Amnesty International weighs in on Snowden

Originally posted by namehere
things like this are why i hate the U.N and other "international" organizations, their very existence seeks to destroy the sovereignty of nations and their laws under the guise of protecting "human rights" and preventing war. it's all a ruse to destroy nations and people fall for it because their desperation to live in a better world where there is no suffering or strife. why should traitors get off for their crimes just because a hostile nation grants them asylum? might as well just give Russia all of our secrets while we're at it.

You seem not to understand the difference between a government keeping national security secrets from it's known enemies and that government keeping secrets from it's own citizens when that government seeks to spy on and covertly control it's citizens. - something they are Never allowed to do because of our Constitution.

Edward is not a traitor. The US Military's laws on the chain of command and keeping these secrets become Null and Void under international law when they are the ones committing the crimes against The American people. This Amnesty International is simply looking out for the Rights of We The People. How could Snowden take this information up the chain of command the proper way when he Knows they are corrupt and will bury the information and him with it? No.. He HAD to get out for the good of We The People.

I supposed you'd think George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were traitors too?

Originally posted by namehere

Originally posted by Daedalus

um...news flash: CISPA was never passed into law...

it's still a proposed law, that makes it not a law...

well then it seems my last post is moot and he really is a traitor and the NSA violated nothing, i mean it's his word against the government, if legally the NSA can't push things as far as he claims and they've denied doing such and there's no evidence to support his claims.

edit on 25-6-2013 by namehere because: (no reason given)

I am an american and I dislike democrats and republicans so much its borderline *safe hater* which is typically a zionist insult for those that are jewish but dislike the state of israel.

The same applies to an out of control governmnet like the usa. Look at the economy, look at the wars, look at the spying, look at the constant lies, etc. Ron Paul calls snowden a hero and Alex Jones calls him a hero. Thats all the confirmation I need.

reply to post by Daedalus


Yeah people are missing the point of which is I don't nor will I ever have a slobbering love affair with Snowden or his kind.

Nothing says I have to however people are free to hype Snowden up,. and they also love to hype up how evil the US is.

Twelve years ago 90% of the American people would be opposed to the NSA databasing all our communications. Now I believe a majority actually support it. The CIA and NSA are good at manipulating public opinion. They used to call it mind control. They started studying it in the 1950s and get better at it every year. The CIA controls journalists at all the news networks. They give them talking points. They have become very predictable, however. Everyone knows that they would try to discredit the whistleblower and focus attention on him rather than the crimes that the government has committed. You have to remember that what the government is doing is actually against the very laws that they managed to get passed that violate our constitutional rights. They have screwed up big time. Snowden got the job with sole purpose to become a leaker. This shows how weak American intelligence is. Everybody knows what they are doing, and an average citizen manages to get himself in a position where he has access to a lot of classified information. The Snowden haters have said that he has delusions of grandeur and that he couldn't actually do all the things that he said he could like knowing the locations of CIA agents or spying on Obama. Well, that may not be true if his sole purpose was to collect information. It is possible that he has actually spied on Obama. What information does he have?

reply to post by FlyersFan


Actually no, none of that 'anti american' hate is irrational. And there's no 'trying' involved, America IS as bad as China and Russia, maybe you don't see it, but everyone outside the patriotic bubble Americans live in sees it.

If you're too blind to see the similarities between the US, China an Russia then maybe it's not worth debating this issue with you. One thing that really annoys me are people who are hellbent on defending the US and acting like it's the perfect country, people who are seemingly brainwashed with false pride thrust on them by their own government. To deny that any of the issues cartenz mentioned aren't serious and that they haven't happened is just making you look ignorant and making it look as if you definitely have an agenda.

