Amnesty International weighs in on Snowden

reply to post by Daedalus

Sounds like you don't know what "ad hominem" means... let me help you with that... if i were to say "you're a goddamn idiot", THAT would qualify as an Ad Hominem.... pointing out that you don't appear to understand what a word means, based on your incorrect usage of it, is an observation...there is a difference.

OFF TOPIC

no...no, that was definitely snark... had i been condescending, i would have said something along the lines of "Ok, let's use smaller words, so you can understand better" instead, i decided to give you the definition of the word you incorrectly used, in the hopes that it would genuinely help you.

OFFTOPIC

pardon?

OFFTOPIC

yes..yes he is....but you've again used a red herring, to avoid replying to what was actually said...

YES Snowden is the TOPIC

it's not your opinion i take issue with, so much as your avoidance, refusal to engage in discussion, and the nonsensical nature of some of what i've seen out of you here

Point where it says anyone has to?

you've got your mind made up, a

That's right point out where anyone is suppose to 'worship Snowden'

ou completely ignore anything that doesn't agree with what you've decided is truth..

That was hilarious because SNOWDEN IS THE TOPIC

that's not denying ignorance, my friend....

Denying ignorance is STICKING to the topic.

Honesty don't have to justify my opinions to anyone.

Is this YOUR theory? Or is this a fact?

Originally posted by Daedalus


if he stayed here, he would be dead, or in a hole somewhere....the story would be buried, and none of us would know a thing about it.

Hmmmm......

Originally posted by Daedalus


....positing a theory without sufficient evidence is conjecture...

I don't know ANY US citizens buried in Gitmo, forgotten.

I also don't believe a story this big could or would have been buried. The story of Journalists being spied on wasn't buried, was it?

reply to post by sonnny1


Check this out:

Hackers in China are the world’s “most active and persistent perpetrators” of economic cyber espionage, and Russian spy agencies are actively seeking to steal U.S. technology, according to a report released by American intelligence services on Thursday

www.nationaljournal.com...

The country where anti-surveillance hero Edward Snowden wants to take refuge spent half a million dollars on an Israeli-made “GSM interceptor” in a deal brokered by a U.S. middleman. Seeking the capacity to “intercept text messages, falsify and modify the text messages” among other tricks.

www.buzzfeed.com...

The Entire Snowden accolades is utter nonsense.

Snowden made a very good choice when he decided to blow it out in the open. The U.S. does have enemies and competitors and Snowden is escaping using those countries. China didn't bother to stop him from getting away because the were attacked by the U.S. Russia is laughing because they aren't friends with the U.S. either. They only have packs with the U.S. for mutual benefits but politically they are enemies.

Unlike Julian Assange who is basically a prisoner in the embassy of Ecuador in the United Kingdom. Snowden has a chance to escape and we will see whether he will make it or if the U.S. will go as far as Russia and will murder him abroad. Think of the U.K. incident where someone was murdered by the Russians using nuclear material. In any case; not only have the practices of the U.S. and several of its allies have been revealed to be undemocratic and with disregard for human lives and privacy, their methods of dealing with it have so too.

That said; we all already knew all our actions on the internet were being monitored. The dead give away that we heard from Chinese hackers but not from western governmental hacking basically betrayed the existence of far reaching back doors. A child knew that and Snowden only uncovered it. (Mumbles something about being in plain view by missing in the picture)

This site too; is being monitored by the NSA with care. Ah..I am talking too much again I hope the NSA know they are being monitored as well. I wonder why those guy never got caught, one would have thought the NSA would have noticed that dark network by know.

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by Daedalus

 

Sounds like you don't know what "ad hominem" means... let me help you with that... if i were to say "you're a goddamn idiot", THAT would qualify as an Ad Hominem.... pointing out that you don't appear to understand what a word means, based on your incorrect usage of it, is an observation...there is a difference.

OFF TOPIC

no...no, that was definitely snark... had i been condescending, i would have said something along the lines of "Ok, let's use smaller words, so you can understand better" instead, i decided to give you the definition of the word you incorrectly used, in the hopes that it would genuinely help you.

OFFTOPIC

pardon?

OFFTOPIC

yes..yes he is....but you've again used a red herring, to avoid replying to what was actually said...

