Occupy Oakland: Death to Capitalism

reply to post by PrimalRed


MATERIALISM. keyword there buddy. most of the stuff we do, we do because we always want more and more and more and more. take away "incentives" and people will stop creating crap we don't need.

Originally posted by AzureSky

Originally posted by beezzer
Lets say (for the sake of argument) OWS kills capitalism.
*die die die*

What is OWS going to replace it with?

Something new, something not thought of, and not socialism and communism, which are words people keep running to when they encounter anything they do not like.

It's kind of the point, discuss, and make a system that works for the betterment of society instead of, as i said, the top of the pyramid.

So you want to get rid of capitalism?

If you haven't the wisdom to at least try and come up with a viable alternative before hand, as any successful protest would, or identify the true problem, what makes you think you have the wisdom to have a say in how the new "system" is operated?

How are we supposed to trust that you comprehend the consequences of your actions?

Originally posted by AzureSky


It's kind of the point, discuss, and make a system that works for the betterment of society instead of, as i said, the top of the pyramid.

And you dont believe any "other"system,isnt going to have a hierarchy,a "top" to the pyramid?

Yeah.......


OWS is in denial. EVERYONE WANTS something. Thats the problem they cant understand. Some crave power,some crave material possessions,some crave anarchy,some crave redistribution,some crave peace,some crave out right violence. HUMANS are a plague onto themselves. Tell me how you are going to please EVERYONE'S WANTS collectively ? Im talking the world. Collective voting around a circle ? Yeah................

reply to post by GringoViejo


who says capitalism is a step forward? what makes you think that you are actually happier with all the "pretty things" that capitalism sells you? what makes you think all the "great inventions" are needed for a happy life? how do you know that you wouldn't be happier spending quality time with your family toiling the land and feeding yourself and your family? what does capitalism provide other than food for the ego? what does capitalism bring other than a division in marriage? what good does materialism do for the self? please answer these questions. whenever you gain one materialistic good all you begin to do is say well now that i got this if i got that then i'd be truly happy. it leaves no room for satisfaction of the soul. it keeps you chasing after things that once you obtain them you just chase something else. it is a chasing after ones own tail. once you catch it you don't even know what to do with it.

reply to post by ShadeWolf

Let's assume for the moment that you're right and capitalism "doesn't work". Would you care to enlighten me as to what you think does "work"?

The fact is that what we have been experiencing for the past several decades is not capitalism, nor is it the balanced mix of controlled capitalism that the USA had during the Industrial Revolution (I don't hear many complaints about capitalism during that time period). Let me explain capitalism to you:

Every person does something to benefit society, and that benefit is rewarded through capital - money - that allows them to have things on a level commensurate with their contribution. If your contribution is wanted by a lot of people, then you receive a large reward. If your contribution is not in high demand by society, you receive a small reward (or perhaps no reward at all). In either case, society determines whether or not the contribution is worthy of a reward and to what extent.

In our present system, insurance companies receive a reward regardless of society's view of their service; automobile insurance is required by law. In our present system, banks receive a reward regardless of society's view of their service; it is impossible for most to buy a home or car or open a business without bank assistance, ironically because the banks have drained the system of ready cash. In our present system, reward goes not just to the one making the contribution, but to the government through high taxation and then to those who the government wishes it to go to.

Under capitalism, a free market establishes the amount of reward, based on what the people are willing to spend on the product or service, which is in turn based on how much money the people have to spend. In our present system, minimum wages and entitlements mean the vast majority have money and thus are more willing to spend money on lesser contributions.

What we have is a perversion of capitalism, a mixture of capitalism, corporatism, and socialism.

We have a taxation rate that is enormous, yet we also have people complaining their taxes are too low. We have high minimum wage rates, and few jobs because of them. We have governmental regulation and extortion into every aspect of business, and see companies moving overseas where they can actually operate. We have a consumer base who loves to bash companies while simultaneously screaming about how necessary they are.

