Occupy Oakland: Death to Capitalism

reply to post by daggyz


who you talking to? if your talking to me. this # is a way of life for me. i'm only 25 and i've already allowed people to live in my apartments rent free. i've fed and sheltered people i hardly even knew. i'm willing to give the shirt off my back to anyone that needs it. you don't know me so don't come at me like that. i grew up a very blessed person, and i saw that since i was blessed it was my duty to bless others. if there is absolutely one thing i can be proud of is that when i heard the story of Jesus as a child the one thing that always stuck with me was his humility. how he was always helping the poor sick and tired.

I suggest everyone read "The Socialist Phenomenon" and compare what it's saying about other civilizations and our own and realize what a blessing Capitalism has been.

Originally posted by mr10k
Communism didn't get Russia into outer space, Sergei Korolev and his team of fantasticly smart scientists did.
Communism didn't get China to where it is technologically, their scientists did.
Economic systems don't affect either of these things

Exactly... and that is what I was trying to show mr10k who was busily preaching the wonders of america and capitolism. Both being america and being capitolist had nothing to do with americas sucesses

Originally posted by mr10k

Originally posted by hudsonhawk69

Originally posted by mr10k
Capitalism isn't a bad thing. It helps a country grow. That is what we need right now. America needs to grow. The biggest 'Country' in the entire world is Bankopia with it's capital, Bankberg. Driven by the greed of huge corporate business owners. Yes, Capitalism is what caused those big corporate monopolies, but Capitalism is also what fueled the Industrial Age which helped America prosper and become the big world power it is today, minus the greed and corruption.

Capitolism makes the rich richer and the poor poorer. That's what it's designed to do.
Russias' sucess with their space program during the cold was under a communist government. Chinas current economic sucess and technoligical sucess is also under a communist government.
Large portions of americans technology has been developed by foreign scientists. Let's stop pretending that capitolists america is the saviour of the world.
Capitolism will bring about global economic collapse.

That is the most ignorant thing I have ever heard

You should get out more... It's the truth and it's based in fact not fiction.

Originally posted by 547000
I suggest everyone read "The Socialist Phenomenon" and compare what it's saying about other civilizations and our own and realize what a blessing Capitalism has been.

edit on 3-11-2011 by 547000 because: (no reason given)

Capitolism is a con. It just makes the rich richer and the poor poorer... It's not that different from paying taxes to a monarchy or a dictator only big business and corperations are raping the people instead of kings, queens and dictators.

Capitalism will not go down without a fight. All of you libtards need to understand this. Us NEOCON's have more weapons than the entire US Military.

Originally posted by rockledr
Capitalism will not go down without a fight. All of you libtards need to understand this. Us NEOCON's have more weapons than the entire US Military.

I'm sure that capitolism is not going to go without a fight. However, the impending global economic collapse will certainly be a kick in the teeth of capitolism.

reply to post by hudsonhawk69


Read the book and tell me that crap again.

Originally posted by hudsonhawk69

Originally posted by 547000
I suggest everyone read "The Socialist Phenomenon" and compare what it's saying about other civilizations and our own and realize what a blessing Capitalism has been.

edit on 3-11-2011 by 547000 because: (no reason given)

Capitolism is a con. It just makes the rich richer and the poor poorer... It's not that different from paying taxes to a monarchy or a dictator only big business and corperations are raping the people instead of kings, queens and dictators.

Did you learn about the horrors of Capitalism from your college professor or from Barack Obama?

You might try reading real stuff about the communist revolution in Russia and learning about the bread lines and other awful manifestations of communism if you want to get rid of Capitalism.
Every time I log into this forum I see people whining about denying ignorance.


Here's a real eye opener

People were glad that they avoided the German occupation and the expectations run high. The poor people expected that the Communists will take away the resources from the rich and distribute them equally to the poor. An equalization of the wealth. What happened was that the Russian took away from the rich and from the poor alike, and the equalization of the poverty took place.

After a while, it dawned on the merchants that there must be a shortage of goods in Russia, and the goods sold were not replaceable. Suddenly shortages developed. Merchant hid the goods and a black market developed. The Russians clamped down. A neighbor of ours was sentenced to five years of prison for hiding ten lemons. Stalin believed that all the economic and social problems of a society can be solved with the proper dosage of terror.

Soon the Workers Paradise featured stores with empty shelves, long bread lines and ample terror. Stalin's was a genius in a revolutionary changing of reality. All the problems were easily solved with changing of the meaning of words: tyranny was called democracy, servitude was called freedom, and lack of merchandise was called abundance.

Afterwards, the Communists increased the dosage of the senseless, unpredictable terror, through resettlements to Siberia. At night, the victims got a knock at the door and a half an hour later they were on the way to the railroad cars with the chimneys, taking them on a thousand mile journey to Siberia.
The selection process of the victims was totally unpredictable

kimel.net...

