Amnesty International weighs in on Snowden

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Daedalus
would you kindly shut the hell up?

No. You'll just have to learn to tolerate that people come to different conclusions than you do.
My conclusion at this time .. Snowden went too far with his disclosures.
If you want to hero-worship him. Go right ahead.
But chill out and stop cussing at those of us who have, based on common sense, decided not to.

nothing about what you've said is rooted in common sense....it is speculation and theory, based on, from what i can tell, absolutely nothing...

i tend to operate on facts and evidence...but who the hell needs any of that silly stuff, AMIRITE?

i'm all for differing conclusions, but only if they are based in some kind of tangible, verifiable proof, or evidence of proof...

so far, you've not ponied it up. so far, all you've done is repeat the same baseless claims...

Originally posted by neo96

Rationalize that anyway you want the enemy of my enemy has been historical proven to still be an enemy.

And rationalize your support of tyranny .

Originally posted by neo96
Guess people want to ignore they only thing standing between them and Russia and China is their own government.

China and Russia may be pretty bad but the whole they want to kill you all is just silly goverment propaganda. Yeah they would like to see the USA go from a hyper power to a more balanced superpower but they dont have intrest actually invasion

Anyway you beloved goverment is slowly year by year becomeing your enemy.

Originally posted by Daedalus
until then, you are speculating, and making wild accusations...

Common sense says he's probably given them the information. Therefore, I won't be calling him a 'hero' until I know that he hasn't. The only speculating and wild assumptions going on are with those who are prematurely calling him a hero. He's obviously not in China and Russia to attend conventions on growing roses ... ya' know?

Originally posted by cartenz

China and Russia aren't going to help America.
They will do everything they can to weaken America.

Good. I have been waiting my whole life to see the evil empire burn like Rome. My only hope is that none of its worst elements are allowed to survive the inferno.

The world has held their breath too long, hoping that the collectively cognitive impaired state known as Umerrka matures to be a competent world citizen--you have had your chance; Its time to take that lame horse to the glue factory.

I mean that in the most contemptuous way.

that's going a bit far...

you must also remember that any "empire" also has citizens, who are largely innocent....

the american people, while collectively ignorant, and at times, stupid, are not to blame for the actions of a government gone rogue..

wishing ill on all of us is...un-good...

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Daedalus
until then, you are speculating, and making wild accusations...

Common sense says he's probably given them the information. Therefore, I won't be calling him a 'hero' until I know that he hasn't. The only speculating and wild assumptions going on are with those who are prematurely calling him a hero. He's obviously not in China and Russia to attend conventions on growing roses ... ya' know?

common sense also dictates that we do not know what information he left the country with. common sense dictates that it is idiotic to make claims based on unknown quantities, until those quantities become known in full.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Heliophant
Innocent until proven guilty.

This is China and Russia we are talking about. OF COURSE they are going to milk as much super-secret info from Snowden as they possibly can. They want the downfall of America. To sit back and say 'innocent until proven guilty' doesn't work. This is international politics ... not an American court system.

and did it ever occur to you that IF he met with anyone other than press, and IF he did "give away" any "super-duper secret state defense super secrets", that it may have been minimally important stuff, or even outright fabrications, that only SOUNDED legit?

there's a lot of if's...there's still no PROOF any of it happened....

reply to post by crazyewok

And rationalize your support of tyranny .

Is that right?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Paying any attention to that 'tyranny' in Russia and China guess not doesn't fit the 'narrative'.

Originally posted by Computron

Originally posted by Tykonos


Some people are happy to stick their head in the sand and hope he has nothing worthy of value for Russia to use against the US.

There is indeed lots of speculation without little fact about what secrets he holds.

The point is, those secrets are now in Russia's hands, given to them by an American citizen.

Lol, so yall are getting so worked up, over something you know so little about? Wow. I mean for all we know he could be holding the secret recipe for kfc chicken!! "Oh god, please help the national security of kfc's original 5 piece recipe!!!!!"

edit on 25-6-2013 by Computron because: (no reason given)

HOW DARE YOU! THAT COMBINATION OF HERBS, SPICES, AND SEASONINGS IS CRITICAL TO THE SECURITY OF OBESE PEOPLE ALL OVER OUR FINE NATION!

you are an evil traitor, and i hope you burn in hell!

i also have it on good authority that he nicked the recepie to Busch's baked beans....

reply to post by Daedalus


No - YOUR logic is flawed - as well as almost every other poster on here except FlyersFan.

