Amnesty International weighs in on Snowden

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by crazyewok
Waiting in the Airport until he can get a safe flight out.

Proof please.
And you don't think that he can be questioned and give up information in an office at an airport?

am i the only one who finds it ironic that you are asking for proof to substantiate a claim, when you have failed, repeatedly, when asked to provide proof to substantiate YOUR claims?

reply to post by crazyewok

The same as Spain and France were circa 1776 but your patriotic Heros of the past still went for them for help didnt they?

Enough already fine here is the real deal

Both Spain and France used America to take down Britian which is exactly what Russia and China are trying to do present day.

Snowden is to means to an end with no value other than that goal.

Yep history is repeating itself and the Snowden fan club are helping that process right along. 1700s America was a proxy war against Britain.

Originally posted by Gazrok
reply to post by Shadowphile

 

In theory, sure, how well do you think that will hold up when they try him (either in person or absentia?)

Well that is not actually theory but a simple fact. If a contract binds you to be participating in illegal activities then such a contract is illegal all by itself for all intends and purposes.

Whether this would help Mr.Snowden enough in a court of law is on this soil is a different matter entirely.
realistically , i myself would not expect a fair trial for this man in this country.

Originally posted by neo96


Enough already fine here is the real deal

Both Spain and France used America to take down Britian which is exactly what Russia and China are trying to do present day.

Snowden is to means to an end with no value other than that goal.

Yep history is repeating itself and the Snowden fan club are helping that process right along. 1700s America was a proxy war against Britain.

edit on 25-6-2013 by neo96 because: (no reason given)

And if the result of which is the end of a tyranical and corrupt govement in charge of America like 200 years ago it is for the good of the American people is it not?

Your goverment and its tools may need to be purged and reformed to corrcet it. In other words you may need clear the slate and start again.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by crazyewok
So when your founding fathers went to the French and Spansih (Far worse than the British) for help at the start of your revolution they did wrong too?

Again ... its not the same. Snowden isn't going to enemies for help to make America better.
He's dumping info on them that they can use to weaken America. 2 different situations entirely.

and again, you have no proof to substantiate your claims....

do you know the man? can you accurately speak to his motivations or intent?

from what i've seen, he has not done anything overtly, or purposely harmful to these united states...until such a time as he does, i (as well as any other rational individual) am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt....

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Todzer
It looks like he didn't have much of a choice though, .

He had a lot of choices ....
- Don't say anything at all.
- Tell the American people about the NSA spying on them, and then stay and fight like a patriot.
- Tell the American people about the NSA spying on them, and then run.
- Tell the American people about the NSA spying on them, and then run and help America's enemies (China and Russia) by telling state secrets that weaken the defense of the USA.

He decided to do the last .... which means he isn't a patriot. He has harmed America.

I get that there is a huge LUV-FEST going on here about Snowden. Lots of people are turning him into a folk-hero. But take a look at ALL his actions, not just the release of the info about the NSA spying on Americans.

I'm glad he released that info. It was a good thing to do. It was a patriotic thing to do. It was a heroic thing to do. But he didn't stop there. He went on to aid America's foreign enemies and put Americans in danger . So his actions and motives are now highly suspect. People here hate to hear those facts. But it's the truth.

You falsely state that Snowden put our lives in danger. Did you die yesterday? Think you're going to die tomorrow? You have better odds of being run over in the street by a soccer-mom texting on her cell phone. Our lives aren't even remotely in danger by what Snowden did. We'll all do just fine. I'm not even remotely concerned about what he's told China and Russia. The NSA has been spying on all of us for quite a long while now. They keep wanting to turn this around on Snowden, which is pure mindless BS. Had the NSA had some integrity and not violated the 4th Amendment every second of every day, there would have been nothing for Snowden to say in the first place. The fact that the NSA isn't taking the brunt of the blame here rather than everyone turning on Snowden because he might have said something that "put Americans in danger", really shows you just how lost we are as a nation. I'm not in danger. You're not in danger. We're all just fine. Stop making it sound like we're somehow at risk. Consequently, the NSA is just fine as well. Nothing will be done to them. No one will ever be charged. We'll continue to be spied upon by the NSA and nothing will ever change for the better.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Todzer
It looks like he didn't have much of a choice though, .