Maybe you should stop listening to the propaganda of current Marxists in the States and listen instead to the real stories of people who lived through it.

OWS, whom I support (at least the reasonable parts) are just a little confused. They need more libertarians and conservatives to chime in and help them focus rather than bitch at them.

The reason they don't like capitalism, is because they have never known it! What we have and call capitalism are a handful of giant corporations saying it's capitalism through the media they own. It's really just an imitation. Real capitalism is a good thing! These younger kids just see the corruption in the death rattles before the reset button gets hit and we crack down and re institute real capitalism. A lot of conservatives think that regulation for businesses is anti-capitalism, but that's absurd. Corporations have to have regulations or we have the problems we have now. Corrupt CEO's and monopolies. Conservatives have been listening to corporate news channels for the last 20 years to get their definition of capitalism. A true conservative knows regulations are just common sense.

Capitalism is good. OWS, the majority at least, would agree. They juts need to be schooled by sensible conservatives. The ones that should be in the street with them educating them. Don't forget most of the OWS are younger. If they focus maybe we can actually get real capitalism back. They need to focus on: ending conflict of interest between government and corporations, end lobbyists, and end career politicians. Those things would go a long way in restoring capitalism.

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
OWS, whom I support (at least the reasonable parts) are just a little confused. They need more libertarians and conservatives to chime in and help them focus rather than bitch at them.

That is an outstanding point. Instead of focusing on what their agenda should be, the cessation of corporate wellfare and crony capitalism, they have an appreciable number of people running around with assinine banners and signs looking to replace our representative democracy with another form of government and also seek to overthrow capitalism.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
OWS, whom I support (at least the reasonable parts) are just a little confused. They need more libertarians and conservatives to chime in and help them focus rather than bitch at them.

That is an outstanding point. Instead of focusing on what their agenda should be, the cessation of corporate wellfare and crony capitalism, they have an appreciable number of people running around with assinine banners and signs looking to replace our representative democracy with another form of government and also seek to overthrow capitalism.

Have you heard of the four stages of subversion? At the crises stage sleepers awake and, though nobody knows who they are, quickly rise to become leaders. This is before the stage of normalization.

Originally posted by 547000
Have you heard of the four stages of subversion? At the crises stage sleepers awake and, though nobody knows who they are, quickly rise to become leaders. This is before the stage of normalization.

I personally have not seen anyone emerge in the leadership role for Occupy. There are the obvious movers behind the scenes; Adbusters, public and private unions, et al. But no one taking a prominent leadership role for the public to digest.

Originally posted by stuncrazy
reply to post by GringoViejo

 

there is such a disconnect with people. i'm not even lying when i say i don't understand the individualistic mentality.

It doesn't matter if you understand it or not, individual rights are sacred and you can't and won't change that. That means even if you all get together and vote that I don't have the right to free speech, your votes are 100% meaningless. You can't vote, or legislate my rights away. And if you do, you need to prepare to shed blood for your cause.

i can't even begin to comprehend why anyone would feel that it is ok that a single individual catapult to excessive financial success through selfish means and at the expense of another fellow human being.

You're not qualified to determine what is "excessive." Even if you where, your opinions regarding other people's property (opp ) are nothing compared to the person's right to their property. Get over it, this cause is an exercise in futility.

i don't understand the hoarding of resources. like this is YOUR planet. this is OUR planet and should be shared equally. pride and vain glory. the deadliest sins indeed. i weep for the world and it's blind adoration of it's cold heartless monetary god.

I'm not exactly surprised you're crying. Anyways, I never said it was my world. But my property is mine, so keep your grubby hands off of it.

this is a lack of knowledge as to why the amish are the way they are, in a sense you are right, but ultimately what they believe is evil is as i said earlier, pride and vain glory. they dress simply so that no single individual will put itself above the social structure itself. in fact many social structures/religions/philosophical belief's agree that pride and vain glory are the ultimate evil and downfall of man.

pride  noun, verb, prid·ed, prid·ing.
noun
1. a high or inordinate opinion of one's own dignity, importance, merit, or superiority, whether as cherished in the mind or as displayed in bearing, conduct, etc.
2. the state or feeling of being proud.
3. a becoming or dignified sense of what is due to oneself or one's position or character; self-respect; self-esteem.
4. pleasure or satisfaction taken in something done by or belonging to oneself or believed to reflect credit upon oneself: civic pride.
5. something that causes a person or persons to be proud: His art collection was the pride of the family.

vain·glo·ry   [veyn-glawr-ee, -glohr-ee, veyn-glawr-ee, -glohr-ee]
noun
1. excessive elation or pride over one's own achievements, abilities, etc.; boastful vanity.
2. empty pomp or show.

