Amnesty International weighs in on Snowden

Originally posted by Kryscent
What i didn't understand so far is this:
Did the guy release only information related to NSA/CIA/other intel organization spying on everyone everywhere OR did he also release info that could potentially weaken USA's defense system [whatever that info might be].
If it's the former, let the guy be. If the it's the later, yes, he committed treason.

This brings up another good point.
Is the information he also released for the defense of the nation or for defending Multi National Corporations and Central Banks Interests in America as well as across the world on Tax Payer Dollars?

I mean, who is all this secrecy for to begin with, for the Common American or the top elite?

This will make no difference to the average American.

WHY are we in all these countries that are no of our business to begin with that are not attacking our borders nor country?

Again, I think the flashlight has been re-directed toward all about Snowden rather than the monsters running our goverment for thier own political and monetary gratifications and trampling on our rights in the process.

Forget about Snowden.

What about the Criminals in our Government?

Originally posted by Daedalus

i never said "current administration", i said "current SOP"....which could have originated several administrations ago...

Way to cover all your bases. Vague but using words like "current"..........Sounds alot like double talk.

Originally posted by Daedalus

When/where? as i said, i can find nothing recent.

Well, with the way "current" applies to your frame of thought, I would think last years info would be good enough for you....

Originally posted by Daedalus

those journalists? read about the damn cases...

Ive read those cases. Again there is NO solid proof that this Administration is KILLING Whistle Blowers. Period.

Originally posted by Daedalus

yes, YOU brought up GITMO, not me....you claimed i had said there were american citizens being held in gitmo....is reading really THAT much of an issue for you?

I didnt claim anything except Gitmo is where they throw people away. I "asked" if there were American whistleblowers being held there. There isnt any. Whistleblowers have the freedom to use the press or official channels, even if this administration doesnt like them. You do know what a whistleblower is right?

Originally posted by Daedalus


and wow...i guess somehow, while i was asleep, GITMO became the ONLY prison in the entire country...

It was given to you as a place where this Government throws people away with out ANY rights. Even in regular prisons, you have rights.

So yes, you are asleep.

Originally posted by Daedalus


yes, i used killed for murdered, and hole for prison, or other undesirable place of incarceration.....

No.

You said Whistleblowers are killed. You have yet to show me proof. Its pure Conjecture on your part.

You have NO hard proof.


Example:

Obama kills Americans Citizens..

Proof:

He was the son of Anwar al-Awlaki, who was also born in America, who was also an American citizen, and who was killed by drone two weeks before his son was, along with another American citizen named Samir Khan. Of course, both Anwar al-Awlaki and Samir Khan were, at the very least, traitors to their country -- they had both gone to Yemen and taken up with Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, and al-Awlaki had proven himself an expert inciter of those with murderous designs against America and Americans: the rare man of words who could be said to have a body count. When he was killed, on September 30, 2011, President Obama made a speech about it; a few months later, when the Obama administraton's public-relations campaign about its embrace of what has come to be called "targeted killing" reached its climax in a front-page story in the New York Times that presented the President of the United States as the last word in deciding who lives and who dies, he was quoted as saying that the decision to put Anwar al-Awlaki on the kill list -- and then to kill him -- was "an easy one." But Abdulrahman al-Awlaki wasn't on an American kill list.


Nor was he a member of Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninusla. Nor was he "an inspiration," as his father styled himself, for those determined to draw American blood; nor had he gone "operational," as American authorities said his father had, in drawing up plots against Americans and American interests. He was a boy who hadn't seen his father in two years, since his father had gone into hiding. He was a boy who knew his father was on an American kill list and who snuck out of his family's home in the early morning hours of September 4, 2011, to try to find him. He was a boy who was still searching for his father when his father was killed, and who, on the night he himself was killed, was saying goodbye to the second cousin with whom he'd lived while on his search, and the friends he'd made. He was a boy among boys, then; a boy among boys eating dinner by an open fire along the side of a road when an American drone came out of the sky and fired the missiles that killed them all.

How Team Obama Justifies the Killing of a 16-Year-Old American

You see how this Works?

