Occupy Oakland: Death to Capitalism

Originally posted by stuncrazy
reply to post by GringoViejo

 

so no individual piece should be allowed to make a decision that damages the whole. what if you you wanted to go one way and then all of a sudden your foot was like no man i'm smarter than you i'm gonna go this way. wouldn't work out that well would it?

edit on 2-11-2011 by stuncrazy because: (no reason given)

Sure, because that's how the populations works.

I think people get justifiably confused between captitalism and corporatism and it's no wonder when corporatism is practiced under the name of capitalism. I think people are learning the difference however.

reply to post by GringoViejo


i'll keep it simple since you have yet to answer this question
what makes you or me or anyone else important enough to make a decision that causes discomfort to anyone else?

Originally posted by stuncrazy
reply to post by GringoViejo

 

i'll keep it simple since you have yet to answer this question

Or that my points have been too inconvenient for you to respond to. Hypocritical too, seeings you haven't answered any of mine either. But oh well, OWS people usually give up pretty easily. Which explains why they wish to abolish the current system instead of trying to fix it, which starts in DC by the way, and restore it to how it is supposed to work. Your actions only expose yourselves.

what makes you or me or anyone else important enough to make a decision that causes discomfort to anyone else?

That all depends on what your are talking about when you use the term discomfort. Its been said before though, available for all who can read, that your rights stop where mine begin. Its simple.

reply to post by stuncrazy

but the individual is not and can never be more important than the whole except in the ego. where else in nature do you find that?

Actually, everywhere.

A lion hunting gazelles on the African plain is not concerned for the whole; it is concerned about its own belly. It will take that gazelle down without so much as a "thank you". A bird looking to feed its young is not concerned about the good that worm might do for the planet; it is concerned about getting that piece of food back to the nest.

All through nature, the individual fights for the individual. The balance is that this very instinct works to balance itself. The gazelle will try to run away. The worm will find cover.

So the answer to your earlier question is yes, capitalism puts the individual above the whole. But it also places the well-being of that individual at the mercy of the whole. Balance... just the way nature intended.

The reply concerning getting back to the land was a good one, but I should caution you as someone who lives that simple life, tucked safely inside a forest: make sure you understand nature before you go back to it. Nature cares not for the individual; that's the individual's job.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by stuncrazy
reply to post by peck420

 

so. if the choices you make directly/indirectly cause harm physically/emotionally/psychologically to another human being should you be allowed to make those choices? you say yes, but why? because you are your own person? if that is your answer then why can't i murder someone i don't agree with? why don't we just take away all laws? because i mean i should have the freedom to make any decision i damn well please right? why should i get to live the good life when someone else suffers?

You do have the right to make any decision you please. There will be consequences for any choice you choose, but you do have the right to make that decision.

what makes you or me that damn important? if you only answer one question answer the last one.

edit on 2-11-2011 by stuncrazy because: (no reason given)

What makes me that important (you can asnwer for yourself, I wont)? I do. Plain and simple.

I value my life above those around me, the only exceptions being my children, my wife, my family, my friends...in that order.

Will I help others if I can, without doing harm to my own goals? Yes.

Will I help others before I help myself or those previously specified? No.

I am from nature, I follow the law of nature. I will fight to survive, I will do what is neccessary to be at the top of my pack.

What you fail to realise is that capitalism has protected you from people like me. It has given you the oppurtunity to survive because I am not forced to kill to succeed.

You may find this disgusting, but at least I am honest enough to admit it, unlike the vast majority of the people around you.

Originally posted by ShadeWolf
reply to post by dontreally

 

Not a single one of the countries you mentioned there was truly communist. In fact, there's never been a properly communist nation. Each and every one that claims to be communist is really practicing a socialist (barely) dictatorship. In a Marxist communist system, there is no government.

Spare me the communist dogma.

Its quite amazing that time and time again, whenever communism is put into practice, "its never done properly"......Try thinking about why that is....Perhaps, an elite oligarchy that sits at the top?? Maybe this is the problem, and not the social and economic system selected???

Both Capitalism and Communism could produce a good world....it all depends on the individuals who makeup that society; ie; their elite.

Thus, the most stable society, both governmentally speaking, is a representative government in which power is decentralized. Economically, Capitalism is a stable system, although inevitably man is destined when the time comes - and hence why communism has yet to work - to settle with a type of socialist society.

