Job! Jobs! Jobs! Cheering on our own slavery. Employment bubble popped. Fight against work.

Originally posted by nightbringr
Well I really don't want death threats against me or my family, so I guess I'll just carry on with my happy life!

It appears to me you've been both scared and lured into the system. You are a good citizen.

reply to post by doctornamtab


I agree with you to a certain extent. There are many worthless jobs.... there are many jobs that give us what we need to live and what we need to have our current way of life.

For example. If i did not do my job, the internet would stop working when problems would occur. celltowers would go down not allowing you to text your buddies or visit ATS on your cell phone. You wouldn't even be able to call to complain about it since you would not be able to call out of your area.

Jobs are not obsolete. They need to be reworked. I would much rather do my job than have to work at getting my own power food water and shelter. i would much rather do my job and have others take care of the rest in exchange for my labor.

by reworked I mean work days should not be as long. In all the jobs i have held i roughly do about 3-4hrs of actual work. if they reworked my job to 3-4hrs .. eventually i would end up doing on 1-2hrs worth of work.. i don't know i have not had a job with short hours that pays me current fulltime 8hr day wages.

one day i was sitting on hold at work and looked around and realized how ugly my work enviroment is. There are noisy servers and cables every where and it smells funky. I said to myself that this place sucks and questioned why i was there. then i said just to make some rich prick rich... while he is out doing stuff he likes and enjoying life. I don't want to do this job, i like my job but i don't want to do it EVERYDAY.. only to go home drained with only time to do chores then to get ready to do it again. I want to work on things i want to do.

except our system is setup to not allow you to do that. The introduction of property taxes just proved to me at an early age that we are slaves. If I could work and stop working AND NOT lose my home(AFER IT BIENG PAYED OFF) i would do it. I would work for a while then take time off. BUT NOOO the powers that be made sure that we did not have that luxury

If i didn't want to have a family i would not work and be a bum

Originally posted by gentledissident
It appears to me you've been both scared and lured into the system. You are a good citizen.

Scared? Hardly. Scared was living through the cold war and the 1980s. By comparrison i live a life of joy and happiness now.

Lured into the system? Perhaps. Ive used the system to make a great life for myself and my family. I make decent money and suppliment what i make by investing in stocks and bonds. So instead of raging against all that is offered us, i take advantage of it.

Maybe you think im lieing when i say i have a great life, but i can assure you, im not. Ive never been happier, and i embrace all that the Western world offers. Of course i wish i could stop corporate favoritism and level the playing field somewhat, but alas, im not a politician. I am however politically active and am a member of a lobby group pushing for balanced budget legislation in Canada.

Since you are so against capitalism, might I ask what it is YOU would do if you could change things? Do you have any real suggestions, or do you just want to tear the system down with no idea of what to do once you have?

Originally posted by nightbringr
Lured into the system? Perhaps. Ive used the system to make a great life for myself and my family. I make decent money and suppliment what i make by investing in stocks and bonds. So instead of raging against all that is offered us, i take advantage of it.

Thankfully, there is at least one thinking person on this thread. Kudos.

Originally posted by nightbringr

Originally posted by gentledissident
It appears to me you've been both scared and lured into the system. You are a good citizen.

Scared? Hardly. Scared was living through the cold war and the 1980s. By comparrison i live a life of joy and happiness now.

Lured into the system? Perhaps. Ive used the system to make a great life for myself and my family. I make decent money and suppliment what i make by investing in stocks and bonds. So instead of raging against all that is offered us, i take advantage of it.

Maybe you think im lieing when i say i have a great life, but i can assure you, im not. Ive never been happier, and i embrace all that the Western world offers. Of course i wish i could stop corporate favoritism and level the playing field somewhat, but alas, im not a politician. I am however politically active and am a member of a lobby group pushing for balanced budget legislation in Canada.

Since you are so against capitalism, might I ask what it is YOU would do if you could change things? Do you have any real suggestions, or do you just want to tear the system down with no idea of what to do once you have?

I agree with you I have a good life. Unlike you I still acknowledge that I am a slave that lives in a pretty jail cell to my liking. YOu are in the same boat regardless of what you say. If i am wrong moan about your job and tell your company how you feel about it. You won't out of fear of losing your job as you would lose your way of life.. that is not a free man that is a slave.