YES Snowden is the TOPIC

it's not your opinion i take issue with, so much as your avoidance, refusal to engage in discussion, and the nonsensical nature of some of what i've seen out of you here

Point where it says anyone has to?

you've got your mind made up, a

That's right point out where anyone is suppose to 'worship Snowden'

ou completely ignore anything that doesn't agree with what you've decided is truth..

That was hilarious because SNOWDEN IS THE TOPIC

that's not denying ignorance, my friend....

Denying ignorance is STICKING to the topic.

Honesty don't have to justify my opinions to anyone.

hahahaha, you deflect, spew nonsense, and call anything you don't wanna talk about "offtopic"...you're ridiculous, i'm done with you....come back when you can have a conversation like an adult..

reply to post by neo96


Well, some believe Snowden is a double agent. Personally, I don't believe that.


We all can "assume" that other Countries are actively spying on their citizens. Putin is ex-KGB for Gods sake !

All Snowden did was legitimize what many here in the US believed was taking place on its own citizens.

We shouldn't be all too surprised by this. J Edgar Hoover was notorious with his spying. Having drones in our skies, the electronic age, all of the Orwellian nonsense that is here, is here to stay unless we act on it. Is Snowden a hero? For some he is. His actions and repercussions are causing waves. But for those out there that believe something good is going to come from this, they are sadly mistaken. This isn't V for Vendetta. Hes NOT Guy Fawkes........His actions are not going to start a Revolution. Its the sad truth.

There are Heroes on street corner murals from Dublin to the Inner cities of the US, to Jamaica. Martyrs of all shapes and sizes. Snowden is alive and well. He isn't a Martyr and he isn't a hero. Hes a guy who stood up for what he believed in, or for other personal reasons. Applaud him, or Hate him. True Heroes change how we live.

Originally posted by sonnny1
Is this YOUR theory? Or is this a fact?

Originally posted by Daedalus


if he stayed here, he would be dead, or in a hole somewhere....the story would be buried, and none of us would know a thing about it.

Hmmmm......

Originally posted by Daedalus


....positing a theory without sufficient evidence is conjecture...

I don't know ANY US citizens buried in Gitmo, forgotten.

I also don't believe a story this big could or would have been buried. The story of Journalists being spied on wasn't buried, was it?

edit on 26-6-2013 by sonnny1 because: typo

i would submit that it is fact, given that it has been shown to be current SOP when it comes to dealing with whistle blowers....they either end up in a hole (prison), or dead...that constitutes sufficient evidence, therefore, it is not conjecture.

and at what point did i mention GITMO? or people being buried?

way to misrepresent what i said, and put words to me....

reply to post by sonnny1

True Heroes change how we live.

Then Snowden is no hero because the status quo will continue like it has been that has been over 60 years.

Spying under the last admin, the admin before that spied. the one before than spied, and the one before that spied, the current admin will continue spying the next one after that will do the same.

Snowden isn't going to change that if people think he will they are wrong.

And Russia,China and other government's have been at it the same amount of time.

Originally posted by Daedalus


i would submit that it is fact, given that it has been shown to be current SOP when it comes to dealing with whistle blowers....they either end up in a hole (prison), or dead...that constitutes sufficient evidence, therefore, it is not conjecture.

Really?


Care to show me some "evidence"?

Please show me the "Whistle blowers" that this Administration has had killed please.

Originally posted by Daedalus
way to misrepresent what i said, and put words to me....

When someone says hole, that's usually means buried.......

Care to show me where they are buried?

Care to show me those Whistle blowers who are "forgotten" not able to speak?

The burden of proof is on you, or its "conjecture".

Even Manning is allowed to speak...............

Originally posted by sonnny1

Originally posted by Daedalus


i would submit that it is fact, given that it has been shown to be current SOP when it comes to dealing with whistle blowers....they either end up in a hole (prison), or dead...that constitutes sufficient evidence, therefore, it is not conjecture.

Really?


Care to show me some "evidence"?

Please show me the "Whistle blowers" that this Administration has had killed please.

limiting it to this administration limits the number of names...

recently, how about we go with reporters that were going to break big stories (blowing the whistle) about government misconduct...

we have Breitbart, and, oh hell, let's toss Hastings on the pile too, because that one stinks to high heaven....

and if you wanna go further back, we can take a look at Danny Casolaro (suicided).....

more recently, we've got Gary Webb, who was said to have committed suicide by shooting himself in the head....twice (oh yeah, i believe that one)

Originally posted by sonnny1

Originally posted by Daedalus
way to misrepresent what i said, and put words to me....

