Amnesty International weighs in on Snowden

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by xavi1000
You have an agenda here i can smell it ..too much posts on attacking Snowden , and not adreesing the message.

:shk: Just stop it ...

1 - I have stated that if Snowden had stopped at just telling the USA about NSA spying on it's citizens, then he'd be right up there with Nathan Hale and Paul Revere, as far as I'm concerned.

2 - I have stated that Snowden went too far when he ran to China and started giving up National Security Secrets. That is an activity that is WORTHY of attacking.

3 - Your 'agenda' statement ... straw man absurdum.

and you're just plain absurd....

YOU HAVE NO PROOF that state secrets were divulged to foreign governments.....no proof whatsoever...

you are basing this assertion on your OPINION...which is not proof, or fact....

kangaroo court much?

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by crazyewok

 

So dig up 200+ year old examples to 'justify' ones opinion alrightie then some of us don't have to.

Look like in the USA your history lessons skip over that lesson of the revolution and just focus on the hero patriotic part

Is that right?

'Patriotic Heros' don't cut and run, they stay and fight.

You mean the same patriotic heroes that used guerilla hit-n-run tactics?

But anyway, I hope no country folds to the US goverment. If nothing else just to spite them. China and Russia with 99% certainty already knew that the US was spying on them - Its just that the rest of the world including every American didnt know they where being spied on as well. It too bad we arent all Americans. Then we could have sued the crap out of them

Originally posted by Daedalus
and the fact that you think flyersfan's wild accusations, based on speculation, instead of hard facts and evidence, is somehow not flawed, tells me where your mind is at...

objectivity is key...unless you can maintain objectivity, you are incapable of logical deduction, or following the evidence. everyone here screaming "traitor", and "he gave away secrets to the enemy" like a broken record, without even having any facts, is allowing personal bias to interfere with rational thought, and is therefore, lacking in credibility...

I don't think you understand what objectivity and logical deduction really are.

When an adversary doesn't know what your capabilities are, they are at a severe disadvantage.
When an adversary does know what your capabilities are, they can be mitigated, or at worst - leveraged against you.

Snowden leaked TOP SECRET / SCI details on our (The United States of America) capabilities to defend ourselves against foriegn enemies. It's really that simple. Unless you think (through your exceptional ability to deduce) that the NSA is interested in what you talked with your mother, or brother, or friend, or father about last week on the phone.

Because yes, it's logical to spend BILLIONS of dollars on this technology to intercept those kinds of communications with your friends and family.
Or, because it's logical to spend BILLIONS of dollars on this technology to frame or catch Joe the Plumber for over charging his last client by 10%.
OR because it's logical to spend BILLIONS of dollars on this technology to catch someone using that racial epithet.

More likely (let me illustrate those logical deduction skills for you), our Government spent BILLIONS of dollars on that NSA technology to implement a mandate by the people of this country for further protection from foriegn adversaries that clearly illustrate a clear and present danger to the national interests of this country that have the very real potential to disrupt the life, liberty and persuit of happiness and security of every living American in the United States - ALL asked for by the majority of her people.

The fact that Edward Snowden released our capabilties to prevent that very real danger, has given our enemies the ability to - at the very least - circumvent them.

reply to post by zeeon


The patriot act has been discussed ,negotiated and signed behind closed doors. The fact that it only took them 45 days after and with 9/11 as a catalyst to activate it is telling here in.


The NSA's spying activities as discussed actually already have been deemed unconstitutional an illegal btw.
So , no the NSA has not been conducting these activities legally.

reply to post by Daedalus

Seriously dude ... stop obsessing with me. You've gone through all 10 pages and pulled every post I've made TO OTHER PEOPLE and yelled at me because I have a different opinion on the matter than you do. Just stop.

reply to post by crazyewok

Those that forget history are doomed to repeat its mistakes and forget its succeces!

So Russia and China are 'beacons of freedom, and democracy and liberty' ?

Sounds like some revisionist history from this perspective

They do if staying means they would be thrown into a dark hole were there message could never get out or they could never make a diffrence.

Must have watched too many hollywood movies there.

reply to post by merka

You mean the same patriotic heroes that used guerilla hit-n-run tactics?