People complain they have no jobs, yet they demand heavy burdens on employers and high pay rates, while busily buying foreign goods (lowering the number of American jobs) because they can save a few bucks.

We had anti-trust laws to prevent the one admitted flaw in the capitalist system. They are no longer enforced, allowing the bad aspects of capitalism to flourish while the benefits are squashed under regulation and taxation. The government even gives our taxes to these monopolies when they make bad decisions!

Yeah, we're all messed up. And that's not the worst of it!

Now we have OWS demanding change... yes! We need change! But the change they are demanding is impossible to implement and even harder to maintain. It is all based on an unlimited money supply. They want $20 an hour whether employed or not. They want the janitor to make the same as the CEO. They want the banks to give them money because they want it.

That is not capitalism. That is stoopid.

So how about we as Americans stop the "stoopid", and let capitalism actually work before denouncing capitalism outright? That would be a better solution in my eyes. After all, it worked fine for 200 years.

TheRedneck

Yeah Death to capitalism and replace it with what? Atlas Shrugged? Nationalization? Communism? Socialism?

or more stupidism?

Meh

reply to post by TheRedneck


farming and self-sufficiency. that works. working your ass off to provide food and a home for your family. a simple life is a far more satisfying life. i'm starting to think i just wanna become Amish.

reply to post by neo96


"
Occupy Wall Street is like Congress,they keep telling us that they are hard working,but nothing is getting done.............."





That sums it up......

Originally posted by stuncrazy
reply to post by PrimalRed

 

MATERIALISM. keyword there buddy. most of the stuff we do, we do because we always want more and more and more and more. take away "incentives" and people will stop creating crap we don't need.

Take away the crap we don't need? So we all end up slaving away for basic needs like food,water and shelter? Same logic applies. Why would people work hard if they were compensated the same as those who did not work? The problem is not materialism the problem is that people have started to see things as having money does not entitle you to it but wanting things does.

reply to post by PrimalRed


that's called survival instincts. that's primal. you don't need incentive to find food water and shelter. don't believe me go to a remote location where there is no money and show me your number one concern won't be to eat drink and protect yourself.

and yes materialism is the problem. you need the next big thing. you need the nice new ride. you need the nice big house. you need the big flat screen tv. you need the best smart phone. this is what drives capitalism. materialism drives capitalism. it is all about ego. it's all about me me me me. i gotta be the biggest baddest coolest M'Fer on the block, but at what cost? is it ok that you get to eat 72 oz steaks everyday if that means the person next to you has to die of starvation?

Originally posted by stuncrazy
reply to post by GringoViejo

 

who says capitalism is a step forward?

History.

what makes you think that you are actually happier with all the "pretty things" that capitalism sells you?

Irrelevant. My happiness is not based on how many things I have, but the security that no one has the right to tell me what to do with them, myself, or my family.

what makes you think all the "great inventions" are needed for a happy life?

History. we're not talking about iPods, and espresso machines. CERN comes to mind, Radar technology, advancements in medicine, telephones, water purification, the internet, to name a few.

how do you know that you wouldn't be happier spending quality time with your family toiling the land and feeding yourself and your family?

Irrelevant. How do you know you wouldn't be happier if you were king of england?

what does capitalism provide other than food for the ego?

A chance for the average person to go into business and hopefully become profitable. I would rather not smoke Victory brand cigarettes.

what does capitalism bring other than a division in marriage?

I thought it didn't offer anything but food for the ego?

what good does materialism do for the self?

So what you're saying is that everyone who supports capitalism is a materialistic, shallow person? Grow up.

please answer these questions.

Please take some history courses.

whenever you gain one materialistic good all you begin to do is say well now that i got this if i got that then i'd be truly happy. it leaves no room for satisfaction of the soul. it keeps you chasing after things that once you obtain them you just chase something else. it is a chasing after ones own tail. once you catch it you don't even know what to do with it.