Originally posted by yaluk
I agree with you I have a good life. Unlike you I still acknowledge that I am a slave that lives in a pretty jail cell to my liking. YOu are in the same boat regardless of what you say. If i am wrong moan about your job and tell your company how you feel about it. You won't out of fear of losing your job as you would lose your way of life.. that is not a free man that is a slave.

I dont want to complain about my job. I like it. Even if i did, they would probably sigh and tell me if i didnt like it, go elsewhere. I can understand that, i work for a good employer who value my work and treat me well. Hell, last time i did quit to pursue another option, they gave me a big raise that kept me on.

If i did lose my job, i would not lose my way of life. I will get another job elsewhere, even at reduced pay. I might have to make some minor cutbacks in my life, but i will go on. Im very financially responsible and i have a good savings to help me in times of difficulties.

That aside, im not sure what your getting at. Do you suggest there is another system that will allow us to vent about our jobs without fear? If so, to what ends would this improve your life? Are you suggesting socialism or communism would be better and allow us more freedom? Would you like to move back to a bartering system? Please tell me how you would solve this problem and allow you to be "free"?

reply to post by doctornamtab

People wonder where all of the productivity gains went since 1900. They ask, why do we even need to work 40 hours per week since productivity has went up several times. We should only have to work a few hours. The reason we still work at least 40 hours is because our expectations went up. Our cost of living went up along with it. We also spent the extra money on advancing our society. All of these things you think are needless are part of advancing our society beyond what we've known previously. If we all lived as we lived in 1900, it would be cheap, but this isn't 1900 and I'm glad it's not. We have to progress and that's what we're doing, thankfully.

And.. the bubble didn't happen because jobs themselves are fake, it happened because we were building too many homes. You simply misplaced the blame. I can't blame you; life is complicated. So a whole bunch of people failed at once because of this bubble and we're feeling the tsunami.

We'll recover and there'll be more bubbles, but at least we will progress. Humans would not be happy just surviving, you know. That's another thing. Humans want to get ahead and make dreams real. They're not happy just sitting. We live forever through our descendants.

Guys, we don't need you to explain and describe to us the current situation every time you post, because we already know what's going on. We want, at least I want, to discuss mankind's potential in the grand scope of things, not some loan politic of some bank or why someone would accept such a loan contract. How well you are doing in the current situation is also irrelevant to this discussion, because as I said earlier we can find at any given period of time in mankind's history some slave or subservient peasant who was "not doing so bad" or even "doing well". The fact that you find your situation "not so bad" is because you compare your situation to the situation of others, that's human behaviour. You don't even look at the potential as long as there is someone who is doing worse than you. You don't think, you just adapt like any animal out there in the wild.

We are not the end of human evolution, we are just intermediary and temporary beings.

But, I'll add something in support of the OP's thoughts.

80% of healthcare costs go to the last few weeks of life. Intensive care is very expensive and life saving surgeries are expensive as well. So paying health insurance for young people is not as expensive as it seems at first. But it would still cost a lot of money, though. It all depends on several factors: the health of our economy, our capacity for empathy, changing technology and productivity, and so on. When our nation decided to pay for our youth's high-school education, similar things were going on when we were trying to decide what to do. What can we afford? And what is the cost/benefit ratio in terms of the economy and our sense of well being?

I think we'll come to a point where machines and AI will reduce the value of current-day humans to zero. But the thing is, humans won't stay as they're today. Humans will advance: genetically, intellectually, emotionally, etc. It's the same deal. Humans won't be obsoleted because humans will change along with everything else. Change is the nature of reality; nothing stays inert.

reply to post by macman

The difference is I expect everyone to take responsibility for their own actions, you don't.
You want to blame the system, or blame the mouse trap for killing the mouse, when it was the choice of the mouse to take the cheese.
Everything has consequences, you seem to forget this basic truth.

That's a horrible analogy, the trap, nor the mouse is at fault. You are forgetting the third party, ie the human who placed the trap, and who knew that the mouse could not resist a free meal. I agree that there are consequences to actions, but your analogy is a perfect description of predetory lending. The mouse is the home buyer, and the trap with cheese(money lender with something seen as needed), and of course the human who set the trap...some high up in the bank system. These loans were made to people who they knew couldn't pay, they are actively destroying the weaker class'. If you can't kill people with hired thugs, government payoffs, or any other brutality, financial destruction works just as well and you can blame the people who took the bait.