He decided to do the last .... which means he isn't a patriot. He has harmed America.



I'm glad he released that info. It was a good thing to do. It was a patriotic thing to do. It was a heroic thing to do. But he didn't stop there. He went on to aid America's foreign enemies and put Americans in danger . So his actions and motives are now highly suspect. People here hate to hear those facts. But it's the truth.

The motives are not suspect in the way you put it, he has exposed US, UK, Australia, New Zealand, and probably more by his actions, America is but one country as big as it may be. You also assume China and Russia are enemies without making the case. By default then it would better to assume all countries are enemies.
But you also miss the big point, it won't be just a US government 'going after' him, it won't just be any other government concerned 'going after' him, it will be everybody who had unwarranted access to the information that was being trawled by NSA/NCTC and engaged in illegalities, that is a lot of high profiles.
I'm glad AI has got off its ass, I'm a member, I get all the e-mails and so often I wonder what about this or that not being dealt with. They could do better. As for Snowden, it will take an army to keep him safe.

Originally posted by Daedalus





HOW DARE YOU! THAT COMBINATION OF HERBS, SPICES, AND SEASONINGS IS CRITICAL TO THE SECURITY OF OBESE PEOPLE ALL OVER OUR FINE NATION!

We wouldn't want popeye's chicken finding out now would we?

Originally posted by zeeon

Originally posted by Daedalus

and lastly, what the NSA is doing IS illegal......their actions violate the 4th amendment, AND NSA'S legal restriction on domestic intelligence gathering. this is fact....

they are breaking the law, and using the "secret" shield to hide their crimes...

You have a source for that legal restriction on domestic intelligence gathering?
A source besides the 4th?

the 4th is all that is required....the fact that you believe otherwise tells me there's something wrong with you.

but since you insist, how about Executive order 12333, which outlines the NSA's mission as the collection of data that constitutes "foreign intelligence or counterintelligence" while not "acquiring information concerning the domestic activities of United States persons". or how about the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978?

Originally posted by zeeon

Originally posted by imalitehaus

Originally posted by zeeon
reply to post by Daedalus

 

No - YOUR logic is flawed - as well as almost every other poster on here except FlyersFan.

What Snowden exposed WAS NOT ILLEGAL. Very likely, YOU and all of the other people espousing the very incorrect notion that the NSA spying is illegal VOTED the law that made it legal.That law is called the Patriot Act.

And if you voted for Obama, you voted for this (because he renewed and expanded it).
If you voted for any of the Senators and/or Congressman or women that approved the Patriot Act - you voted for this.

So can we PLEASE stop espousing that what the NSA is doing is illegal. IT IS LEGAL.
And for those of you who do not understand Constitutional Law - something can indeed be Legal AND Unconstitional. The constitutionality of what the NSA is doing has yet to be determined - so for now - what the NSA is doing is legal.

So the real narrative here is that Snowden exposed something that is morally objectionable - but not illegal.
Something the majority of you (yes, Majority because Obama was re-elected by majority) WANTED.

It is NOT legal. The FISA court found the NSA spying to be unconstitutional and illegal. The DOJ is trying to hide the full 86-page ruling, but the fact of illegality by the NSA is now known by all.

See elouina's excellent thread here: Justice Dept. Loses Round in Battle to Keep Surveillance Wrongdoing Secret

Wrong again. What that thread is about is the FISA Courts "secret" interpretation of a clause of the Patriot Act.
That clause has already been discussed as part of the NSA Hearings on the Hill. General Alexander already told us which clauses they use in the Patriot Act. That case you referenced is about getting the courts official interpretation of that clause.

So no - it is not illegal. Next?

Actually, you're still wrong. You are the one who said the Patriot Act made NSA's spying legal, not I. If you're such a learned Constitutional scholar, it's a shame you don't recognize the Constituton as the supreme law of the land.

You're simply wasting my time, with your foolish arguments meant to do nothing but play Devil's advocate. Good day.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Todzer
It looks like he didn't have much of a choice though, .

