Amnesty International weighs in on Snowden

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by EarthCitizen07

 

The hypocrisy from some of you "freedom loving patriots" is stunning

Yes the hypocrisy is stunning summed up best with Russia and China

(I refuse to reply to 10 point quotes so i will keep it to just this one.)


Obama was actually publicly complaining about china's alleged cyberattacks/hacks when this story broke.
All hypocrisy was right on the table for everyone to see with that one making it a PR nightmare that is going to need and get a lot of spin somewhere down the line.

reply to post by neo96


You keep thinking russia and china are more evil than america, while downplaying how evil the american administrations have been ever since 9-11-2001, and you will be in for a rude awakening pretty soon. Don't say people didn't tell you that later.

MSM doesn't cut the mustard for disclosure in america.

reply to post by Shadowphile

Obama was actually publicly complaining about china's alleged cyberattacks/hacks when this story broke.

And now all anyone wants to talk about is Snowden not the trillions stolen by the same means the administration is getting codemned for and ran right in to China's arms.

That should make the whole Snowden deal 'suspect' to everyone.

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
reply to post by neo96

 

You keep thinking russia and china are more evil than america, while downplaying how evil the american administrations have been ever since 9-11-2001, and you will be in for a rude awakening pretty soon. Don't say people didn't tell you that later.

MSM doesn't cut the mustard for disclosure in america.

Because they are and those who keep trying to say the US is worse is in for a rude awakening.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by crazyewok
It weakens your goverment not you.

It weakens our national defense which puts us all in danger.

you may have accept the Russians and chinese as tempoary alllys if you want change..

Russia and China ??

Those governments spy on their citizens the same, if not worse, than the NSA spys on us. And they are milking Snowden for all the information they can from him in order to further weaken the USA and strengthen themselves. China and Russia are NOT allies of the USA. They are not looking out for us and they dont' care about us.

if it wasnt for china usa wouldnt exist,in any shape or form,so deal with it

"Regardless of where Snowden ends up he has the right to seek asylum. For such a claim to succeed, he must demonstrate a well-founded fear of persecution. Even if such a claim failed, no country can return a person to another country where there is a substantial risk of ill-treatment,” said Brown.

“His forced transfer to the USA would put him at great risk of human rights violations and must be challenged.”

This was the last lines of the article from the OP. I thought it should be posted just in case somebody might not have read the whole article.





Thruthseek3r

Snowden is going to find amnesty in a foreign country will be just as bad or worse then being in jail in the US

How do you make money or open a bank account when the US government can hack the bank and take your money

They could erase you birth and any other public records that you ever lived.

Or they could put him in so much debt that no bank or business would talk to you in any country.

Originally posted by namehere
things like this are why i hate the U.N and other "international" organizations, their very existence seeks to destroy the sovereignty of nations and their laws under the guise of protecting "human rights" and preventing war. it's all a ruse to destroy nations and people fall for it because their desperation to live in a better world where there is no suffering or strife. why should traitors get off for their crimes just because a hostile nation grants them asylum? might as well just give Russia all of our secrets while we're at it.

Ah, Poopoo,

EXCEPT the US has NO ISSUE pulling out the Human Rights Card when it Suits THEIR AGENDAS, WARS, HUMAN RIGHT ABUSES, GENOCIDES in part, COUPS and BLATANTLY AND FLAGRANTLY DISREGARDING

THE

SOVEREIGNTY OF OTHER NATIONS AND GOD GIVEN HUMAN RIGHTS TO CIVILIANS EVERYWHERE,

Oh, Thats right, THOSE RIGHTS only apply to American EURO CENTRIC WHITE MAN

Everyone else can just f off, Yea oh how we Forget!

United States of ABSURDISTAN and HYPOCRISY

Where Spewing one thing to BULLY others and yet all the while being SATAN in the world, is deemed as some Righteous thing,

Because well, the DEVINE made them GOD ALMIGHTY.

More and more ANY human Rights claim that Absurdistan makes against North Korea, sounds like the rambling of an Insane Sociopath,

Because if Anything, the USA has FORFEIGHTED ALL AND ANY RIGHTS TO STAND FOR ANYTHING

OTHER THAN

TYRANNY!