Like Russia and China did in Vietnam?

Like Russia is doing in Syria, and other parts of the ME?

In fact every 'conflict' of the past 50 years those have been Russian bullets/bombs killing people that doesn't matter

Back to Snowden is so 'dreamy'.

Originally posted by neo96


So Russia and China are 'beacons of freedom, and democracy and liberty' ?

Sounds like some revisionist history from this perspective

No they are evil and tyranical!

The same as Spain and France were circa 1776 but your patriotic Heros of the past still went for them for help didnt they?

Originally posted by neo96
Must have watched too many hollywood movies there.

You really think they would let Snowden speak to a reporter in any way while in prison? You think they would let him release any statemnets what so ever?

Originally posted by Tykonos
reply to post by xavi1000

 

You see , my signature is like people of you , you are worthy attacking for making these claims, Snowden is not a spy , if he was he will be now in Beijing or Moscow enjoying ,,,but he is now running and running.... Snowden sacrifice his life for people like you ordinary people who wants their privacy protected which is fundamental part of freedom if you understand what is that. History is being made and unfolding as we speak ... those on the wrong side of it by obstructing and impeding the truth from emerging are noted and shall be remembered.

I haven't seen FlyersFan calling Snowdon a spy.

He's not running, he's gone missing in Russia, who still to my knowledge say they don't know where he is.

History is being made as we speak, you're right. You are obstructing and impeding truth from emerging by denying others the right to speculate an opposing view to yours.

edit on 25-6-2013 by Tykonos because: (no reason given)

actually, FF is of the opinion that Snowden may have been recruited by the chinese, and then got the jobs an NSA/CIA to gather information for them (AKA: Spying)...so yeah, FF did kinda call him a spy...

which is funny...all these baseless accusations....dragging the man through the mud, when he/she/wtfever has absolutely ZERO proof that ANY of their assertions have ANY actual fact-based merit....

Originally posted by imalitehaus

Originally posted by zeeon
reply to post by Daedalus

 

No - YOUR logic is flawed - as well as almost every other poster on here except FlyersFan.

What Snowden exposed WAS NOT ILLEGAL. Very likely, YOU and all of the other people espousing the very incorrect notion that the NSA spying is illegal VOTED the law that made it legal.That law is called the Patriot Act.

And if you voted for Obama, you voted for this (because he renewed and expanded it).
If you voted for any of the Senators and/or Congressman or women that approved the Patriot Act - you voted for this.

So can we PLEASE stop espousing that what the NSA is doing is illegal. IT IS LEGAL.
And for those of you who do not understand Constitutional Law - something can indeed be Legal AND Unconstitional. The constitutionality of what the NSA is doing has yet to be determined - so for now - what the NSA is doing is legal.

So the real narrative here is that Snowden exposed something that is morally objectionable - but not illegal.
Something the majority of you (yes, Majority because Obama was re-elected by majority) WANTED.

It is NOT legal. The FISA court found the NSA spying to be unconstitutional and illegal. The DOJ is trying to hide the full 86-page ruling, but the fact of illegality by the NSA is now known by all.

See elouina's excellent thread here: Justice Dept. Loses Round in Battle to Keep Surveillance Wrongdoing Secret

Wrong again. What that thread is about is the FISA Courts "secret" interpretation of a clause of the Patriot Act.
That clause has already been discussed as part of the NSA Hearings on the Hill. General Alexander already told us which clauses they use in the Patriot Act. That case you referenced is about getting the courts official interpretation of that clause.

So no - it is not illegal. Next?

Originally posted by FlyersFan
reply to post by Daedalus

 

Seriously dude ... stop obsessing with me. You've gone through all 10 pages and pulled every post I've made TO OTHER PEOPLE and yelled at me because I have a different opinion on the matter than you do. Just stop.

I have read the entire thread and know for a fact he has not been doing that for 10 pages, yet another claim you make based on false and non existent information. Which is probably why you feel so "attacked" (judging by that response you just made) simply because you have been repeating the same line of false information over and over again and one you have been called out for many times by now but have yet to present proof for as has been requested as many times as you have made the claim.