What Snowden exposed WAS NOT ILLEGAL. Very likely, YOU and all of the other people espousing the very incorrect notion that the NSA spying is illegal VOTED the law that made it legal.That law is called the Patriot Act.

And if you voted for Obama, you voted for this (because he renewed and expanded it).
If you voted for any of the Senators and/or Congressman or women that approved the Patriot Act - you voted for this.

So can we PLEASE stop espousing that what the NSA is doing is illegal. IT IS LEGAL.
And for those of you who do not understand Constitutional Law - something can indeed be Legal AND Unconstitional. The constitutionality of what the NSA is doing has yet to be determined - so for now - what the NSA is doing is legal.

So the real narrative here is that Snowden exposed something that is morally objectionable - but not illegal.
Something the majority of you (yes, Majority because Obama was re-elected by majority) WANTED.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Computron
Ummmmm WHAT NATIONAL SECURITY SECRETS DID HE GIVE?!

ummmmm What part of this is China and Russia that we are dealing with don't you get?
Snowden has had access to massive amounts of national security information. And he's
freely blabbing. COMMON SENSE ... Russia and China want the USA weakened and
Snowden is proudly blabbing. THEY HAVE SECRETS.

so, you're perfectly ok with the idea of basing your opinion and conclusions on conjecture and speculation, born of some warped version of patriotism/nationalism, and maybe personal prejudice of other nations?

how do you expect to retain even the smallest shred of credibility in a debate, when you demonstrate that this way of thinking is acceptable? i submit that you are incapable of remaining objective, and following the evidence...this isn't the first time i've seen you fly off the handle, and pull this crap.

could you try to take a step back, and ATTEMPT to exercise some logic, and common sense here?

Originally posted by zeeon
reply to post by Daedalus

 

No - YOUR logic is flawed - as well as almost every other poster on here except FlyersFan.

What Snowden exposed WAS NOT ILLEGAL. Very likely, YOU and all of the other people espousing the very incorrect notion that the NSA spying is illegal VOTED the law that made it legal.That law is called the Patriot Act.

And if you voted for Obama, you voted for this (because he renewed and expanded it).
If you voted for any of the Senators and/or Congressman or women that approved the Patriot Act - you voted for this.

So can we PLEASE stop espousing that what the NSA is doing is illegal. IT IS LEGAL.
And for those of you who do not understand Constitutional Law - something can indeed be Legal AND Unconstitional. The constitutionality of what the NSA is doing has yet to be determined - so for now - what the NSA is doing is legal.

So the real narrative here is that Snowden exposed something that is morally objectionable - but not illegal.
Something the majority of you (yes, Majority because Obama was re-elected by majority) WANTED.

firstly, i did not vote for obama..not that it's any of your business....

secondly, i didn't vote for any of the other corporate shills that made the patriot act happen, or re-happen..not that it's any of your business....

and lastly, what the NSA is doing IS illegal......their actions violate the 4th amendment, AND NSA'S legal restriction on domestic intelligence gathering. this is fact....

they are breaking the law, and using the "secret" shield to hide their crimes...

and the fact that you think flyersfan's wild accusations, based on speculation, instead of hard facts and evidence, is somehow not flawed, tells me where your mind is at...

objectivity is key...unless you can maintain objectivity, you are incapable of logical deduction, or following the evidence. everyone here screaming "traitor", and "he gave away secrets to the enemy" like a broken record, without even having any facts, is allowing personal bias to interfere with rational thought, and is therefore, lacking in credibility...

The U.s government as Spat the dummy out , so to speak cause they have being found out what true conniving liars and hypocrites they truly are. Edward Snowdon is a saint he's got the big cahonneys its makes you really wonder what the cia and nsa are really up to I wonder if they no what colour loo role I have been using ??

Originally posted by neo96


Paying any attention to that 'tyranny' in Russia and China guess not doesn't fit the 'narrative'.

Im not saying that Russia and China are not evil or Tyrannical. They are !

But at the end of the day so were France and Spain, far more than Britain was. Yet your founding farther went to them for help.