BY THEIR OWN HUMAN RIGHT ABUSES AND GROSS ACTIONS! EVEN AGAINST THEIR VERY OWN CHILDREN IN THEIR OWN BACKYARD!

It Was after all, the USA that Paraded herself like the BABYLON WHORE JEZEBEL spewing to the ENTIRE WORLD her Beacon of HUMAN RIGHTS and UNITED NATIONS rhetoric,

Like an immoral King caught in Adultry attempting to BLACKMAIN THE CHURCH HE PROPPED UP...

The US NOW doesn't want to HEAR about IT'S Dispicable Crimes,

Well IF YA CAN'T TAKE THE FIRE OF INTERNATIONAL CRITICISM, WELL DESERVED I MIGHT ADD, THEN YA SHOULDN'T TURN UP THE HEAT,

And as for Sovereignty, That's Laughable,

NERO had more RESPECT for SOVEIGNTRY THAN THE UNITED STATES OF GLOBAL BULLIES.

NO MORE is USA A BEACON FOR ANYTHING, BY HER OWN DOING...

She has ZERO place now to condemn Any other nation, NONE, ZILCH, NADA...it's the equivalent of Charles Manson condemning Son of Sam,

So, if the International Community is having a field day, well they've been Trained by the Best hypocrites now haven't they???

face it, whatever Decency there is, will Now have to be within Each individual, NATIONS HAVE FAILED.

And the USA, has FAILED THE WORST..BETRAYED EVERY PRINCIPLE SHE EVER STOOD FOR...at least the Others, didn't Parade themselves as some Righteous Lying WHORE for the EVIL One,

While IN BED with EVIL. THAT takes a whole other Special talent altogether!

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Deflection attempt and failure on your part.

With all due respect, that's what you're doing. A question has been asked of you several times now by several people, yet you ignore it, deflect and do anything you can but answer it.

You continue to claim that Snowden has turned over all these secrets to Russia and China as if it is absolute fact, when it has been said to you many times that you are speculating at best.

Since you continue to go on as if it is 100% certain truth, it has been asked many times now for you to essentially prove your claim. Where's your source?

Here are a few things you have said:

Snowden didn't stop there but instead went to China and spilled state secrets of the international type that weakened America's national security.

China acknowledges that Snowden has told them about how the USA hacks into China .. it's government, it's universities, it's military, ... how it's done .... all of it.

Where? Where did China acknowledge this? I am looking and searching and I am not finding anything about that. Perhaps my google-fu has gotten a bit rusty. It has been a while since I was active here.

So, help us out here. Where is your source? Where is the proof for your claim? Do you have one to provide?

At this point, your dodging the question is only hurting your claim. It makes it seem as though you are incapable of defending your claim. Perhaps you aren't?

With all due respect, perhaps it is time to provide that evidence for your claim. And if you can't provide that evidence....Then perhaps you should drop that "point" until you can, because it's making your claim look rather weak.

I argue that the conclusion you jumped to is ultimately just weak speculation at best. If you can't prove it then you should not be trying to pass it off as an absolute. ( That's the issue people are having with your conclusion. You are coming off as if you want everyone to believe that it is 100% truth.... )

Perhaps if you admit that you are merely speculating, you might be taken a bit more seriously by me on this one...But at this point, I just can't...Not yet.

Please know I don't mean this in an ugly way at all. I do have a lot of respect for you. But with all due respect, you're better than this. As they say, "Put up or shut up" .... Well...Don't shut up. I like talking to you.

Put up or admit that you are speculating and don't actually know whether it is fact or not.

Common sense is not evidence. You don't have to call him a hero. But you don't have to call him a traitor either. Perhaps you should wait until the facts are all actually out, before you decide whether or not he is a hero?

Common sense is to recognize that it's not a good idea to state things as fact when we don't know if they are.

Common sense dictates that no one knows the full truth yet. Maybe we should ALL wait until we do, rather than everyone speculationg and jumping to unfounded conclusions.


All that said, you don't know what he has done with those secrets. Your speculation makes sense, but...It is just that. Speculation. Neither of us know yet. So...There is no conclusion to be made yet.

No conclusion to be made yet....Unless, you do have proof that you've been holding out on us?