But a socialist society minus God is an idol - the idol of gold of Nebuchadnezzar, or the tower of Babel, if you will. Both are destined to be destroyed bcause of their corrupt and fickle foundation.

reply to post by GringoViejo


there is such a disconnect with people. i'm not even lying when i say i don't understand the individualistic mentality. i can't even begin to comprehend why anyone would feel that it is ok that a single individual catapult to excessive financial success through selfish means and at the expense of another fellow human being.

i don't understand the hoarding of resources. like this is YOUR planet. this is OUR planet and should be shared equally. pride and vain glory. the deadliest sins indeed. i weep for the world and it's blind adoration of it's cold heartless monetary god.

and now i'll answer your questions sir. although i can already tell you that your main motivation is self.

Well if you're going to become Amish, you should be farming and you shouldn't be using computers. If you're going to label technological advancements as evil, or useless, stop using them.

this is a lack of knowledge as to why the amish are the way they are, in a sense you are right, but ultimately what they believe is evil is as i said earlier, pride and vain glory. they dress simply so that no single individual will put itself above the social structure itself. in fact many social structures/religions/philosophical belief's agree that pride and vain glory are the ultimate evil and downfall of man.

pride  noun, verb, prid·ed, prid·ing.
noun
1. a high or inordinate opinion of one's own dignity, importance, merit, or superiority, whether as cherished in the mind or as displayed in bearing, conduct, etc.
2. the state or feeling of being proud.
3. a becoming or dignified sense of what is due to oneself or one's position or character; self-respect; self-esteem.
4. pleasure or satisfaction taken in something done by or belonging to oneself or believed to reflect credit upon oneself: civic pride.
5. something that causes a person or persons to be proud: His art collection was the pride of the family.

vain·glo·ry   [veyn-glawr-ee, -glohr-ee, veyn-glawr-ee, -glohr-ee]
noun
1. excessive elation or pride over one's own achievements, abilities, etc.; boastful vanity.
2. empty pomp or show.

Which is why I ask how you think that the OWS crowd is wise enough to give genesis to a new, better system when it doesn't have the wisdom to recognize the source of the problems they are concerned about, or to come up with even a basic overall plan?

idk i think if we were to continue to have capitalism. we need to put a ceiling on the acceptable revenue one person can make. for the precise reason of your rights end exactly where mine begin. (i.e. you don't have the right to live in luxury at the expense of me living in poverty.) there shouldn't be classes as we are all created equal. i think we need an education system that from the very beginning is made to cultivate each individuals gifts and talents. this can be easily achieved. there are the artists, actors, musicians, analyzers, medics, psychologists, organizers, inventors.... etc... there are a couple more i can't think of right now, but most people fall into these categories and could benefit from academic regiments designed specifically for their special gifts and talents. the system should put the highest emphasis on family, for once the family begins to fall apart the nation and people itself will not be far behind. (don't believe me research it) i mean america was a family oriented country till about the late 50's. modesty should be strictly enforced, because loose morals is also a determinate factor on the success and failure of nations that were not conquered.

empires fall from within

direct democracy gives the best bet.

throw prison's out the window. if a person commits a crime we send said person to towns in which crime levels are at their lowest. peer pressure teaches them not to be criminals. maybe send them to schools to improve their work knowledge surround them by strong positive people that will help them change their outlook on life....

there's more i'll add on in a bit.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


See, it's even that overt now, and supporters are still trying to convince us it's not about destroying Capitalism.

reply to post by dontreally


Not only does this show you don't understand economics 101, You don't understand free enterprise. Who's your Marxist professor?

Oh yah, and send all the criminals to the best behaved towns? Brilliant, nothing like ruining what's left of decent society.

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus


The irony is, im a Polysci student at the University of Toronto. I spend quite alot of time immersed in political literature - so much so that it tires me to talk about it with ignoramuses.

I have no marxist proffesor. Im not a Marxist. Im just saying, practically speaking, the era of "free enterprise" and capitalism, will come to an end. Compeitition breeds growth, as someone else in this thread already pointed out. There will be a point in which man transcends this lower compeitition, and with that transcendance will also come a transition in our poitical system to something more along socialist lines. But not marxist. I dont need to refer to Marx to make sense of my political thinking.