When someone says hole, that's usually means buried.......

Care to show me where they are buried?

Care to show me those Whistle blowers who are "forgotten" not able to speak?

The burden of proof is on you, or its "conjecture".

Even Manning is allowed to speak...............

just because "hole" means "burried" to you, does not mean that's what it means to everyone else..and i'm not going to have you sit there and beat me over the head with accusations, because your idea of what a word means is different..

when was the last time you saw manning in a press conference? when was the last time he was interviewed by the media? i can't seem to find anything recent....

ETA: way to sidestep the whole gitmo thing....don't bother apologizing for making false accusations or anything

reply to post by Heliophant

Checking back in, reading through the thread to see what I missed... Wow.

Me too.

It seems people are upset at others speculating whilst they are doing the same in countering others opinions.

To me, speculation mustn't be shouted down, this is a conspiracy site after all.

The facts are we have a 'whistle-blower' taking refuge in Russia.

Whether he has or hasn't got any 'secret' data on him in terms of memory sticks or what ever, he does have information in his head useful to an adversary of the USA and its allies.

Anything else is just speculation.

We can see people claiming he's in the airport lounge and hasn't crossed the border control point due to Putin confirming this but they are then very quick to imply their own government throws out bs to discredit Snowden. Putin is prone to bs too.

What if things were the other way around and a Russian or Chinese intelligence employee who accessed secrets to whistle-blow corruption in their own Country then took refuge in the US. Can people honestly believe he wouldn't be questioned or persuaded to divulge information in order for him to receive any help?

Originally posted by Daedalus

Originally posted by sonnny1

Originally posted by Daedalus


i would submit that it is fact, given that it has been shown to be current SOP when it comes to dealing with whistle blowers....they either end up in a hole (prison), or dead...that constitutes sufficient evidence, therefore, it is not conjecture.

Really?


Care to show me some "evidence"?

Please show me the "Whistle blowers" that this Administration has had killed please.

limiting it to this administration limits the number of names...

recently, how about we go with reporters that were going to break big stories (blowing the whistle) about government misconduct...

we have Breitbart, and, oh hell, let's toss Hastings on the pile too, because that one stinks to high heaven....

and if you wanna go further back, we can take a look at Danny Casolaro (suicided).....

more recently, we've got Gary Webb, who was said to have committed suicide by shooting himself in the head....twice (oh yeah, i believe that one)

Originally posted by sonnny1

Originally posted by Daedalus
way to misrepresent what i said, and put words to me....

When someone says hole, that's usually means buried.......

Care to show me where they are buried?

Care to show me those Whistle blowers who are "forgotten" not able to speak?

The burden of proof is on you, or its "conjecture".

Even Manning is allowed to speak...............

just because "hole" means "burried" to you, does not mean that's what it means to everyone else..and i'm not going to have you sit there and beat me over the head with accusations, because your idea of what a word means is different..

when was the last time you saw manning in a press conference? when was the last time he was interviewed by the media? i can't seem to find anything recent....

ETA: way to sidestep the whole gitmo thing....don't bother apologizing for making false accusations or anything

edit on 26-6-2013 by Daedalus because: (no reason given)

First, you limited yourself when you said current Administration! Look at your own qoute.....

Second, Manning has spoken. You STILL havnt shown those whistleblowers silenced! Wheres your proof?

I brought up gitmo because theres no American whistleblowers being held there.Its a prison. That is the one place if you go to that your rights really dont matter. Yes you can be burried there. But you used the word killed. Give me proof. Quit trying to play the Alex Jones game making wild accusations with no evidence. Why would I apologize for asking for proof?

Originally posted by ColCurious
reply to post by NickK3

 

I just heard John Kerry on the news, demanding from Russia that they act in accordance with applicable law.