Peace and love.

Checking back in, reading through the thread to see what I missed...

Wow.

I'm really surprised that the same argument continued for so many pages. Some of the more unpopular and stubborn ideologies here have come from people that I would have least expected. Individuals that I generally have a lot of respect for and look forward to their posts. I have to assume this was just one of those times where emotions and idealism got the better of them.

Surely by now you can see the issues we've all had with the "speculation" problem. I don't expect to agree with you guys all of the time, but this is one of those threads where the argument was pretty clear, IMHO.

In any event, I hope we can all learn from this in one way or another. I still have love for you guys, just a little confused as to how this thread happened the way it did.

"A wise man knows that he knows nothing."

I fear that when the rest of the info is leaked, if it is, it is going to deal a great deal more damage to the US Government than has already been done. If you believe what Assange has to say about all this, of course.

This is a pickle, for sure.

I am torn as to what to think about all of this. Notice how the US seems to stand alone in all of this. Our allies aren't speaking out. I feel that they would if they knew how this was all gonna shake out.

The fact that China and Russia are giving us the Middle Finger and not even our allies are willing to help us pressure Russia tells me that the leaks to come are quite serious indeed.

For these reasons I am still withholding judgement on the whole "is Snowden a hero or a villain" debate.

It is also clear that they media have been given their marching orders as to how and spin this story. And folks here are lapping it up.

These countries know the US spies on them. They also know HOW the US does it. The folks here who think Snowden has just ran off spouting state secrets thus far seem to think these other governments are a bunch of drooling mental deficients.

I don't blame ya, though. It is what the media tells ya and you are just parroting it here. It is a common problem in this country.

I'm just too tired and sad to reply right now....

Sleep well ....♥

This has not been a great month for the Obama administration.

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by Daedalus

 

Conjecture

You keep using that word...i don't think it means what you think it means....

here, let me help you with that...


con·jec·ture
[kuhn-jek-cher] Show IPA noun, verb, con·jec·tured, con·jec·tur·ing.
noun
1.
the formation or expression of an opinion or theory without sufficient evidence for proof.
2.
an opinion or theory so formed or expressed; guess; speculation.
3.
Obsolete . the interpretation of signs or omens.
verb (used with object)
4.
to conclude or suppose from grounds or evidence insufficient to ensure reliability.
verb (used without object)
5.
to form conjectures.
Origin:
1350–1400; (noun) Middle English < Latin conjectūra (< Middle French ) inferring, reasoning, equivalent to conject ( us ) past participle of conjicere to throw together, form a conclusion ( con- con- + -jicere, combining form of jacere to throw) + -ūra -ure; (v.) late Middle English conjecturen (< Middle French ) < Late Latin conjecturāre, derivative of the noun

Related forms
con·jec·tur·a·ble, adjective
con·jec·tur·a·bly, adverb
con·jec·tur·er, noun
mis·con·jec·ture, verb, mis·con·jec·tured, mis·con·jec·tur·ing; noun
non·con·jec·tur·a·ble, adjective

Synonyms
2. surmise, inference, supposition, theory, hypothesis. 4. surmise, suppose, presume. See guess.

Asking a question is not conjecture....positing a theory without sufficient evidence is conjecture...

I asked a question. this is not conjecture. if you cannot answer it, that is fine, but don't inappropriately use words you don't even really know, in an attempt to deflect from arguments and facts that undermine your position

True unlike Snowden i finished high school.

And the point of that comment relates how

cheap shot Ad Hominem against the messenger..and feigned ignorance....very bad form, neo...

Conjecture

again with that word, and the wrong use of it....

precedent has been set for my assertion with the arrest, and subsequent incarceration of Bradly Manning, the federal governments continues efforts to attempt the apprehension of Julian Assange, and the death of Danny Casolaro.

therefore, this is not conjecture either..

Originally posted by ANNED
Snowden is going to find amnesty in a foreign country will be just as bad or worse then being in jail in the US

How do you make money or open a bank account when the US government can hack the bank and take your money

They could erase you birth and any other public records that you ever lived.

Or they could put him in so much debt that no bank or business would talk to you in any country.

