why did he run?
why didn't he stay, be arrested and appeal to the court?
why did he not get involved with current legal efforts to repeal or amend CISPA?
why not sue the government and take these constitutional violations to the supreme court?
he ignored all legal manner of appeal and revealed detailed information on intelligence operations to everyone, he damaged the credibility of opposition efforts towards CISPA and such laws with his actions, endangered both members of our intelligence community and scared off informants who reveal things without going into every detail and breaking laws.
all he did was create hostility between nations and panic the government into reactionary behavior which will help no one, emotions will blind the mainstream to the truth because the target of misinformation he made himself with how he handled this situation, oftentimes direct and loud actions have adverse effects on your desired goal. i see him as a traitor because all these reasons, not because what he revealed but because how he went about it then proceeding to run and hide in an adversarial nation for "protection", his paranoia and irrational fear of death drove him to behave foolishly and create many problems for us all, driving the emotions of those in government and those who support them in more dangerous directions

um...news flash: CISPA was never passed into law...

it's still a proposed law, that makes it not a law...

Originally posted by Daedalus




the 4th is all that is required....the fact that you believe otherwise tells me there's something wrong with you.

but since you insist, how about Executive order 12333, which outlines the NSA's mission as the collection of data that constitutes "foreign intelligence or counterintelligence" while not "acquiring information concerning the domestic activities of United States persons". or how about the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978?

Totally agree,
I posted elsewhere the same article,
'Article [IV]
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches..
and your second is that the warrants are supposed to come from a court that deal with foreign intelligence, and is called a foreign intelligence court??

Originally posted by smurfy

Originally posted by Daedalus




the 4th is all that is required....the fact that you believe otherwise tells me there's something wrong with you.

but since you insist, how about Executive order 12333, which outlines the NSA's mission as the collection of data that constitutes "foreign intelligence or counterintelligence" while not "acquiring information concerning the domestic activities of United States persons". or how about the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978?

Totally agree,
I posted elsewhere the same article,
'Article [IV]
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches..
and your second is that the warrants are supposed to come from a court that deal with foreign intelligence, and is called a foreign intelligence court??

edit on 25-6-2013 by smurfy because: Text.

right, but neither the foreign intelligence court, nor the NSA have any jurisdiction over citizens of these united states, currently residing within it's borders...that's what this is about....domestic spying on citizens by an agency that is not legally allowed to do so.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Todzer
It looks like he didn't have much of a choice though, .

He had a lot of choices ....
- Don't say anything at all.
- Tell the American people about the NSA spying on them, and then stay and fight like a patriot.
- Tell the American people about the NSA spying on them, and then run.
- Tell the American people about the NSA spying on them, and then run and help America's enemies (China and Russia) by telling state secrets that weaken the defense of the USA.

He decided to do the last .... which means he isn't a patriot. He has harmed America.

I get that there is a huge LUV-FEST going on here about Snowden. Lots of people are turning him into a folk-hero. But take a look at ALL his actions, not just the release of the info about the NSA spying on Americans.

I'm glad he released that info. It was a good thing to do. It was a patriotic thing to do. It was a heroic thing to do. But he didn't stop there. He went on to aid America's foreign enemies and put Americans in danger . So his actions and motives are now highly suspect. People here hate to hear those facts. But it's the truth.

You really should do some research. Have you not seen this?

www.usatoday.com...

So he should have stayed here and gotten thrown into Gitmo or some other hole, or even worse gotten himself killed? Also, your drivel filled posts have no basis in reality. You have NO proof that he has given ANY information to ANY other government, yet you keep playing that card.

Deny ignorance, indeed.

What Snowden exposed WAS NOT ILLEGAL. Very likely, YOU and all of the other people espousing the very incorrect notion that the NSA spying is illegal VOTED the law that made it legal.That law is called the Patriot Act.

reply to post by zeeon


I've lived in America all my life. I NEVER got the chance to vote on this. Where the heck did you ever get the idea We The People EVER got to vote on this?

It sure seems the propaganda machine is working quite well on some folks.

There is very little wrong with what snowden did. I find it sad that people still believe the american government cares one bit about americans, much less anyone else. The only thing the american government cares about is spying and war. How many wars has america fought in or assisted others since the end of WW2? Most than any other country.

Yes I also dislike britain and france but not as much as the usa. These three nations are the real axis of evil on this planet. Their population should be saved although I do have some contempt for people who constantly blame and put down others because of their pseudo-superiority complex, but when someone with the great ideals spills the beans they quickly either question their motives or some even call them traitors. The traitors are the ones that are backstabbing america in washington and london. They don't work for you and it should be apparent by now.

Snowden deserves amnesty and respect. Forget the espionage baloney as all superpowers already have nukes, chemical weapons, biological weapons, etc. Russia and China do not need the usa and if WW3 ever breaks out its all she wrote man. Stop being so paranoid when snowden's only chance of sucess was going to "the enemy". I use enemy very loosely! .