I'm curious to see what the US gov. considers as "applicable"... especially now that even their allies feel alienated by the unjust behaviour of the current US administration experienced in recent weeks.

edit on 24-6-2013 by ColCurious because: (no reason given)

Applicable law is that Putin can tell Kerry and Obama to go pound it in the sand. The US and Russia have no extradition treaties, so there is no law that requires Russia to turn anybody over to the US. Moreover, under Bush II, the US tore up the US-Soviet anti-ballistic missile treaty on the pretext that the Soviet Union no longer existed. The US doesn't have much to stand on here. Kerry is showing himself to be a powerless an pompous horse's ptooey.

reply to post by imalitehaus


To the uneducated, it might appear that the US Constitution is the supreme law of the land.
Something can be LEGAL and still appear to be un-constitutional.
What the NSA has done (or is doing still) hasn't been ruled UN-CONSTITUTIONAL.

You and I may think or believe it may be - but as of yet - IT IS NOT.

That is the difference. Just because you think it is, doesn't make it so.

Originally posted by Daedalus

Originally posted by zeeon

Originally posted by Daedalus

Originally posted by Tykonos
reply to post by xavi1000

 

You see , my signature is like people of you , you are worthy attacking for making these claims, Snowden is not a spy , if he was he will be now in Beijing or Moscow enjoying ,,,but he is now running and running.... Snowden sacrifice his life for people like you ordinary people who wants their privacy protected which is fundamental part of freedom if you understand what is that. History is being made and unfolding as we speak ... those on the wrong side of it by obstructing and impeding the truth from emerging are noted and shall be remembered.

I haven't seen FlyersFan calling Snowdon a spy.

He's not running, he's gone missing in Russia, who still to my knowledge say they don't know where he is.

History is being made as we speak, you're right. You are obstructing and impeding truth from emerging by denying others the right to speculate an opposing view to yours.

edit on 25-6-2013 by Tykonos because: (no reason given)

actually, FF is of the opinion that Snowden may have been recruited by the chinese, and then got the jobs an NSA/CIA to gather information for them (AKA: Spying)...so yeah, FF did kinda call him a spy...

which is funny...all these baseless accusations....dragging the man through the mud, when he/she/wtfever has absolutely ZERO proof that ANY of their assertions have ANY actual fact-based merit....

edit on 25-6-2013 by Daedalus because: (no reason given)

Here's a fact. Snowden SIGNED and AGREED to keep our Nations secret - SECRET.
After signing that agreement, he was bound by LAW to keep it secret.
Or is the rule of law something we don't care about anymore?

Furthermore, he could have exposed the NSA for spying without exposing our National secrets.
He didn't do that though, did he? He went balls out and exposed everything - without any thought of the potential ramifications his actions might bring (especially on the rest of us, who unlike him - are still living in America).

ok, so since PRISM was secret, how could he expose it, without exposing it?

Why don't you try using those logical deduction skills you claim to have. I'm sure it will come to you.
It's not that difficult to figure out. Whistleblowers and journalists have been doing it for years.

Case in point - Stuxnet and Flame. Source code wasn't leaked was it? Yet, we found out about it.
We found out about our nations Cyberwarfare capabilities. Yet, the *DETAILS* of how that technology actually worked - was not released by the whistleblower, was it?

That is the difference. Snowden released the entire program - not just the fact (with corraborating information) that the NSA is spying.

Originally posted by yorkshirelad

Originally posted by zeeon

The fact that Edward Snowden released our capabilties to prevent that very real danger, has given our enemies the ability to - at the very least - circumvent them.

nonsense. Anyone with half a brain cell can communicate secretly even when somebody is eavesdropping. The security services know this. The technology they use is only good at catching amateurs and generating list of undesirable native citizens. An awful lot of people are too naieve to understand this. Who said Snowdon had released state secrets? The Guardian?. The Russians? The Chinese? Snowdon? A hacker? Or a pissed off embarrassed agency caught snooping on ordinary citizens? Duh! Wake up whilst YOU still have the ability to protest. You don't have long.

LOL - Could you foam at the mouth any more?
Who said Snowden released state secrets? HELLO GENIUS THE INFORMATION WAS MARKED TOP SECRET / SCI. That qualifies as STATE SECRETS. You really shouldn't comment about things you know absolutely nothing about. Do you even have any iota on how the United States determines classified information?

You probably think someone, somewhere, decides what should be or shouldn't be classified and/or state secrets don't you? You couldn't be more wrong. But don't let me get in the way of that ignorance...you just continue to be blissful wallowing in it.