Really? And why would "they" do that? What would justify such actions against Snowden? What law condones such conduct? Who are the "they" who would be making the decisions that lead to such results? What right do "they" have to make such decisions and take such lawless action in our name?

reply to post by Daedalus

You keep using that word...i don't think it means what you think it means....

Sounds like a Ad homenim

here, let me help you with that...

That sounds like condescension

Asking a question is not conjecture....positing a theory without sufficient evidence is conjecture... I asked a question. this is not conjecture. if you cannot answer it, that is fine, but don't inappropriately use words you don't even really know, in an attempt to deflect from arguments and facts that undermine your position

Don't do questions not on here to do tricks for other people.

cheap shot Ad Hominem against the messenger..and feigned ignorance....very bad form, neo...

Sounds like shooting the messenger thats twice now considering this earlier comment

i KNOW you're not stupid, so please stop deliberately missing the point

again with that word, and the wrong use of it.... precedent has been set for my assertion with the arrest, and subsequent incarceration of Bradly Manning, the federal governments continues efforts to attempt the apprehension of Julian Assange, and the death of Danny Casolaro.

Snowden is the topic here YES?

Sorry of people thought my contempt of Snowden was up for 'debate' it's not here to state an opinion like everyone else not my problem if others have problems with it.

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by Daedalus

 

Sounds like a Ad homenim

Sounds like you don't know what "ad hominem" means...

let me help you with that...

if i were to say "you're a goddamn idiot", THAT would qualify as an Ad Hominem....

pointing out that you don't appear to understand what a word means, based on your incorrect usage of it, is an observation...there is a difference.

That sounds like condescension

no...no, that was definitely snark...

had i been condescending, i would have said something along the lines of "Ok, let's use smaller words, so you can understand better"

instead, i decided to give you the definition of the word you incorrectly used, in the hopes that it would genuinely help you.

Don't do questions not on here to do tricks for other people.

pardon?

Sounds like shooting the messenger thats twice now considering this earlier comment

again, what?

Snowden is the topic here YES?

yes..yes he is....but you've again used a red herring, to avoid replying to what was actually said...

Sorry of people thought my contempt of Snowden was up for 'debate' it's not here to state an opinion like everyone else not my problem if others have problems with it.

it's not your opinion i take issue with, so much as your avoidance, refusal to engage in discussion, and the nonsensical nature of some of what i've seen out of you here.....

you've got your mind made up, and you completely ignore anything that doesn't agree with what you've decided is truth..

that's not denying ignorance, my friend....

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by crazyewok
Waiting in the Airport until he can get a safe flight out.

Proof please.
And you don't think that he can be questioned and give up information in an office at an airport?

Well, that's pretty nervy of you!

Prove all the claims YOU are making about what Snowden has "blabbed" to foreign nationals, please.

Don't you THINK that the controlled media is going to have orders to make Snowden out to be the ultimate bad guy? How does that hook, line, and sinker taste to you? Yummy?

reply to post by dreamingawake

Originally posted by dreamingawake

With all that has gone on lately such as Hastings death and this released:
"Intelligence officials overheard joking about how NSA leaker should be 'disappeared' after handing classified documents to press" - See here

This deserves more attention.

Excellent comment! I had actually forgotten about this incident. I am updating my Snowden/NSA/Hastings timeline with this:


June 18 Michael Hastings dies in car 'accident'

June 18 Hastings contacted WikiLeaks lawyer Robinson, saying that the FBI was investigating him.

June 17 Hastings e-mails a friend: I'm on a big story, and need to go off the radar for a bit.

June 17 Snowden: 'Government is not going to be able to cover this up by jailing or murdering me. Truth is coming, and it cannot be stopped.'

June 12 Hastings twitter feed goes silent (last tweet at 9:44 PM)

June 9 Snowden is identified as the NSA-whistleblower behind Glenn Greenwald's story in the Guardian

June 8 "Intelligence officials overheard joking about how NSA leaker should be 'disappeared' after handing classified documents to press"

June 7 Hastings LAST article: Why Democrats Love To Spy On Americans Guys, this one is a must read!!!

June 5 Glenn Greenwald breaks the NSA story in an exclusive on the Guardian




Any other missing pieces that would fit in with this?