Originally posted by Miracula

Originally posted by Daedalus
what FF was talking about is him allegedly giving away "state secrets", and "national defense secrets", and "hurting america"...when there was absolutely ZERO proof that any such thing had occurred, and trying to pass it off as verified fact.

Did he reveal anything that the Taliban and Al-Quaeda wasn't aware of given that I have heard there are indications that they had changed their behavior even before Snowden due to their awareness?

he spilled the beans on PRISM....you know that massive illegal intel gathering operation that spies on citizens, with the help of most of the major giants in tech and social media.....

i doubt the "terrorists" were communicating on facebook, or using google to look up bomb designs, or using apple or microsoft systems to do anything that knowing about would be worth knowing....

and since the "terrorists" work for us, the whole thing is a sham....so, no...he didn't, to the best of my, or really anyone's knowledge, release anything that the "terrorists" didn't already know, or that would impact anything other than their spying on their own citizens without warrants...

Originally posted by thegreatone68
reply to post by Daedalus

 

Basicly what im saying is i really dought hes sitting in some room at a airport afraid to come back home for nothing. Somebody everywhere hes been has most likely took a look at the supposed laptop he is carrying with him. And maybe i am being harsh about hunting him down and killing.................not god bless america.we have no room for turncoats and traitors. Im sure he took some kind of oath before he joined those organizations.

but again, this is where i'm running into the issue.....everyone is acting as if he's some evil traitor mastermind, running around with his little laptop with a "F**k America" sticker on it, and showing anyone who will look, every single thing he has on that machine...

there's no proof that this is the case....

i don't see him as a traitor, or a hero....i see him as a guy who brought to light, and into the view of the american people, some things that it's government was doing, that they shoudln't be...i can't fault him for that. what he exposed was wrong, and SHOULD have been brought to our attention. furthermore, it should never have been, to begin with..

reply to post by sonnny1


i'm done with you as well.

you are cherry-picking, ignoring points, and just doing your damnedest to argue for the sake of arguing...not playing your game..

reply to post by Daedalus




If you're are going to play the game of "know it all" then take the time to back up your responses. That's all I asked.
You offered no substantial proof to back up your claims. Just conjecture.........


Peace.

Originally posted by sonnny1
reply to post by Daedalus

 

If you're are going to play the game of "know it all" then take the time to back up your responses. That's all I asked.
You offered no substantial proof to back up your claims. Just conjecture.........


Peace.

edit on 26-6-2013 by sonnny1 because: (no reason given)

in your opinion.

it's kinda sad that you find it necessary to twist things, in order to "win" an argument you started....sad indeed..

you have yourself a good one.

this seems to have turned into a "is he a traitor or not" discussion (still wading my way through all the pages but have jumped towards the end). i guess in many ways that depends on where one is or is and what country they come from. for those not IN the US i imagine most will go with the fact that he is NOT a TRAITOR. in fact he may be considered a "super patriot of the WORLD", as one of the things he has let out is that regardless of if this "spying" is being done to US residents or not, that they ARE spying on EVERYONE ELSE in the world. in fact the US GOVERNMENT while denying that they are spying on their citizens has ADMITTED that they are spying on everyone else. while i don't agree with spying on us citizens in the US, i even more disagree with them feeling they have the RIGHT to spy on the public citizens of the rest of the world. just for this fact alone i have to say even if he can be considered a traitor to the US government he is definitely NO TRAITOR to the rest of the WORLD. as such the rest of the world should not only be applauding what he has done but should be doing everything in their power to protect him from the "persecution" that is awaiting him back in the US.

now many reasons people are considering him a "traitor" is that he has been traveling (as far as we know anyway) through "enemy" territories like China (Hong Kong), and Russia. i have to ask where else could he have gone with less risk of being turned over to the US government? Canada? the European Union? think about it, these are Allies of the US, chances are ANY allies would almost IMMEDIATELY turn him in. therefore he really had no good option BUT to go to and through "enemy" countries, if he wanted to stay free. as the saying goes, "the enemy of my enemy, is my friend". just as if you were wanting to escape say China, chance are you would turn to the US or their allies, not go to Russia who would be more likely to send you back, (kinda like how China sends defectors back to North Korea knowing full well the persecution that will be awaiting the "defector" there).