He had a lot of choices ....
- Don't say anything at all.
- Tell the American people about the NSA spying on them, and then stay and fight like a patriot.
- Tell the American people about the NSA spying on them, and then run.
- Tell the American people about the NSA spying on them, and then run and help America's enemies (China and Russia) by telling state secrets that weaken the defense of the USA.
He decided to do the last .... which means he isn't a patriot. He has harmed America.
I get that there is a huge LUV-FEST going on here about Snowden. Lots of people are turning him into a folk-hero. But take a look at ALL his actions, not just the release of the info about the NSA spying on Americans.
I'm glad he released that info. It was a good thing to do. It was a patriotic thing to do. It was a heroic thing to do. But he didn't stop there. He went on to aid America's foreign enemies and put Americans in danger . So his actions and motives are now highly suspect. People here hate to hear those facts. But it's the truth.

======================================================================================
You talk as though you were an insider to all of these goings on. You know absolutely nothing! Sorry to be the one to tell you but you are talking through your hat.

Disagree? Then prove it - back up what you are saying and tell us all here assembled the contents of the so-called "state secrets" that Snowden was supposed to have revealed to the Chinese and the Russians.

I am positive that will not be able to adequately respond to this challenge.

reply to post by Guadeloupe


I have invited flyersfan several times already to do so (P)ages ago for the first time already but yet incessantly continues to try and hammer the idea down peoples throat. It does not seem that flyersfan is capable of doing so.

reply to post by Shadowphile


You ain't the only one a few people have, myself included but his preferred response is "he's a traitor"

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Daedalus
so, you're perfectly ok with the idea of basing your opinion and conclusions on conjecture and speculation,

You sure are.

born of some warped version of patriotism/nationalism, and maybe personal prejudice of other nations?

blah blah blah. Again .. grow up.

how do you expect to retain even the smallest shred of credibility in a debate,

Considering that I"m basing my conclusion on common sense instead of inflamed blind hero worship, I'm thinking my credibility is in a much better position than yours is.

could you try to take a step back, and ATTEMPT to exercise some logic, and common sense here?

Could YOU try to take a step back and ATTEMPT to exercise some logic, and common sense here? And perhaps give a try at staying on topic and not attempting deflection with personal insult after personal insult. I'm finding it interesting that you are going through the entire thread and pulling up every post I"ve made TO OTHER PEOPLE and responding to them. OCD much?

Learn to tolerate the fact that other people will come to different conclusions than you do and that it's okay. Relax.

i've based nothing on conjecture, or speculation...i've simply pointed out REPEATEDLY that there is no proof to substantiate your claims.

i'm not targeting your posts simply because they're yours...i target your posts (and others) because they are full of fallacious and absurd accusations, with no basis in fact...that is to say, you're making wild claims with absolutely no substantiation other than your own personal opinion....if you want to take this as a personal attack, that's your hangup...

i've never once called him a hero, so your accusation of blind hero worship goes right out the window now...

the fact of the matter is that you have repeatedly made claims with no substantiation in the form of facts, or evidence, you blindly disregard requests for proof, instead hiding behind logical fallacies (argumentum ad ignorantiam, divine fallacy/appeal to common sense, among others), and now accusations of persecution, in an attempt to deflect from the fact that you are COMPLETELY off base....

this is not about you, or me...this is about the man(snowden)...

Nice try.

Originally posted by Shadowphile
reply to post by Guadeloupe

 

I have invited flyersfan several times already to do so (P)ages ago for the first time already. It does not seem that flyersfan is capable of doing so.

Yea........I guess we both knew he was showing off............I am glad to hear that I am not the only one to call his bluff. I am sure that FF has done absolutely NO research on Snowden and the persons to whom he has revealed parts of the trove of information in his possession.

In the event of his arrest or demise Snowden was extremely precise in his instructions as to how to protect American interests weighed against the public right to know. He was careful to NOT "out" anyone or to put anyone in danger, and to NOT jeopardize real American security interests. This is a very good read in that respect..........

Please take a look at this important article that covers what we are discussing here.