I don't care about your pride or glory. I'm not talking about either, i'm talking about the preservation of individual rights in a free market system. I could care less what any religion says when it comes to the point of rights, it has no bearing, no significance. Like I said, if you want to be Amish, get off the computer and go farm something.

I'll get the second half in a minute

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Really a simple question at this point. 'Death to Capitalism' and then what?

Socialism?

Communism?

Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

Sorry, they lost me with the whole 'global democracy/global regime change' nonsense. I am still for not bailing out banks corporations and corporate wellfare (which I thought was a very worthy cause to protest) but this is a bit too far to be even reasonably considered. It appears that Occupy has been co-opted by a more fringe group, at least in Oakland.

Who knows, but it's pretty clear that the top 1% and massive corporations shouldn't have the influence on politicians and policies as they have now. It's not right that over the past 30 years, the income of the top 1% grew by 275%, while that of the remaining 99% grew by a mere 8.9% (that's over 30 years, NOT per year!!).

And you only feel they're a fringe movement because you get your "information" from biased sources who focus entirely on the few crazy ones participating in the protests.

reply to post by GringoViejo


you show a perfect example of me against the world mentality. as if you deserve to have anything in the world you want no matter the collateral damage. YOU don't. it's that simple. Human rights are sacred and ALL should be protected. what you're basically saying is that drug lords aren't bad because hey they made their riches. f the consequences. who care if the product that is making them rich causes the destruction of families and entire nations. doesn't matter got paid.

crying? I'm not crying. i live a very blessed life, nor do i struggle on a daily basis. I personally am quite satisfied, as it pertains, to my own individual successes. I'm not bitching nor complaining about my life in particular.

it is not i that i stand up for, but for my fellow brothers and sisters. we are a human race. what is best for the whole is best for the pieces that make it up. what damages the individual, residually damages the whole. if you don't understand that you don't understand anything homeboy i'm done talkin.

ETA: your entire argument is based on pride and vain glory. that is not an assumption that is fact. it is the belief that you are in some way shape or form entitled to anything and that you are in some way shape or form better than anyone else. the fact of the matter is it all comes down to luck. it doesn't come from you being special. it doesn't come from your hard work. it doesn't come from anything other than the fact that you were lucky enough for someone to teach you how to work hard and teach you how to live a successful life. if you were raised without the knowledge of how to live a stable healthy life. you wouldn't.

capitalism as a system... can work, but the morality of the people within the system must be strong. money doesn't buy happiness. of that i'm sure. i've had both much wealth and none at all. i've have lacked and i have had excess. neither of which determined my happiness. you make capitalism seem as thought it is the only rode to happiness.

what's the point of life if not to be happy and content?

Originally posted by stuncrazy
reply to post by GringoViejo
idk i think if we were to continue to have capitalism. we need to put a ceiling on the acceptable revenue one person can make. for the precise reason of your rights end exactly where mine begin. (i.e. you don't have the right to live in luxury at the expense of me living in poverty.)

No, you will not have your revenue ceiling. For your own good. It infringes on my rights, and yours, whether it affects you directly or not. You do not get to decide how much property someone can and can't have if the money was earned and spent legally. If you live in poverty, that's not my fault, I already give to my local charities. I do have the right to live in luxury If I wish and am capable of it. You have zero say in the matter. Once you start trying to limit rights, you leave the door open for more rights to be limited, to the point you have to fight for them or die. I'm willing to fight for my rights, are you willing to fight for your ideals?

there shouldn't be classes as we are all created equal.

If we were all created equal, no population in history would have had to come up with the concept of equal protection under law.

i think we need an education system that from the very beginning is made to cultivate each individuals gifts and talents. this can be easily achieved. there are the artists, actors, musicians, analyzers, medics, psychologists, organizers, inventors.... etc... there are a couple more i can't think of right now, but most people fall into these categories and could benefit from academic regiments designed specifically for their special gifts and talents.

We already have trade schools, but I would love to see more.

the system should put the highest emphasis on family, for once the family begins to fall apart the nation and people itself will not be far behind. (don't believe me research it) i mean america was a family oriented country till about the late 50's. modesty should be strictly enforced, because loose morals is also a determinate factor on the success and failure of nations that were not conquered.

The "system" shouldn't be able to put emphasis on anything. The "system" should act how we see fit, tow the line, nothing more. Which is why these protest should be in DC, we should be attempting to restore the constitutional republic to it's former glory, not tear it down and replace it with a more oppressive and insolvent system. Do you know what helped our country skyrocket in power during the 50's? (by the way, it didn't start in the 50's) If you tell me more families you get the dunce cap. Capitalism. Capitalism propelled our country to superpower status, created the middle class, gave everyone the right to choose, instead of the government deciding what companies could produce which products for who.

empires fall from within

Thanks for the random link of questions and answers.
direct democracy gives the best bet. No, it does not, it gives us the best shot at tyranny. Are you willing to shed blood to implement your direct democracy? Because I'm willing to shed blood to protect what is left of the republic!