What I want to know is when is he actually going to release all his secrets to the public like he said?

So far he hasnt actually given us much except conferm what we already know.

Its a frustrating wait!

Originally posted by Daedalus

Originally posted by zeeon

Originally posted by Daedalus
and the fact that you think flyersfan's wild accusations, based on speculation, instead of hard facts and evidence, is somehow not flawed, tells me where your mind is at...

objectivity is key...unless you can maintain objectivity, you are incapable of logical deduction, or following the evidence. everyone here screaming "traitor", and "he gave away secrets to the enemy" like a broken record, without even having any facts, is allowing personal bias to interfere with rational thought, and is therefore, lacking in credibility...

I don't think you understand what objectivity and logical deduction really are.

When an adversary doesn't know what your capabilities are, they are at a severe disadvantage.
When an adversary does know what your capabilities are, they can be mitigated, or at worst - leveraged against you.

Snowden leaked TOP SECRET / SCI details on our (The United States of America) capabilities to defend ourselves against foriegn enemies. It's really that simple. Unless you think (through your exceptional ability to deduce) that the NSA is interested in what you talked with your mother, or brother, or friend, or father about last week on the phone.

Because yes, it's logical to spend BILLIONS of dollars on this technology to intercept those kinds of communications with your friends and family.
Or, because it's logical to spend BILLIONS of dollars on this technology to frame or catch Joe the Plumber for over charging his last client by 10%.
OR because it's logical to spend BILLIONS of dollars on this technology to catch someone using that racial epithet.

More likely (let me illustrate those logical deduction skills for you), our Government spent BILLIONS of dollars on that NSA technology to implement a mandate by the people of this country for further protection from foriegn adversaries that clearly illustrate a clear and present danger to the national interests of this country that have the very real potential to disrupt the life, liberty and persuit of happiness and security of every living American in the United States - ALL asked for by the majority of her people.

The fact that Edward Snowden released our capabilties to prevent that very real danger, has given our enemies the ability to - at the very least - circumvent them.

ok, so you believe that PRISM is a national security secret, and essential to the preservation of the historically traditional american way of life, and the continued existence of these united states?

Now you are asking me what I believe - do not confuse my personal beliefes with the reasons why we have PRISM / NSA Spying now.

I believe to spend billions of dollars to prevent something that I, personally, have a 99% chance of never encountering (terrorism) is stupid and wasteful. I was, and still am against the Patriot Act and the NSA activities - but not because they are spying on me.

I am against this because I refuse to live in fear of something that has such a little chance of affecting me, my family or friends at all, in our lifetime. I am more afraid of the asshole driver on the freeway on my way to work every day then some radical jihadist. I am more afraid of dying of heart disease then some radical jihadist.

Yet, *I* didn't vote for this. I shouted and told as many people as I could not to allow the Patriot Act.
My minority voice (minority in the sense that my opinion was not of the majority) was drowned out by the multitude of American's who were so scared of Terrorism that they allowed the Patriot Act to come into existence. The very same American's now who cry foul now that we know the NSA is spying on American's to prevent the very thing THEY ASKED THEM TO DO.

It so very hypocritical to see so many people in here cry foul at the NSA when it was they who were the very ones who brought this upon the rest of us. It's also so hyprocritical to see the multitudes of posters in here congratulate and praise a traitor who betrayed his country - the very same country that was doing the very thing the MAJORITY OF AMERICANS ASKED THEM TO DO.

I am here to explain to people that they got what they asked for.

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by sonnny1

 

Check this out:

Hackers in China are the world’s “most active and persistent perpetrators” of economic cyber espionage, and Russian spy agencies are actively seeking to steal U.S. technology, according to a report released by American intelligence services on Thursday

www.nationaljournal.com...

The country where anti-surveillance hero Edward Snowden wants to take refuge spent half a million dollars on an Israeli-made “GSM interceptor” in a deal brokered by a U.S. middleman. Seeking the capacity to “intercept text messages, falsify and modify the text messages” among other tricks.

www.buzzfeed.com...

The Entire Snowden accolades is utter nonsense.

edit on 26-6-2013 by neo96 because: (no reason given)

OFF TOPIC