I don't know about you, but my life isn't dictated by the things I can and can not buy. I'm sorry if that's how you view life. I would suggest some sort of counseling, therapy, or just a support group.

Originally posted by stuncrazy
reply to post by TheRedneck

 

farming and self-sufficiency. that works. working your ass off to provide food and a home for your family. a simple life is a far more satisfying life. i'm starting to think i just wanna become Amish.

then get off the computer and start farming. The adults are talking.

I don't know about you, but my life isn't dictated by the things I can and can not buy. I'm sorry if that's how you view life. I would suggest some sort of counseling, therapy, or just a support group.

really then what does capitalism bring you other than things you can and cannot buy?

why are you so important that you even deserve to go into business for yourself. i can think of 6,999,999,999 reasons that you aren't any more important than a single grain of sand is in a beach. what compels you to believe that you deserve to profit yourself at the expense of another human being? you/me/nor anyone else is more important than the whole.

capitalism puts the individual above the whole. you can argue that all you want. the fact that you need "incentive" to follow your dreams is beyond me. idk about you, but i like to do things that i'm passionate about. i'm not a publisher for a newspaper because i have to be. i'm a publisher for a newspaper because i love researching current events and informing the public. that is my passion. it is what i enjoy doing. i'm one of the lucky ones though, cause i actually get to do what i enjoy. work isn't work for me, but i feel sorry for the ones that dread waking up every day to go to some job and bust their ass to make someone else richer. THAT is what capitalism brings you. how many people do you know that are really and truly living the life of their dreams? most people i know live the life they have to. living a life of quiet desperation. just trying to make it by. screw you and your mentality that the only reason the system doesn't work for some is because they don't try hard enough.

Originally posted by stuncrazy
really then what does capitalism bring you other than things you can and cannot buy?

why are you so important that you even deserve to go into business for yourself. i can think of 6,999,999,999 reasons that you aren't any more important than a single grain of sand is in a beach. what compels you to believe that you deserve to profit yourself at the expense of another human being? you/me/nor anyone else is more important than the whole.

capitalism puts the individual above the whole. you can argue that all you want. the fact that you need "incentive" to follow your dreams is beyond me. idk about you, but i like to do things that i'm passionate about. i'm not a publisher for a newspaper because i have to be. i'm a publisher for a newspaper because i love researching current events and informing the public. that is my passion. it is what i enjoy doing. i'm one of the lucky ones though, cause i actually get to do what i enjoy. work isn't work for me, but i feel sorry for the ones that dread waking up every day to go to some job and bust their ass to make someone else richer. THAT is what capitalism brings you. how many people do you know that are really and truly living the life of their dreams? most people i know live the life they have to. living a life of quiet desperation. just trying to make it by. screw you and your mentality that the only reason the system doesn't work for some is because they don't try hard enough.

edit on 2-11-2011 by stuncrazy because: (no reason given)

Capitalism brings you choice.

No more, no less.

Can't say the same for the other systems.

then get off the computer and start farming. The adults are talking.

what makes you think farming isn't a hobby i plan on picking up? and you spelled brainwashed wrong.

seems as though being a free thinker is more and more frowned upon as the days go on.

reply to post by peck420


so. if the choices you make directly/indirectly cause harm physically/emotionally/psychologically to another human being should you be allowed to make those choices? you say yes, but why? because you are your own person? if that is your answer then why can't i murder someone i don't agree with? why don't we just take away all laws? because i mean i should have the freedom to make any decision i damn well please right? why should i get to live the good life when someone else suffers? what makes you or me that damn important? if you only answer one question answer the last one.