If you want change you have to do some distasteful things and get into bed with some distasteful people.
Look like in the USA your history lessons skip over that lesson of the revolution and just focus on the hero patriotic part.

Originally posted by Daedalus

and lastly, what the NSA is doing IS illegal......their actions violate the 4th amendment, AND NSA'S legal restriction on domestic intelligence gathering. this is fact....

they are breaking the law, and using the "secret" shield to hide their crimes...

You have a source for that legal restriction on domestic intelligence gathering?
A source besides the 4th?

Originally posted by Daedalus
so, you're perfectly ok with the idea of basing your opinion and conclusions on conjecture and speculation,

You sure are.

born of some warped version of patriotism/nationalism, and maybe personal prejudice of other nations?

blah blah blah. Again .. grow up.

how do you expect to retain even the smallest shred of credibility in a debate,

Considering that I"m basing my conclusion on common sense instead of inflamed blind hero worship, I'm thinking my credibility is in a much better position than yours is.

could you try to take a step back, and ATTEMPT to exercise some logic, and common sense here?

Could YOU try to take a step back and ATTEMPT to exercise some logic, and common sense here? And perhaps give a try at staying on topic and not attempting deflection with personal insult after personal insult. I'm finding it interesting that you are going through the entire thread and pulling up every post I"ve made TO OTHER PEOPLE and responding to them. OCD much? Learn to tolerate the fact that other people will come to different conclusions than you do and that it's okay. Relax.

Originally posted by zeeon
reply to post by Daedalus

 

No - YOUR logic is flawed - as well as almost every other poster on here except FlyersFan.

What Snowden exposed WAS NOT ILLEGAL. Very likely, YOU and all of the other people espousing the very incorrect notion that the NSA spying is illegal VOTED the law that made it legal.That law is called the Patriot Act.

And if you voted for Obama, you voted for this (because he renewed and expanded it).
If you voted for any of the Senators and/or Congressman or women that approved the Patriot Act - you voted for this.

So can we PLEASE stop espousing that what the NSA is doing is illegal. IT IS LEGAL.
And for those of you who do not understand Constitutional Law - something can indeed be Legal AND Unconstitional. The constitutionality of what the NSA is doing has yet to be determined - so for now - what the NSA is doing is legal.

So the real narrative here is that Snowden exposed something that is morally objectionable - but not illegal.
Something the majority of you (yes, Majority because Obama was re-elected by majority) WANTED.

It is NOT legal. The FISA court found the NSA spying to be unconstitutional and illegal. The DOJ is trying to hide the full 86-page ruling, but the fact of illegality by the NSA is now known by all.

See elouina's excellent thread here: Justice Dept. Loses Round in Battle to Keep Surveillance Wrongdoing Secret

reply to post by crazyewok


So dig up 200+ year old examples to 'justify' ones opinion alrightie then some of us don't have to.

Look like in the USA your history lessons skip over that lesson of the revolution and just focus on the hero patriotic part

Is that right?

'Patriotic Heros' don't cut and run, they stay and fight.

reply to post by FlyersFan


When Snowden release the information about the NSA spying on American citizens to the American press, did Russia and China find out?

When Snowden released the information about the NSA spying on China to Chinese press, did America and Russia find out?

In my opinion, releasing information to the press is not the same as releasing information to the government. Snowden has stated many times that he will only speak to the press, so yes, the governments of the world will learn of it, but so will every citizen as well.

DC

The NSA says, that they didn't spy on US citizens, but everyone else. So I think everyone else dosen't like that.

I'm also not quite sure if the "government" of the US is in any way able to decide or change anything about the desolate state the country is in.

A hunt for Snowden would only decrease the cedibility of the US / UK clusterfu*k

The USA is going down.

Besides military spending the US can't compete with most develloped countries in the world, when it comes to health and education.

Simple needs, not covered. A small, declining upper class is still trying to safe the sinking ship.



„Was du nicht willst, dass man dir tu’, das füg’ auch keinem anderen zu.“

Martin Luther

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by neo96
[
So dig up 200+ year old examples to 'justify' ones opinion alrightie then some of us don't have to.

Those that forget history are doomed to repeat its mistakes and forget its succeces!

Originally posted by neo96
'Patriotic Heros' don't cut and run, they stay and fight.

They do if staying means they would be thrown into a dark hole were there message could never get out or they could never make a diffrence.