I've made a lot of bad choices in my life. I could sure use help from others. But then again, the situation I'm in is my own fault. I don't want to rob other people of their freedom to give myself a boost. I'm a thief, when it comes down to it, but I'm a thief that is bad because of what he does not do, not what he has done. Inactivity can sometimes be just as bad as anything you do. But anyway, at least I understand that freedom to be what you want to be also means the freedom to fail, not just to succeed. Freedom is not free because good choices don't come automatically.

Not only that, but there're many, many worse off people out there. There're at least a billion people that do not have access to electricity. Many people do not know good health. Even my life as it's, a mess by all accounts, is better than at least 1 billion others. Maybe 2 billion.

But having access to electricity and shelter and food and even a computer is not happiness. Humans are happy when they accomplish things. Surviving isn't good enough. They have to feel needed. And that need, placed on them by someone else, has to coincide with their likes/dislikes so that they can fit into it comfortably. For example, an uneducated stupid man doesn't make a good nobel prize physicist. Neither does an atheist make a good baptist preacher. There're all sorts of needs in this world. Finding out what you're good at and can agree with and finding out what others need and finding out where those things meet is the challenge that life represents.

Construct a matrix like this:
......................[ I agree with it ],..... [ i'm good at it ]
Needed Activity 1.......[ ]..............................[ ]
Needed Activity 2.......[ ]..............................[ ]
Needed Activity 3.......[ ]..............................[ ]

And go from there. Sadly, sometimes we're not sure what the right answer is, though. We often shoot in the dark and hope it was the right choice. You just have to keep trying. Don't quit.

reply to post by macman


You only believe some people should be held responsible for their actions, while others shouldn't have to pay for their crimes.

People who made poor choices on their loans, because they bought the lies being sold by the loan sharks, are paying for their mistakes, while those who sold the con and reaped the reward are getting away with their crimes.

You are just one of the minions laughing at the misfortunate, hoping you don't get taken next time yourself, all too willing to help the crooks screw over their fellow human being.

Basically, it is market cannibalism. The con artist created nothing, and stole from everyone. In the short run it works, but usually it turns around to bite you.

reply to post by nightbringr


Natural selection would have taken out the con artists first.

Cultures that developed cooperation, democratic principles where people were treated fairly and law and order was established did far better than those societies where there was no justice. It is what separates the first world nations from the third world nations.

You support a corrupt system, foolishly thinking you have it made, as you surrender all the rights and freedoms that made the U.S. great in the first place.

You might be doing alright now, but if things keep going in their current direction, the odds are slim that you will continue to prosper.

If you have kids and care about their future, you might want to consider adopting a few virtues, and teaching them to your children, because lying and cheating, nor greed and hypocrisy, are not virtues, and those seem to be traits that you support.

reply to post by gosseyn


Well, we are seeing a good example of the slave mentality. It is alright to cheat people, as long as you can get by with it.

Most of those people who took those loans thought that they could meet all the harsh requirements, if they work hard and don't make any mistakes. Be good to the master, and maybe the master will be good to you, and maybe you will be a pet slave, maybe someday a master in your own rights. So what if you do bad things to decent people, as long as you get ahead.

It is the philosophy of failed societies, which rot from withing, stagnate. Then other more successful cultures that succeed because they provide opportunity for all, move in and take over, because their principles of cooperation and justice give them far more advantage.

This is the primary difference between third world nations and first world nations.

Originally posted by nightbringr
Scared? Hardly. Scared was living through the cold war and the 1980s. By comparrison i live a life of joy and happiness now.

That time in our history made the joke of "reality" so clear to me, I dropped out. Life was like a cartoon back then. I became, and have been since, an outcast.

Originally posted by nightbringr
Lured into the system? Perhaps. Ive used the system to make a great life for myself and my family. I make decent money and suppliment what i make by investing in stocks and bonds. So instead of raging against all that is offered us, i take advantage of it.

I'm too much of a purist. This may have come from me realizing there is no god at 3, and that everyone around me was living a lie. I've had a lot of time to think about this.

Originally posted by nightbringr Maybe you think im lieing when i say i have a great life, but i can assure you, im not. Ive never been happier, and i embrace all that the Western world offers.