Greenwald: Snowden’s Files Are Out There if ‘Anything Happens’ to Him
By Eli Lake Jun 25, 2013 1:36 PM EDT

Snowden has shared encoded copies of all the documents he took so that they won’t disappear if he does, Glenn Greenwald tells Eli Lake.

PARTIAL TEXT:

As the U.S. government presses Moscow to extradite former National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden, America’s most wanted leaker has a plan B. The former NSA systems administrator has already given encoded files containing an archive of the secrets he lifted from his old employer to several people. If anything happens to Snowden, the files will be unlocked.

Glenn Greenwald, the Guardian journalist who Snowden first contacted in February, told The Daily Beast on Tuesday that Snowden “has taken extreme precautions to make sure many different people around the world have these archives to insure the stories will inevitably be published.” Greenwald added that the people in possession of these files “cannot access them yet because they are highly encrypted and they do not have the passwords.” But, Greenwald said, “if anything happens at all to Edward Snowden, he told me he has arranged for them to get access to the full archives.”

The fact that Snowden has made digital copies of the documents he accessed while working at the NSA poses a new challenge to the U.S. intelligence community that has scrambled in recent days to recover them and assess the full damage of the breach. Even if U.S. authorities catch up with Snowden and the four classified laptops the Guardian reported he brought with him to Hong Kong the secrets Snowden hopes to expose will still likely be published.

A former U.S. counterintelligence officer following the Snowden saga closely said his contacts inside the U.S. intelligence community “think Snowden has been planning this for years and has stashed files all over the Internet.” This source added, “At this point there is very little anyone can do about this.”

The arrangement to entrust encrypted archives of his files with others also sheds light on a cryptic statement Snowden made on June 17 during a live chat with The Guardian. In the online session he said, “All I can say right now is the U.S. government is not going to be able to cover this up by jailing or murdering me. Truth is coming, and it cannot be stopped.”

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by crazyewok

 

So dig up 200+ year old examples to 'justify' ones opinion alrightie then some of us don't have to.

Look like in the USA your history lessons skip over that lesson of the revolution and just focus on the hero patriotic part

Is that right?

'Patriotic Heros' don't cut and run, they stay and fight.

and as i've said before, what purpose would be served by him remaining in the country?

so he can end up in a hole, suppressed, and forgotten, like Manning? or dead like Danny Casolaro, or Mike Hastings, or any of the other people who have come forward with information about government wrongdoing?

in the late 1700s, the kingdom of great britian did not have the ability to remotely take over someone's horse, and make it blow up, or crash into something..they did not have the ability to fire a missile up your ass from miles away, they didn't have the abilities the federal government has at it's disposal today to suppress and silence whistleblowers....the ONLY way to ensure his safety, was to leave...how can you not see this?

Originally posted by zeeon

Originally posted by Daedalus
and the fact that you think flyersfan's wild accusations, based on speculation, instead of hard facts and evidence, is somehow not flawed, tells me where your mind is at...

objectivity is key...unless you can maintain objectivity, you are incapable of logical deduction, or following the evidence. everyone here screaming "traitor", and "he gave away secrets to the enemy" like a broken record, without even having any facts, is allowing personal bias to interfere with rational thought, and is therefore, lacking in credibility...

I don't think you understand what objectivity and logical deduction really are.

When an adversary doesn't know what your capabilities are, they are at a severe disadvantage.
When an adversary does know what your capabilities are, they can be mitigated, or at worst - leveraged against you.

Snowden leaked TOP SECRET / SCI details on our (The United States of America) capabilities to defend ourselves against foriegn enemies. It's really that simple. Unless you think (through your exceptional ability to deduce) that the NSA is interested in what you talked with your mother, or brother, or friend, or father about last week on the phone.

Because yes, it's logical to spend BILLIONS of dollars on this technology to intercept those kinds of communications with your friends and family.
Or, because it's logical to spend BILLIONS of dollars on this technology to frame or catch Joe the Plumber for over charging his last client by 10%.
OR because it's logical to spend BILLIONS of dollars on this technology to catch someone using that racial epithet.