We are a Republican Government, Real liberty is never found in despotism or in the extremes of democracy...it has been observed that a pure democracy if it were practicable would be the most perfect government. Experience has proved that no position is more false than this. The ancient democracies in which the people themselves deliberated never possessed one good feature of government. Their very character was tyranny; their figure deformity. -Alexander Hamilton, Federalist Papers

A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where 51% of the people may take away the rights of the other 49%. - Thomas Jefferson

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. -Thomas Jefferson

That the desires of the majority of the people are often for injustice and inhumanity against the minority, is demonstrated by every page of the history of the world. - John Adams

Pure democracy cannot subsist long nor be carried far into the departments of state - it is very subject to caprice and the madness of popular rage. John Witherspoon

The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter. -Winston Churchill

Democracy was the right of the people to choose their own tyrant - James Madison

Democracy is the road to socialism.-Karl Marx

edit on 4-11-2011 by GringoViejo because: (no reason given)

reply to post by GringoViejo


as per this last reply. i must concur with your ideas as you did provide some excellent points. well said.

Originally posted by stuncrazy
reply to post by GringoViejo

 

you show a perfect example of me against the world mentality. as if you deserve to have anything in the world you want no matter the collateral damage. YOU don't. it's that simple.

I do if I procured whatever it is legally. Your anger will never change that.

Human rights are sacred and ALL should be protected.

Don't start telling me about rights, are you kidding me? You don't even understand the concept.

what you're basically saying is that drug lords aren't bad because hey they made their riches.

Hey, remember 4 seconds ago when it pissed you off that I said you don't understand the concept of rights? Well, this sentence of yours illustrates my point. If you grasped what I was saying about individual rights you wouldn't blatantly misrepresent my stance. I never said anything close to this. If you can give me a quote, i'd be happy to see it.

f the consequences. who care if the product that is making them rich causes the destruction of families and entire nations. doesn't matter got paid.

This isn't based on any fact, or my views on individual rights. Nice try though.

crying? I'm not crying. i live a very blessed life, nor do i struggle on a daily basis. I personally am quite satisfied, as it pertains, to my own individual successes. I'm not bitching nor complaining about my life in particular.

So you were lying when you say you weep for whatever it is you said you weep for?

it is not i that i stand up for, but for my fellow brothers and sisters. we are a human race. what is best for the whole is best for the pieces that make it up. what damages the individual, residually damages the whole. if you don't understand that you don't understand anything homeboy i'm done talkin.

If this is how you are standing up for them, you are doing them and your country a disservice. The founding fathers would be ashamed.

ETA: your entire argument is based on pride and vain glory. that is not an assumption that is fact. it is the belief that you are in some way shape or form entitled to anything and that you are in some way shape or form better than anyone else. the fact of the matter is it all comes down to luck. it doesn't come from you being special. it doesn't come from your hard work. it doesn't come from anything other than the fact that you were lucky enough for someone to teach you how to work hard and teach you how to live a successful life. if you were raised without the knowledge of how to live a stable healthy life. you wouldn't.

No, it is not. I'm sorry you can't comprehend what I'm saying, but its not my responsibility to teach you how to read.You are confusing pride and glory with knowledge and logic. You fail to understand basic rights, how can you reasonably state what is fact and what isn't? And if you don't believe hard work pays off, well I'm sorry for you. Why would I ever take your ideas seriously if you think everything comes down to luck, and that hard work never pays off? Are you serious? Are you one of the ones that thinks everyone needs to be paid $20/hr regardless if you work or not?

capitalism as a system... can work, but the morality of the people within the system must be strong. money doesn't buy happiness. of that i'm sure. i've had both much wealth and none at all. i've have lacked and i have had excess. neither of which determined my happiness. you make capitalism seem as thought it is the only rode to happiness.

Yes, it does work. You assume a lot though, you assume that because I support capitalism, a free market, that I think possessions or things equate to happiness

what's the point of life if not to be happy and content?

reply to post by stuncrazy


While I do respect your collectivist ideals, they are indeed admirable, I cannot stand behind a system of government that operates that way. Historically it doesn't work. It allows for tyrants to not only be voted in, but to usurp the rights of others under the guise of "the good of the people."

Our founding fathers knew that all government breeds corruption, in some way. That is why the republic was fashioned in the way it was, so when we as a people recognized this, we have the right to petition the government for a redress of our grievances. The Constitution serves as a notification, not an endowment of rights, which we were born with.