I enjoy what the Eastern world offers. At least some of it is assembled in the US. My life is good. Since I know how to buy at DEEP discount, I have what I want. Since I buy so low, my stuff is also an investment. However, I hope I shall never have to part with the rarities I've collected. I'm pretty much full of stuff and am now saving for off grid life. I make good money for this area working for a well known corporation that you either hate or blindly throw money at. I don't feel comfortable giving the name, as I'd like to stay employed there for a while. If you were to put the company name into ATS search, you would come up with pages of results. Some say it's part of the Illuminati.

I would really like more time to make art and music. I would like for my brain to get the relief it needs for these activities. I would like to work less hours and do meaningful work to facilitate this. If I didn't have a family, I would chose to be a starving artist.

Originally posted by nightbringr
Since you are so against capitalism, might I ask what it is YOU would do if you could change things? Do you have any real suggestions, or do you just want to tear the system down with no idea of what to do once you have?

For purpose of discussion, let's imagine the government isn't corrupt to the core. The government should get involved in producing low cost necessities, and compete with private necessity providers. The coordination on that level would produce efficiency. Those who chose to work for the government will have discounted necessities in addition to a paycheck. The rest of the people will be able to attempt to separate the public from their money, as they do now. Consumer education will be taught in school. Children will learn about advertising deception and impulse buying.

I think that making the legal work week 20 hours would employ more people. A new livable min wage would be set. This would not only facilitate the oncoming of the mechanical age, this will regulate those employers who think, "I deserve more than my employees".

I would think a lot of frivolous companies, as seen on TV, would die off. However, the government will be there for the newly unemployed offering meaningful work and benefits.

Ultimately, it would be nice if there were regulated monopolies. They would be required to produce quality product and would be judged through public feedback rather than sales. Prices would be monitored by the government. The huge think tank of workers and buyers would insure quality.

Back to reality, there is very little chance of any of this happening. Greed and corruption power the corporations/government who prevent it. That two headed beast has control and will not give it up even by force. The only way to defeat it is to not participate. This is why those who leave the grid are harassed and murdered. They are the powerful enemies of the beast.

Originally posted by LordBaskettIV
reply to post by macman

 

The difference is I expect everyone to take responsibility for their own actions, you don't.
You want to blame the system, or blame the mouse trap for killing the mouse, when it was the choice of the mouse to take the cheese.
Everything has consequences, you seem to forget this basic truth.

That's a horrible analogy, the trap, nor the mouse is at fault. You are forgetting the third party, ie the human who placed the trap, and who knew that the mouse could not resist a free meal. I agree that there are consequences to actions, but your analogy is a perfect description of predetory lending. The mouse is the home buyer, and the trap with cheese(money lender with something seen as needed), and of course the human who set the trap...some high up in the bank system. These loans were made to people who they knew couldn't pay, they are actively destroying the weaker class'. If you can't kill people with hired thugs, government payoffs, or any other brutality, financial destruction works just as well and you can blame the people who took the bait.

Again, even though you are presented with a choice, it is still your choice.
The bank or human placing the trap did not force you to sign the loan or take the cheese.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by macman

 

You only believe some people should be held responsible for their actions, while others shouldn't have to pay for their crimes.

People who made poor choices on their loans, because they bought the lies being sold by the loan sharks, are paying for their mistakes, while those who sold the con and reaped the reward are getting away with their crimes.

You are just one of the minions laughing at the misfortunate, hoping you don't get taken next time yourself, all too willing to help the crooks screw over their fellow human being.

Basically, it is market cannibalism. The con artist created nothing, and stole from everyone. In the short run it works, but usually it turns around to bite you.

Who is laughing? Your knee jerk heart bleeding response is wrong.
I do not laugh nor snicker at those who signed the loans. But, I do not just cry for them, as ultimately they made the choice.

Yes, the banks did something horrific. I agree with that.,
But, just like any other product that a person chooses to purchase, if people did not purchase the loan, then the loan would not exist and the bank would not profit from it.

And what lies were sold?
The loans clearly state, adjustable rate mortgage, interest only mortgage, balloon interest after 5 years and non-fixed rate.
What is so difficult to understand. Any 4th grader could define these. If the signer of the loan doesn't understand them, then they really have no business signing documents and making large purchases.

Did they understand them as a whole? Yes, I believe they did.

Was these terms ignored? YES!!!
All with the idea that the market will increase, and they could sell or refinance to avoid such issues.

They took a gamble and lost. Stop crying.

Am I mad that the poor choices are affecting my house value? Yes.
Did I make good choices on my home? Yes. So I suppose, with the group think idea that I am the bad player or that I am lucky. Or that I need to carry the mistakes of the others.
No. They signed the loan, now pay the consequences.