I infact hate everything about Karl Marx.

edit: the term 'socialist' has very negative undertones. What I mean to say is, mankind will eventually transcend this lower order thinking of free enterprise capitalism. A time will come when man will cloth himself with a different system which is similar in conception, but different in important respects, from historical marxist doctrines. But I in no way support Socialism, Communism, or Marxism, as the post you quoted made perfectly clear. Im just speaking in an ultimate sense, in a far off future. In the present, Capitalism, Republicanism, Democracy, are the forms of economic and social order that i prefer.

reply to post by stuncrazy

there shouldn't be classes as we are all created equal.

Therein lies the key word: created.

We only have classes because people want to have classes. There are people I want to associate with and others I would prefer to avoid. I'm sure you feel the same way. So the ones I want to associate with (assuming they want to associate with me) form a class of sorts.

There are no restrictive financial classes among capitalism. By its very nature those under it have the ability to succeed or fail in their own hands (at least moreso than in any other system I know of). Those who work smart, work hard, leap onto opportunity will succeed; those who laze around, always taking the easy way out, who ignore opportunities when they come, will fail. Thus, the class one is in financially depends in large part on the individual themselves. Created equal does not mean always equal regardless of individual actions.

direct democracy gives the best bet.

Direct democracy is mob rule. Direct democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding on what to have for dinner.

A representative republic is lawful order. A representative republic is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner, with none being able to vote "lamb" or "wolf".

And as for sending criminals to towns with low crime rates? No! No! A thousand times no! All you will do is increase the crime rates for those towns. The most violent criminals do not care about peer pressure; they only care about themselves and the lives of everyone around them are irrelevant. While I as well care primarily for me and mine, I have the decency to care about others when I see them hurting, as do most people. If you want to improve the lives of those who have less, especially if you want to do so by charitable means (which it sounds like you do), then make life easier for all. A man who will give generously in good times may not be able to give in bad times.

And the easiest way to make life easier for all is to let them do what the do best. No one but them can make that decision. Not a government, not a people, not all the science in the world.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by TheRedneck
There are no restrictive financial classes among capitalism. By its very nature those under it have the ability to succeed or fail in their own hands (at least moreso than in any other system I know of). Those who work smart, work hard, leap onto opportunity will succeed; those who laze around, always taking the easy way out, who ignore opportunities when they come, will fail. Thus, the class one is in financially depends in large part on the individual themselves. Created equal does not mean always equal regardless of individual actions.

that's another thing i left out. no government hand outs. you want it you earn it. no easy way out. basic necessities such as food, shelter and water provided. other than that your on your own.

Direct democracy is mob rule. Direct democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding on what to have for dinner.

A representative republic is lawful order. A representative republic is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner, with none being able to vote "lamb" or "wolf".

then when it comes to a government voting system idk, all i know is this one is broken. you got a better idea i'm all ears.

And as for sending criminals to towns with low crime rates? No! No! A thousand times no! All you will do is increase the crime rates for those towns. The most violent criminals do not care about peer pressure; they only care about themselves and the lives of everyone around them are irrelevant. While I as well care primarily for me and mine, I have the decency to care about others when I see them hurting, as do most people. If you want to improve the lives of those who have less, especially if you want to do so by charitable means (which it sounds like you do), then make life easier for all. A man who will give generously in good times may not be able to give in bad times.

i call BS on this one the criminal mindset comes from past pain, personal loss, broken homes... etc. for example Gang members usually come from family where a father was not present.

and i didn't say move them in groups. spread individuals around. That would let the community know who needs help, and who doesn't. criminals are not evil people they are simply wounded people.

some people are criminals for sole purpose of survival, and the ignorance (as in nobody taught them) that there was a better way of doing things. society as a whole is more at fault for the criminal then the criminal himself.

it's like getting mad dyslexic person for not being able to read fast.

And the easiest way to make life easier for all is to let them do what the do best. No one but them can make that decision. Not a government, not a people, not all the science in the world.

Redneck

i beg to differ if a job can give you a psychoanalysis test that can tell the company if you are going to steal from them based off of multiple questions asking the same thing in many different ways as to judge your character, then you can examine a child who is more innocent and less likely to lie about fundamentals as to what grabs their attention and what they are passionate about. people fall into categories. we are not nearly as different as most people think. take a jungs personality test i'm pretty sure they can narrow you down to one of like 16 categories.

Well OWS Oakland has taken the Port of Oakland. They have shut it down and the police and other city officials are saying it will not open again until the OWS crowd lets it.

Live aerial shot from ABC news.
abclocal.go.com...