More likely (let me illustrate those logical deduction skills for you), our Government spent BILLIONS of dollars on that NSA technology to implement a mandate by the people of this country for further protection from foriegn adversaries that clearly illustrate a clear and present danger to the national interests of this country that have the very real potential to disrupt the life, liberty and persuit of happiness and security of every living American in the United States - ALL asked for by the majority of her people.

The fact that Edward Snowden released our capabilties to prevent that very real danger, has given our enemies the ability to - at the very least - circumvent them.

ok, so you believe that PRISM is a national security secret, and essential to the preservation of the historically traditional american way of life, and the continued existence of these united states?

reply to post by Guadeloupe



Indeed that at least says something and has actual meaning then blindly standing on a soapbox pushing some sort of agenda.

I found this bit in the article rather relevant as well:

“I don’t know for sure whether [Snowden] has more documents than the ones he has given me,” Greenwald said. “I believe he does. He was clear he did not want to give to journalists things he did not think should be published.”

However, Greenwald said that in his dealings with Snowden the 30-year-old systems administrator was adamant that he and his newspaper go through the document and only publish what served the public’s right to know. “Snowden himself was vehement from the start that we do engage in that journalistic process and we not gratuitously publish things,” Greenwald said. “I do know he was vehement about that. He was not trying to harm the U.S. government; he was trying to shine light on it.”

It actually confirms the opposite as certain users here have been trying to claim.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
reply to post by Daedalus

 

Seriously dude ... stop obsessing with me. You've gone through all 10 pages and pulled every post I've made TO OTHER PEOPLE and yelled at me because I have a different opinion on the matter than you do. Just stop.

i'm not obsessing with you...i'm debating, and pointing out your lack of proof....the fact that you have not been able to refute my arguments is very telling.....you'd rather try to make it look like i'm making this about you....it's not about you, it's about your lack of proof, and unsubstantiated claims being bandied about as irrefutable fact and truth.

i may have posted in reply to statements you made to other people...the fact that they were directed originally to others, bears no impact on their dubious validity....i am allowed to reply to anything i find to be suspect, regardless of the originally intended recipient...this is, after all, a public debate on a public board.

this is not about differing conclusions, this is about facts and evidence, of which you have none.

Originally posted by zeeon

Originally posted by imalitehaus

Originally posted by zeeon
reply to post by Daedalus

 

No - YOUR logic is flawed - as well as almost every other poster on here except FlyersFan.

What Snowden exposed WAS NOT ILLEGAL. Very likely, YOU and all of the other people espousing the very incorrect notion that the NSA spying is illegal VOTED the law that made it legal.That law is called the Patriot Act.

And if you voted for Obama, you voted for this (because he renewed and expanded it).
If you voted for any of the Senators and/or Congressman or women that approved the Patriot Act - you voted for this.

So can we PLEASE stop espousing that what the NSA is doing is illegal. IT IS LEGAL.
And for those of you who do not understand Constitutional Law - something can indeed be Legal AND Unconstitional. The constitutionality of what the NSA is doing has yet to be determined - so for now - what the NSA is doing is legal.

So the real narrative here is that Snowden exposed something that is morally objectionable - but not illegal.
Something the majority of you (yes, Majority because Obama was re-elected by majority) WANTED.

It is NOT legal. The FISA court found the NSA spying to be unconstitutional and illegal. The DOJ is trying to hide the full 86-page ruling, but the fact of illegality by the NSA is now known by all.

See elouina's excellent thread here: Justice Dept. Loses Round in Battle to Keep Surveillance Wrongdoing Secret

Wrong again. What that thread is about is the FISA Courts "secret" interpretation of a clause of the Patriot Act.
That clause has already been discussed as part of the NSA Hearings on the Hill. General Alexander already told us which clauses they use in the Patriot Act. That case you referenced is about getting the courts official interpretation of that clause.

So no - it is not illegal. Next?

i believe the general also purgered himself before a senate committee, when he said that the NSA lack both the technical wherewithal, and legal authority to monitor and store domestic telephonic communications of united states citizens...this was later shown to be untrue, they ARE monitoring and recording domestic telephonic communications of united states citizens.