Originally posted by Daedalus

um...news flash: CISPA was never passed into law...

it's still a proposed law, that makes it not a law...

well then it seems my last post is moot and he really is a traitor and the NSA violated nothing, i mean it's his word against the government, if legally the NSA can't push things as far as he claims and they've denied doing such and there's no evidence to support his claims.

I find it funny the whole "the world is our enemy" attitude that some have in this thread.

We live in a global community these days, it is no longer the 1400's. At some stage in history almost every "country" (and I use that loosely, as the idea of a country is an ephemeral thing at best), has been friends or enemies with almost every other country in the world.

We now have the population capacity, recorded history and technology to live in a thriving world, yet people want to hold onto these archaic ideas of "us and them", and maintain perpetual conflict.

Realistically, technology and information are at a point that "countries" and "governments" of the world are no longer separate from each other. Follow the resume's of some of the high-powered and you will see that they have worked for corporations and governments that are supposedly opposing each other. Heck, some companies contract out to both sides of any given worldly "dispute".

I'm all for releasing all "state secrets" of every country, in way they can be released (applaud Snowden, regardless of his motivations). Everything government, in every country, should be completely transparent.

"State secrets" are just a way for the greedy and corrupt to hide and abuse power.

Originally posted by namehere

Originally posted by Daedalus

um...news flash: CISPA was never passed into law...

it's still a proposed law, that makes it not a law...

well then it seems my last post is moot and he really is a traitor and the NSA violated nothing, i mean it's his word against the government, if legally the NSA can't push things as far as he claims and they've denied doing such and there's no evidence to support his claims.

edit on 25-6-2013 by namehere because: (no reason given)

??

What a strange twist of conclusions.

reply to post by Daedalus

and as i've said before, what purpose would be served by him remaining in the country?

Sue me for thinking people should stand up and fight for what they think

in the late 1700s, the kingdom of great britian did not have the ability to remotely take over someone's horse, and make it blow up, or crash into something..they did not have the ability to fire a missile up your ass from miles away, they didn't have the abilities the federal government has at it's disposal today to suppress and silence whistleblowers....the ONLY way to ensure his safety, was to leave...how can you not see this?

Russia and China doesn't have the same 'capability' really?

Wonder where that student from China is who stopped that tank is today and Russia on long list of what Russia can do quite a bit including radiation assassination.

Originally posted by namehere

Originally posted by Daedalus

um...news flash: CISPA was never passed into law...

it's still a proposed law, that makes it not a law...

well then it seems my last post is moot and he really is a traitor and the NSA violated nothing, i mean it's his word against the government, if legally the NSA can't push things as far as he claims and they've denied doing such and there's no evidence to support his claims.

edit on 25-6-2013 by namehere because: (no reason given)

what the hell are you talking about?

there's plenty of evidence to support his claims....

so because some unconstitutional draconian law hasn't been passed yet, this fellow is automatically a traitor?

you have a lot of explaining to do, because this post makes less than no sense..

Originally posted by Shadowphile

Originally posted by namehere

Originally posted by Daedalus

um...news flash: CISPA was never passed into law...

it's still a proposed law, that makes it not a law...

well then it seems my last post is moot and he really is a traitor and the NSA violated nothing, i mean it's his word against the government, if legally the NSA can't push things as far as he claims and they've denied doing such and there's no evidence to support his claims.

edit on 25-6-2013 by namehere because: (no reason given)

??

What a strange twist of conclusions.

ROFL

i almost couldn't put it better myself....

i mean, yes, i used significantly more words in my reply, but the overall thought was roughly the same.

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by Daedalus

 

and as i've said before, what purpose would be served by him remaining in the country?

Sure me for thinking people should stand up and fight for what they think

in the late 1700s, the kingdom of great britian did not have the ability to remotely take over someone's horse, and make it blow up, or crash into something..they did not have the ability to fire a missile up your ass from miles away, they didn't have the abilities the federal government has at it's disposal today to suppress and silence whistleblowers....the ONLY way to ensure his safety, was to leave...how can you not see this?

Russia and China doesn't have the same 'capability' really?

Wonder where that student from China is who stopped that tank today and Russia on long list of what Russia can do quite a bit including radiation assassination.

sure, they have those capabilities as well, but what purpose would be served by them using those capabilities on him?

i KNOW you're not stupid, so please stop deliberately missing the point.

if he stayed here, he would be dead, or in a hole somewhere....the story would be buried, and none of us would know a thing about it..better to live to fight another day...

Originally posted by ColCurious
reply to post by NickK3

 

I just heard John Kerry on the news, demanding from Russia that they act in accordance with applicable law.

I'm curious to see what the US gov. considers as "applicable"... especially now that even their allies feel alienated by the unjust behaviour of the current US administration experienced in recent weeks.

edit on 24-6-2013 by ColCurious because: (no reason given)

I wondered about this one as well, especially as there is zero extradition treaty between Russia and the USA.

Russians are saying he's in a holding area in the airport, hasn't actually passed customs or legally entered Russia at this point so they're not legally responsible - yet. The area of the airport he's in is like a diplomatic grey area.

I'm left wondering what John Kerry means by applicable law, when none exists?