So, why not take this chance right now and present us with your evidence for the fact you claim that is that Mr.Snowden has indeed given his information to china and russia.


Again, if you are once again incapable then it might be a better idea to stop selling this idea off. It will also remove all this negative attention that you are generating towards yourself for which you are complaining about.


^ all that would be the most sensible solutions to your problem would you not agree?

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by xavi1000
You need to grow up ,

No .... that need goes to people who state that those who disagree with them are 'obstructing and impeding truth' and/or have an agenda

If you want to think this guy is some kind of hero. Go right ahead. Knock yourself out.
I will reserve dubbing him 'hero' until all the facts are in and the dust has settled.
Considering that he's running around foreign countries giving away national security secrets ...
I doubt that 'hero' will be anything I'll be calling him ....

it's funny that you require facts as your standard of proof, before you'll call him a "hero", but your standard of proof to label(libel) him a "traitor", is significantly lower...

truly funny, that..

I just watched an interesting interview that Putin engaged in, and he states Russia was not given any information they didn't already know from Snowden.....now I understand that I need to take anything said by a politician with a grain of salt.....but he seems to be supporting the position of many Americans better then our President....if you can watch it.....the NSA portion of the interview occurs in the beginning, what are others thoughts?

reply to post by Daedalus

YOU HAVE NO PROOF that state secrets were divulged to foreign governments.....no proof whatsoever...

you are basing this assertion on your OPINION...which is not proof, or fact....

WIth all due respect, there is no question whatsoever that he has divuldged secrets to non-Americans, if not to agents of a foreign nation. That second part would be a pain in the butt to prove in court but isn't necessary to prove, either.

On the face of it, one can say that of course he exposed secrets, because if he hadn't, his value as a whistle blower itself would have been almost worthless. The question is just where the line is, for those who agree there is one, between whistle blowing bad conduct and treasonous compromise of National Security.

Snowden’s Leaks on China Could Affect Its Role in His Fate

That refers to his own releases through the Guardian and other media he has communicated with. His choice to give fine detail of internal operations/methods for intelligence gathering in China. That's pretty far beyond looking to bust U.S. abuses.

There is something else to consider...and it's something I do consider when thinking about the actions in this case.

SIEGEL: Thinking back to the release of the Pentagon Papers, and in more recent times, of the WikiLeaks documents - Julian Assange will cite you as precedent - do you think there is a place for a great deal of classified information about military engagements?

Mr. ELLSBERG: Of course - a lot of information that is properly classified for a time. You know, the dates and time of the Normandy landing was, obviously, a super secret. How secret did they need to be, let's say, on June 15th of 1944?

SIEGEL: So for the duration of operations, and while lives are at risk immediately, you can see the cause for classification. After that, it's just a matter...

Mr. ELLSBERG: Look, I worked in that system. Of course, I can. I stamped plenty of stuff secret or top secret. And I have no apologies for that, at the time.

Source

Even the 'role model' of leakers neither ran to enemy nations to seek shelter (and the bad guys back then were NO less scary. Worse..really. They got away with more, IMO), he also ..after everything... agrees with the need for Secrecy and Security. Albeit FAR FAR short of how it's actually used, and that I agree with.

However.. it's not Snowden's place to start deciding what about international intelligence games, he only ever could have seen small segments of, are now fair game to burn from the US side so the other can grow stronger by it.

Crusading to break up actions by abusive agencies was noble. Standing up and being willing to remain standing for his beliefs was noble. Peddling ALL he knows for safety and taking no consequence in the process starts looking a whole lot less noble, IMO.

Originally posted by Daedalus

Originally posted by Tykonos
reply to post by xavi1000

 

You see , my signature is like people of you , you are worthy attacking for making these claims, Snowden is not a spy , if he was he will be now in Beijing or Moscow enjoying ,,,but he is now running and running.... Snowden sacrifice his life for people like you ordinary people who wants their privacy protected which is fundamental part of freedom if you understand what is that. History is being made and unfolding as we speak ... those on the wrong side of it by obstructing and impeding the truth from emerging are noted and shall be remembered.

I haven't seen FlyersFan calling Snowdon a spy.