The US is HEAVILY INFLUENCED by religion, while it is a secular government, that doesn't mean that ideas and concepts generated and derived from religious tradition don't influence congress and the decisions made by your leaders. Just look at the issue of abortion in the US, you have RELIGIOUS members of congress making decisions that effect an entire country based on their own religious views, now tell me that's a 100% secular government. Your argument is that no laws are made by attempts from christian lobby groups, but you're wrong. Laws are and are not passed because of religious morals, rather than for the betterment of the country.

Heard the story about the street in (Boston I think?) where there are two FALSE abortion clinics in the same street as a real one, so that women seeking abortion are tricked into entering the wrong one and are then fed and then brutally chastised by crazy religious idiots, and are unable to get their abortion that day because they've eaten. Things like that happen every day, think of how many peoples lives have been completely ruined by ignorant people.

John Lennon's 'Imagine' wasn't pulled off the radio because radio stations decided it would pacify a country and mess up the governments plan, it was pulled for that reason by local and state officials. DO you seriously think a radio station is going to have the idea to pull one of the most influential, popular songs of all time off the radio incase it stopped and diffused national hate? And I like how you seemed to justify what you said by saying the song sucks... your personal opinion on a song doesn't make it okay for it to be pulled.

Yeah China has the one child policy, but that doesn't mean people can only have one child, it just means that for every other child you have, you pay extra money to the government. It's not an ideal law, and maybe it is a bit controlling, but they sure as hell don't prohibit you from having as many children as you like. And no, abortions are not forced. I'm not sure where you read that but maybe it was referencing personal scenarios where family members force a woman to get an abortion, because they sure as hell don't force every woman with one child to abort their babies.

The US supporting the taliban has EVERYTHING to do with China supporting North Korea. If you bring something like that to an argument, expect people to bring up the fact that the US have done things EQUALLY as bad. The US supported a military group that wreaked havoc on their own country and their own people. They supported terrorists, then when things got too inconvenient and out of control they declared a war on terrorism. And even with that war on terror still waging, the US has decided to support rebel fighter groups (terrorists) on humanitarian grounds, because it correlates with their new agenda.

Minimum wage is not a 'living wage'. It's for unskilled labor. And it isn't even close to what China does with political prisoners being slave labor. To compare the two is pathetic.
But minimum wage should still be able to provide an individual with money to live, even if the wage is for unskilled labor. Maybe not relevant, but certainly not pathetic. How can you sit there and talk about China forcing political prisoners into slave labor like it's 100% fact when we don't have the slightest idea of what is truly done with each and every political prisoner. Not to mention the US is certainly not any kinder to it's prisoners, just look at Guantanamo and the way they are ruthlessly trying to get their hands on people like Assange and Snowden, look at how many people with inside knowledge or who may pose a threat to the governments secrecy just 'disappear'.

You seem to be on complete denial of what your government has done. I'm not anti american on any level, but seeing someone as seemingly intelligent as you saying these kind of things really annoys me. Every country does good and bad things, and you seem to focus on the good with the US and then the bad with China and Russia because it suits you.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

He had a lot of choices ....
- Don't say anything at all.
- Tell the American people about the NSA spying on them, and then stay and fight like a patriot.
- Tell the American people about the NSA spying on them, and then run.
- Tell the American people about the NSA spying on them, and then run and help America's enemies (China and Russia) by telling state secrets that weaken the defense of the USA.

He decided to do the last .... which means he isn't a patriot. He has harmed America.

I don't buy that for a second. If he had national security secrets they would not let him roam so freely. Sure you can apply the technology the NSA used for spying on We The People to China and Russia and the NSA I'm sure didn't want them to know that but hey.. the NSA should have thought of that before they spied on it's own people - they broke the LAW First, therefore nothing they say or do will have legal weight..

Do lawyers/ judges allow criminals to cover up their crimes by persecuting the victim? This is all about a corrupt government trying to save face because they were caught red handed. You people who agree with this corrupt government really gonna tell me your a patriot? How you can side with these criminals is beyond me.

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by Daedalus

 

Yeah people are missing the point of which is I don't nor will I ever have a slobbering love affair with Snowden or his kind.