I took the time to research loans, took the time to plan, took the time to be patient and not expect everything all at once on credit.

Originally posted by gentledissident
I'm too much of a purist. This may have come from me realizing there is no god at 3, and that everyone around me was living a lie. I've had a lot of time to think about this.

If you do not believe in a higher power, isnt that the single most important reason to live the best, happiest life you can? Its the only life you will have, and with no afterlife, enjoy it while you can!

Originally posted by gentledissident
I enjoy what the Eastern world offers. At least some of it is assembled in the US. My life is good. Since I know how to buy at DEEP discount, I have what I want. Since I buy so low, my stuff is also an investment. However, I hope I shall never have to part with the rarities I've collected. I'm pretty much full of stuff and am now saving for off grid life. I make good money for this area working for a well known corporation that you either hate or blindly throw money at. I don't feel comfortable giving the name, as I'd like to stay employed there for a while. If you were to put the company name into ATS search, you would come up with pages of results. Some say it's part of the Illuminati.

Im glad you are moving towards your goal of living off the grid. Many people here rage against western society and all that is wrong with it, but do nothing about it. I respect those who "do", not those who whine and cry and bemoan their lot in life, never once trying to improve things. Your working towards your goal, and i applaud that.

Originally posted by gentledissident
Consumer education will be taught in school. Children will learn about advertising deception and impulse buying.

Yes! I couldnt agree more. People need to learn financial responsibility. I have never understood how people max their credit cards, get a new card to pay off the old one, and then max a line of credit at the bank. All to buy items they dont need. It creates stress and worry, and if a job is lost or the economy tanks, they risk losing it all.

Originally posted by gentledissident
I think that making the legal work week 20 hours would employ more people. A new livable min wage would be set. This would not only facilitate the oncoming of the mechanical age, this will regulate those employers who think, "I deserve more than my employees".

And it will decimate small businesses. New struggling businesses cannot always afford to pay pizza delivery drivers $14 an hour. This i disagree with. Generally, an employer DOES deserve more. He is taking more risks, working harder (at least in the initial phase of opening and getting the business running), and is responsible for overseeing the entire operation, not a single job like most employees.

Originally posted by gentledissident
Ultimately, it would be nice if there were regulated monopolies. They would be required to produce quality product and would be judged through public feedback rather than sales. Prices would be monitored by the government. The huge think tank of workers and buyers would insure quality.

This is done right here in Canada. In my province, the Hydro power company is government owned a run, and we have some of the cheapest electrical rates in the world. Even better, it is not regulated by the government as you suggest, but by an independant regulatory board. They and the government have butted heads many times and it is obvious they are looking out for the people. I love the Public Utilities Board.

Originally posted by gentledissident
Back to reality, there is very little chance of any of this happening. Greed and corruption power the corporations/government who prevent it. That two headed beast has control and will not give it up even by force. The only way to defeat it is to not participate. This is why those who leave the grid are harassed and murdered. They are the powerful enemies of the beast.

Cant say i really buy into that. There are mountain and swamp people in the South East who have been living off the grid for generations. I think the important thing is to go somewhere where your lifestyle will not interfere with others. The Australian outback strikes me as a perfect example.

Im not a big believer in a new world order, Illuminati or the such. I see countries acting in a very self-serving manner. I do not believe China, Russia, USA, Iran, North Korea and Saudi Arabia are going to one day hold hands, sing kumbaya and join together in a one world government.

Originally posted by macman
Again, even though you are presented with a choice, it is still your choice.
The bank or human placing the trap did not force you to sign the loan or take the cheese.

Exactly. By placing all the blame on the loaner, you are absolving the loanee of all responsiblilty. Anyone anywhere who takes a loan and walks away from it you will blame on the loaner. In this world, the consumer can do no wrong, never responsible for anything they do or sign.

Do you not understand the concept of personal responsiblity? Do you never take any blame for your actions in your life? People like that refuse to ever accept they have done any wrong, always placing the blame on others.

Originally posted by nightbringr
If you do not believe in a higher power, isnt that the single most important reason to live the best, happiest life you can? Hopefully you are.

My reason for not buying the god concept is becasue it's vaporware. It has nothing to do with motivation. I would also think having an afterlife to look forward to would be demotivating.

Here's a nice video on motivation.