He's not running, he's gone missing in Russia, who still to my knowledge say they don't know where he is.

History is being made as we speak, you're right. You are obstructing and impeding truth from emerging by denying others the right to speculate an opposing view to yours.

edit on 25-6-2013 by Tykonos because: (no reason given)

actually, FF is of the opinion that Snowden may have been recruited by the chinese, and then got the jobs an NSA/CIA to gather information for them (AKA: Spying)...so yeah, FF did kinda call him a spy...

which is funny...all these baseless accusations....dragging the man through the mud, when he/she/wtfever has absolutely ZERO proof that ANY of their assertions have ANY actual fact-based merit....

edit on 25-6-2013 by Daedalus because: (no reason given)

Here's a fact. Snowden SIGNED and AGREED to keep our Nations secret - SECRET.
After signing that agreement, he was bound by LAW to keep it secret.
Or is the rule of law something we don't care about anymore?

Furthermore, he could have exposed the NSA for spying without exposing our National secrets.
He didn't do that though, did he? He went balls out and exposed everything - without any thought of the potential ramifications his actions might bring (especially on the rest of us, who unlike him - are still living in America).

Originally posted by zeeon

The fact that Edward Snowden released our capabilties to prevent that very real danger, has given our enemies the ability to - at the very least - circumvent them.

nonsense. Anyone with half a brain cell can communicate secretly even when somebody is eavesdropping. The security services know this. The technology they use is only good at catching amateurs and generating list of undesirable native citizens. An awful lot of people are too naieve to understand this. Who said Snowdon had released state secrets? The Guardian?. The Russians? The Chinese? Snowdon? A hacker? Or a pissed off embarrassed agency caught snooping on ordinary citizens? Duh! Wake up whilst YOU still have the ability to protest. You don't have long.

reply to post by zeeon


A contract is only binding if the implications of the contract are following the law itself. If a contract binds you to support illegal activities then such a contract loses all its legal bindings by definition and would make a criminal out of anyone who held him or herself to that contract.

reply to post by Shadowphile


In theory, sure, how well do you think that will hold up when they try him (either in person or absentia?)

Originally posted by zeeon

Originally posted by Daedalus

Originally posted by Tykonos
reply to post by xavi1000

 

You see , my signature is like people of you , you are worthy attacking for making these claims, Snowden is not a spy , if he was he will be now in Beijing or Moscow enjoying ,,,but he is now running and running.... Snowden sacrifice his life for people like you ordinary people who wants their privacy protected which is fundamental part of freedom if you understand what is that. History is being made and unfolding as we speak ... those on the wrong side of it by obstructing and impeding the truth from emerging are noted and shall be remembered.

I haven't seen FlyersFan calling Snowdon a spy.

He's not running, he's gone missing in Russia, who still to my knowledge say they don't know where he is.

History is being made as we speak, you're right. You are obstructing and impeding truth from emerging by denying others the right to speculate an opposing view to yours.

edit on 25-6-2013 by Tykonos because: (no reason given)

actually, FF is of the opinion that Snowden may have been recruited by the chinese, and then got the jobs an NSA/CIA to gather information for them (AKA: Spying)...so yeah, FF did kinda call him a spy...

which is funny...all these baseless accusations....dragging the man through the mud, when he/she/wtfever has absolutely ZERO proof that ANY of their assertions have ANY actual fact-based merit....

edit on 25-6-2013 by Daedalus because: (no reason given)

Furthermore, he could have exposed the NSA for spying without exposing our National secrets.

Criminal activity covered by the classification "National Security" cannot be exposed in any other way.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Use as many cuss words as you can get away with ..

Nice Ad Hominem..attack me all you want, it doesn't improve your credibility

that doesn't change the fact that he is exposing national security secrets OTHER THAN the NSA Spy on Americans program. And those other secrets do indeed hurt our national security.

As I said .. I applaud the part about revealing the NSA Spy on Americans program.
But he took it too far by going overseas and revealing security info to China and Russia.

you keep saying this over and over again, but have yet to produce anything even remotely resembling proof...but let's not let inconsequential niceties like proof, facts, and evidence get in the way of a good time, in the form of wild accusations, baseless claims, and logical fallacies galore..