Nothing says I have to however people are free to hype Snowden up,. and they also love to hype up how evil the US is.

and that replies to what i said, how?

you completely didn't even address what i said to you, or what i asked you...what gives?

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by Daedalus

 

Yeah people are missing the point of which is I don't nor will I ever have a slobbering love affair with Snowden or his kind.

Nothing says I have to however people are free to hype Snowden up,. and they also love to hype up how evil the US is.

His kind?

On onehand you condem the goverment and on the other you support it and claim one should be loyal to it?

You cant have it both ways!

Should your forefathers have remained loyal to the british?

And dont blabber on about russia been more evil than the usa we get it no ones denying it, at least im not.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by Daedalus

 

YOU HAVE NO PROOF that state secrets were divulged to foreign governments.....no proof whatsoever...

you are basing this assertion on your OPINION...which is not proof, or fact....

WIth all due respect, there is no question whatsoever that he has divuldged secrets to non-Americans, if not to agents of a foreign nation. That second part would be a pain in the butt to prove in court but isn't necessary to prove, either.

On the face of it, one can say that of course he exposed secrets, because if he hadn't, his value as a whistle blower itself would have been almost worthless. The question is just where the line is, for those who agree there is one, between whistle blowing bad conduct and treasonous compromise of National Security.



That refers to his own releases through the Guardian and other media he has communicated with. His choice to give fine detail of internal operations/methods for intelligence gathering in China. That's pretty far beyond looking to bust U.S. abuses.

There is something else to consider...and it's something I do consider when thinking about the actions in this case.




However.. it's not Snowden's place to start deciding what about international intelligence games, he only ever could have seen small segments of, are now fair game to burn from the US side so the other can grow stronger by it.

Crusading to break up actions by abusive agencies was noble. Standing up and being willing to remain standing for his beliefs was noble. Peddling ALL he knows for safety and taking no consequence in the process starts looking a whole lot less noble, IMO.

I think there is so much more to this. We need to think more than in the way of a singular sovereign state. Whatever Snowden has seen or not seen is not exactly known and the waters are muddied, we don't even know who all is in the mélange or even if those are supposed to not know, did already know. From that point of view Daedalus is likely correct. Anything published so far, and that includes The Guardian needs a fine toothcombing.
What we do now know is that Snowden has rubber stamped what was really already known, that we were all subject to surveillance, and by default all types of manipulation through all sorts of known active channels.
Sorry to have curtail all your post which would have been better in situ.

reply to post by Daedalus

sure, they have those capabilities as well, but what purpose would be served by them using those capabilities on him?

Conjecture

i KNOW you're not stupid, so please stop deliberately missing the point.

True unlike Snowden i finished high school.

And the point of that comment relates how?

if he stayed here, he would be dead, or in a hole somewhere....the story would be buried, and none of us would know a thing about it..better to live to fight another day...

Conjecture

Originally posted by crazyewok

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by Daedalus

 

Yeah people are missing the point of which is I don't nor will I ever have a slobbering love affair with Snowden or his kind.

Nothing says I have to however people are free to hype Snowden up,. and they also love to hype up how evil the US is.

His kind?

On onehand you condem the goverment and on the other you support it and claim one should be loyal to it?

You cant have it both ways!

Should your forefathers have remained loyal to the british?

And dont blabber on about russia been more evil than the usa we get it no ones denying it, at least im not.

edit on 25-6-2013 by crazyewok because: (no reason given)

Yep, seen other posts almost ad verbatim as the Neo's it's the political double edged sword. No matter we ALL need to stay focused on what has occurred, and that is everybody and their granny is being spied upon.

reply to post by crazyewok

His kind?

Yeah his kind people who cut and run

On onehand you condem the goverment and on the other you support it and claim one should be loyal to it?

Feel free to quote that oh that's right because never said it.