Heres ABC news twitter that is talking about the difrent events today.
twitter.com...#!/abc7newsbayarea

Originally posted by stuncrazy
it's like getting mad dyslexic person for not being able to read fast.

Bad analogy. Dyslexia is either heriditary or evolutionary (or both). Criminality is a free-will action. Mr. Pedophile Rapist does not rape children because of a genetic predisposition, he does so because he enjoys raping children. Futhermore, Mr. Pedophile Rapist should not be moved to a low crime town/village without any type of incarceration or rehabilitation in hopes that the townsfolk will someone use peer presure to reform him from his child-raping ways.

On topic, I am still waiting to see what Occupy Oakland's prefered governmental system is once they have achieved the death of capitalism.

Originally posted by Fitch303

Originally posted by purplemer
reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

 

Capitalism is killing our planet and we do need something different what that is i dont know...

Yeah because Communist China isn't the worlds worst polluter out there.

No it is not. Per head of population the USA is. China is a massive polluter but it also has a massive percentage of the worlds population...

Originally posted by purplemer
No it is not. Per head of population the USA is. China is a massive polluter but it also has a massive percentage of the worlds population...

All depends how you look at it:

China overtook the United States as the world largest producer of greenhouse gases in 2007, but has defended its emissions levels by arguing that its carbon footprint was reasonable for a developing country when calculated on a per person basis. source

Yes, they are smaller on a per capita, but they are the largest by total output.

Originally posted by mr10k

Originally posted by hudsonhawk69

Originally posted by mr10k
Capitalism isn't a bad thing. It helps a country grow. That is what we need right now. America needs to grow. The biggest 'Country' in the entire world is Bankopia with it's capital, Bankberg. Driven by the greed of huge corporate business owners. Yes, Capitalism is what caused those big corporate monopolies, but Capitalism is also what fueled the Industrial Age which helped America prosper and become the big world power it is today, minus the greed and corruption.

Capitolism makes the rich richer and the poor poorer. That's what it's designed to do.
Russias' sucess with their space program during the cold was under a communist government. Chinas current economic sucess and technoligical sucess is also under a communist government.
Large portions of americans technology has been developed by foreign scientists. Let's stop pretending that capitolists america is the saviour of the world.
Capitolism will bring about global economic collapse.

That is the most ignorant thing I have ever heard

Agree("ignorant"): for the 60 years after worldwar II the "evil" "capitalism" enabled whole generations of families to prosper.
OWS People seem to forget they are standing on the shoulders of decades of hardworking American families and pissing(dribbling)...
The Govt has been bought and is unresponsive.; no argument.

"capitalism is not the problem; unhinged floating fiat currency; leveraged banking and an uinleashed investment sector are the issues.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Bad analogy. Dyslexia is either heriditary or evolutionary (or both). Criminality is a free-will action. Mr. Pedophile Rapist does not rape children because of a genetic predisposition, he does so because he enjoys raping children. Futhermore, Mr. Pedophile Rapist should not be moved to a low crime town/village without any type of incarceration or rehabilitation in hopes that the townsfolk will someone use peer presure to reform him from his child-raping ways.

On topic, I am still waiting to see what Occupy Oakland's prefered governmental system is once they have achieved the death of capitalism.

hate and anger are learned emotions. i bet if you psychologically break down these (although i admit horribly sick) people. you will find that they were probably bullied possibly raped as a child. that the pain the pass onto others is the pain that they once felt, which is why they can act with such insensitivity to another human being. in part it is not their fault as they did not choose to themselves be bullied or raped. maybe that is not the case maybe the case is that simply nobody taught them to be civilized human beings. either way the fact that they became such sick and twisted human beings could have been prevented by someone caring for, protecting them, or guiding them.

once again society itself is more to blame for the criminals the the criminals themselves. some people were never given the tools to be good productive citizens of society, and that usually stems from a people of loose morals. (i.e. sex everywhere you look, war profiteering being valued over humanity)

and i believe the next system to be put in place is going to have checks and balances that holds humanity above the individual.

He dude, to ensure you aren't a hypocrite go and sell all you have and give the money away and then come back with a post like this telling us how you actually put actions to your words..... unless your already unemployed and have nothing becuase of personal failures.

This is not harsh, I'm just sick of hypocrites venting rubbish like this who own stuff that others don't have in your own country while you berate those that have more than you. It's called jeolousy and it's a sickness that cripples.

Please report back.