i will say so far i have seen NO EVIDENCE that he has let any "real" secrets out. ALL governments KNOW that ALL governments are trying to spy on them, friends and foes alike. this is a part of the game of "statehood". what IS different is this is not about spying on COUNTRIES, this is spying on EVERY PERSON ON EARTH. THAT is intolerable and so we ALL owe this man our thanks for a job WELL DONE. for letting us all KNOW what many of us have long suspected, but could never PROVE. now that there is the "proof" something should be done about it. in fact if the UN was really about the people of the world, they would be putting SANCTIONS in place against the US for this GROSS VIOLATION of the citizens of the worlds PRIVACY, until such a time as the NSA and like institutions are DISBANDED and not replaced without severe over watching of say a panel from all other governments. the "right to privacy" is NOT only valid for citizens of the US, but are the UNALIENABLE RIGHT of EVERYONE in the WORLD. another thought is that perhaps the "world court" should have to provide "warrants" to any country that wishes to "wiretap", intercept e-mails/net traffic etc, for anyone party that resides outside of the country wishing to do it, with the same "proofs" provided that would indicate a REASON for doing so on an individual basis.

in fact every government should be lining up and thanking Snowden for providing this proof and then charging the the members of the US government, those in the NSA and those that work for the NSA on charges against breaking the different countries privacy/anti-wiretapping laws. not to mention of course a class action lawsuit against the same for "invasion of privacy" on behalf of every person who does not live in the US, (say to the tune of a few thousand dollars each), for this gross "breach of world privacy".

reply to post by Daedalus


O.k. Now i read that he believes leakers should be shot. Game match point.

What I do not understand, and maybe it is me, but why did he not just travel to his end point, Ecuador, before releasing this information and then stay there in that country and request asylum? After all right now it seems like he did not have enough foresight to research about what countries he could take refuge in, and how to get there?

Combine that with the incompetence that the Federal government is showing in trying to apprehend him, by failing to talk to our allies, even other law enforcement to pin him down kind of makes one think that maybe the governments of the USA, China and Russia are playing the world with this.

reply to post by generik


I think you're right about the discussion being about "is he a traitor or not?" Im not an US citizen but at the same time I can't see him as a hero if he committed treason to his country. As I previously said, telling the whole world "Guys, everyone is being spied on, no matter where they live" is not treason.

But it is important to know what exactly has he done. As far as I'm concerned, I know he revealed some documents but the bits and pieces of news I read weren't complete. In addition, every news report would show him in different colors. [I should know, as I studied journalism]

If he's scared for his life [even though he was well aware of the consequences] it's only normal he would go countries that are not Allies to the USA. This makes me think he revealed a little more than he should have, but I hope I'm wrong.

Originally posted by Daedalus

Originally posted by zeeon

Now you are asking me what I believe - do not confuse my personal beliefes with the reasons why we have PRISM / NSA Spying now.

I believe to spend billions of dollars to prevent something that I, personally, have a 99% chance of never encountering (terrorism) is stupid and wasteful. I was, and still am against the Patriot Act and the NSA activities - but not because they are spying on me.

I am against this because I refuse to live in fear of something that has such a little chance of affecting me, my family or friends at all, in our lifetime. I am more afraid of the asshole driver on the freeway on my way to work every day then some radical jihadist. I am more afraid of dying of heart disease then some radical jihadist.

Yet, *I* didn't vote for this. I shouted and told as many people as I could not to allow the Patriot Act.
My minority voice (minority in the sense that my opinion was not of the majority) was drowned out by the multitude of American's who were so scared of Terrorism that they allowed the Patriot Act to come into existence. The very same American's now who cry foul now that we know the NSA is spying on American's to prevent the very thing THEY ASKED THEM TO DO.