And dont blabber on about russia been more evil than the usa we get it no ones denying it, at least im not.

Why not?

Saying two countries with their combined bloody history and both have the largest spy networks in the world has no relevance to this disscusion.

Sorry I forgot facts don't fit in to the false narrative being shoved down peoples throats because they don't believe in the 'goodness of Russia or China or Snowden's hearts'.

reply to post by neo96


If he did not run chances are his message would not have got out. Do you think they would have let a reporter see him in prison or let him give a public statement?


Just because russia and china are more more evil and oppresive does not give the usa a exuse to practice its own gorm of oppresion even if it does not compare to the others.

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by crazyewok

 

His kind?

Yeah his kind people who cut and run.

what do you think would likely happen if he stayed in the usa after going public about the NSA spying program? You really think he would be safe? Just admit you want martyrs and people would be less antagonistic with you.

You have stated multiple times your distrust of the american government, are pro freedom, right wing, pro 2nd amendment, pro 1st amendment. Yet NOW that snowden did the dirty work for us you and a few other "gun nuts" claim all kinds of bull#.

reply to post by crazyewok


Yo

Waiting on this to be quoted

On onehand you condem the goverment and on the other you support it and claim one should be loyal to it?

Here' some help

First post in this thread

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Now go on quote exactly where I saiid this

On onehand you condem the goverment and on the other you support it and claim one should be loyal to it?

reply to post by EarthCitizen07

what do you think would likely happen if he stayed in the usa after going public about the NSA spying program?

Don't do 'woulda's' save that for those who love conjecture.

You have stated multiple times your distrust of the american government, are pro freedom, right wing, pro 2nd amendment, pro 1st amendment. Yet NOW that snowden did the dirty work for us you and a few other "gun nuts" claim all kinds of bull#.

And Snowden ran to places who are none of those thing the point is?

Originally posted by crazyewok
reply to post by neo96

 

If he did not run chances are his message would not have got out. Do you think they would have let a reporter see him in prison or let him give a public statement?


Just because russia and china are more more evil and oppresive does not give the usa a exuse to practice its own gorm of oppresion even if it does not compare to the others.

Russia and china are not more evil. At least not russia after the collapse of the soviet union. China perhaps, but after patriot act and the fema concentration camp rumors I would say we are heading on a more dangerous path in the near future.

reply to post by neo96


The hypocrisy from some of you "freedom loving patriots" is stunning.

Did he get the message out properly? Yes!

Did he lower the risk factor? Yes!

So what exactly is your problem? What secrets did he spill over that russia or china do not already have and need from the usa? They have nukes, biological weapons, chemical weapons. and possibly exotic weapons like usa.

reply to post by EarthCitizen07

The hypocrisy from some of you "freedom loving patriots" is stunning

Yes the hypocrisy is stunning summed up best with Russia and China



Did he get the message out properly? No!

Did he lower the risk factor? According to some people in this thread he has a drone target on his back.

So what exactly is your problem?

I don't respect anyone who runs away from their problems rather simply.

What secrets did he spill over that russia or china do not already have and need from the usa?

Have to ask Putin and Xi Jinping

They have nukes, biological weapons, chemical weapons. and possibly exotic weapons like usa.

Yep that they got from US by SPYING.

Originally posted by Daedalus

Originally posted by Shadowphile

Originally posted by namehere

Originally posted by Daedalus

um...news flash: CISPA was never passed into law...

it's still a proposed law, that makes it not a law...

well then it seems my last post is moot and he really is a traitor and the NSA violated nothing, i mean it's his word against the government, if legally the NSA can't push things as far as he claims and they've denied doing such and there's no evidence to support his claims.

edit on 25-6-2013 by namehere because: (no reason given)

??

What a strange twist of conclusions.

ROFL

i almost couldn't put it better myself....

i mean, yes, i used significantly more words in my reply, but the overall thought was roughly the same.

It had to be pointed out , it was inevitable