Originally posted by stuncrazy

I don't know about you, but my life isn't dictated by the things I can and can not buy. I'm sorry if that's how you view life. I would suggest some sort of counseling, therapy, or just a support group.

really then what does capitalism bring you other than things you can and cannot buy?

why are you so important that you even deserve to go into business for yourself. i can think of 6,999,999,999 reasons that you aren't any more important than a single grain of sand is in a beach. what compels you to believe that you deserve to profit yourself at the expense of another human being? you/me/nor anyone else is more important than the whole.

capitalism puts the individual above the whole. you can argue that all you want. the fact that you need "incentive" to follow your dreams is beyond me. idk about you, but i like to do things that i'm passionate about. i'm not a publisher for a newspaper because i have to be. i'm a publisher for a newspaper because i love researching current events and informing the public. that is my passion. it is what i enjoy doing. i'm one of the lucky ones though, cause i actually get to do what i enjoy. work isn't work for me, but i feel sorry for the ones that dread waking up every day to go to some job and bust their ass to make someone else richer. THAT is what capitalism brings you. how many people do you know that are really and truly living the life of their dreams? most people i know live the life they have to. living a life of quiet desperation. just trying to make it by. screw you and your mentality that the only reason the system doesn't work for some is because they don't try hard enough.

edit on 2-11-2011 by stuncrazy because: (no reason given)

Child please. You had, or are in the middle of, your free education. It is not my responsibility to educate you about things you refuse to look at and objectively analyze.

And my rights are more important than your opinions, your rights are more important than my opinions. Get it? The individual is above the whole. That's how a republic is supposed to work.

Another issue you need to stop spouting off about is the idea that somehow capitalism makes me do anything at all. My life isn't based off how much I can buy, or spend. I don't live beyond my means, so far its worked for me. Capitalism gives me the choice to buy products if I wish, and also allows me to choose which is the best. Like I said before, i'd rather not smoke Victory brand cigarettes, eat Victory brand bread etc.

reply to post by GringoViejo


but the individual is not and can never be more important than the whole except in the ego. where else in nature do you find that? nature is a carefully balanced system hell even you body is a carefully balanced system. every part has a job to do yet no part is more important than any other. you might get away with saying the brain and the heart are more important, but if all you had was a heart. the heart it self would be worthless. same with the brain. it is the whole that matters not the individual pieces. the individual pieces work together to make the WHOLE work.

so no individual piece should be allowed to make a decision that damages the whole. what if you you wanted to go one way and then all of a sudden your foot was like no man i'm smarter than you i'm gonna go this way. wouldn't work out that well would it?

Originally posted by stuncrazy

what makes you think farming isn't a hobby i plan on picking up?

Well if you're going to become Amish, you should be farming and you shouldn't be using computers. If you're going to label technological advancements as evil, or useless, stop using them.

you should and you spelled brainwashed wrong.

It doesn't surprise me that you're seeing what you want to see.

seems as though being a free thinker is more and more frowned upon as the days go on.

I concur, what is your problem with free thinking?

Originally posted by stuncrazy
reply to post by GringoViejo

 

but the individual is not and can never be more important than the whole except in the ego. where else in nature do you find that? nature is a carefully balanced system hell even you body is a carefully balanced system. every part has a job to do yet no part is more important than any other. you might get away with saying the brain and the heart are more important, but if all you had was a heart. the heart it self would be worthless. same with the brain. it is the whole that matters not the individual pieces. the individual pieces work together to make the WHOLE work.

I'm not talking about nature or ego, nor do I care to. I'm talking about individual rights in a free market system. A system, which you would rather flat out abolish than fix. Which is why I ask how you think that the OWS crowd is wise enough to give genesis to a new, better system when it doesn't have the wisdom to recognize the source of the problems they are concerned about, or to come up with even a basic overall plan? None of that has anything to do with nature or ego.

I've said before, whether you like it or even comprehend it or not, people standing up for the preservation of rights are fighting for you just as much as themselves. If your decisions can be made for you then so can mine, and that's why I, and people like me, won't sit back and allow you to make these types of decisions unless you understand the consequences of your actions.