It so very hypocritical to see so many people in here cry foul at the NSA when it was they who were the very ones who brought this upon the rest of us. It's also so hyprocritical to see the multitudes of posters in here congratulate and praise a traitor who betrayed his country - the very same country that was doing the very thing the MAJORITY OF AMERICANS ASKED THEM TO DO.

I am here to explain to people that they got what they asked for.

i'm asking you to defend your position on PRISM, and explain why you are of the opinion that it is necessary...

you're sitting here defending a program that is clearly illegal.

i don't even know why i'm still replying to you....

you claim to be in disagreement with programs, and other things the government is doing, and then in the next breath, you defend them....you make no sense...you seem to believe that the federal government is not subject to the law (by implying that the constitution isn't supreme law), and that they can do what they want, because it's somehow necessary to national security.....

so i will ask you again: Do you believe that PRISM is a national security secret, and essential to the preservation of the historically traditional american way of life, and the continued existence of these united states?

Do I need to quote to you what you asked me? You asked me what I believe not 'defend your position on PRISM'. Also, there is a difference between what I believe, and the reality of the situation.
Reality and personal beliefs are almost always mutually exclusive - it's a rarity when someones beliefs line up with the way things really are.

What that being said - I already told you I don't think it's necessary. But I'm not the not the majority of Americans. You just can't seem to wrap your head around that concept can you?

It's not my fault you don't understand how the law works. By the strictest definition, regarding the 4th, 'probable cause' excerised by law enforcement to search your things should be illegal - because that's not in the 4th is it? Law enforcement don't need a warrant if an officer believes he has 'probable cause' - yet can still search and sieze your property.

Yet this is perfectly legal, and has been for decades. Probable Cause has been abused for YEARS by crooked law enforcement for all sorts of reasons, yet nobody is calling it's constitutionality into question.

The point being is that the NSA was given the authority to do what it is doing by our elected legislative officials. It has oversight (albeit questionable oversight). It was made legal - it's "Constitutionality" has yet to be determined.
That is for a Court of Law to decide - not you or me. We may believe it's unconstitutional - yet that doesn't make it so.

I don't mean to be insulting (as you quite clearly do), but how many times are you going to ask the same question? Until you arrive at an answer you like, or can understand?

Snowden just said what most savy internet users ALREADY WERE THINKING.

If you didn't know, you might also not know how to set up and instal a mysql database for a game server or code a website in html / flash or cheat and use dreamweaver either or.

What I'm saying is, Snowden isn't a super hero nor a Super villain, it's a confirmer of what was already common gossip, to say he COMPROMISED NATIONAL SECURITY is to say he ended world hunger as well.

I am waiting to see what else he has to say, maybe that's why the US Government is spewing a fecal storm.

I am with the one guy who suggested, if snowden did all this research as is being claimed, why isn't he in equador already, like 3 weeks ago?

Has anyone thought maybe, SNOWDEN works for the NSA STILL?

Would be a good push to overall some otherwise un-needed changes to much of the way of life for americans, in the name of national re-security...

Firstly, Id like to say that if youre really going to make the claim that Snowden gave the Chinese and Russians critical intel youd better cite it. so far ive heard some very well constructed arguments against Snowden being a hero, but those arguments to this point have been based on suppositions "gut feelings" and "Ill betchas" and not cited material. Until we know it for a fact then saying that Snowden shared intel with the Russians is as good as saying I he also handed over China our launch codes. I personally haven't seen anything accept suppositions and maybes as to whether or not Snowden shared anything at all with the Chinese or the Russians. And Im pretty sure neither country is actually our enemies. That is a term reserved for people acting against you and not people observing international laws. I could be wrong and ill admit it if I am but I have to see some evidence first.

Well done Amnesty. The more the details that are made public of his and our Rights, the better!

International Law will keep Snowden safe thought the US government should be held to rights over

a) illegal snooping in the first place
b) not disclosing the snooping (covert activity contrary to individual human rights to privacy)
c) revoking a citizen's passport
d) treating a citizen as a criminal when they are probably innocent according to internatonal law and weren't tried in the first place

and probably a whole load of other things.