Job! Jobs! Jobs! Cheering on our own slavery. Employment bubble popped. Fight against work.

A lot of people are missing the big picture here. The question, for me at least, is not "how do we go back to a 100 years old standard of living?", because that question makes no sense. The question however is: how do we cooperate to better our lives? You have to ask yourself : for what purpose are people working everyday, who truly benefits from that work? You have to acknowledge one fact : the whole is greater than the sum of all its parts. You can call that synergy.

a cohesive group is more than the sum of its parts, synergy is the ability of a group to outperform even its best individual member

I am not against work, I am against the way it is used today, the purpose of it. Imagine100.000 people in a nation today working in food industry for corporation profit, and if those 100.000 were instead working and producing food for the benefit of that nation and its members, without having to satisfy the greed of a handful of people, the food they produce would become dirt cheap, even free considering the taxes we already pay. You have to understand that the reason this is not done that way is because of the ideology of capitalism, an ideology that is nothing else than modern slavery. Capitalism says that the work of people is worth near nothing compared to the capital. The reason this ideology is still running is because some indoctrinated workers are defending it, nothing more : slaves that defend their masters, slaves that do not recognize that they are slaves.

None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
- Goethe

Forget about capitalism, forget about communism, forget about all the -ism, forget about all those ideologies that do not take account for the reality of things, and start to think about intelligent cooperation. Start to look at the possibilities, start to look at the state of our science and technology today.

Another subject that people seem to fall for it is the question of human nature : what is it? Are human beings greedy by nature? Are we aggressive by nature? Or do we learn that on the way, from birth to death? What is the difference between baby hitler and baby gandhi ?

reply to post by gosseyn


I am in total agreement with your rationale. I see no conflict in allowing an entirely Capitalist society from everything past the basic needs of people. We need to figure out how to cooperate and drive down costs on the things that sustain our lives and produce better qualities of life for us all. If we can accomplish just this small goal of total community for our basic needs, we can get rid of millions of office employees to regulate who gets food stamps and who doesn't. How about food so cheap its practically given away. Yes, we can do it. They can grow food now in buildings hydroponically. There is no reason this cannot be accomplished. Ideologies are holding us back in many cases.

Originally posted by jaomba
I however will remain here, living very well all off the proceeds from working hard at a job! By the way my wife and three children do not work and live very well so basically five of us live off just my Job. Try doing that without the current system. Every member of the family will have to work from sun up to sun down.
Really it is total gibberish that you are advocating, but again go for it. Start by throwing out your computer it would not exist except for the specialist who worked to design and produce it.

Again, you totally miss the point of the thread. We wouldn't have to leave if it weren't for people like you.

Originally posted by gosseyn
A lot of people are missing the big picture here. The question, for me at least, is not "how do we go back to a 100 years old standard of living?", because that question makes no sense. The question however is: how do we cooperate to better our lives?

If anyone is skipping through the thread, make sure you read this excellent post.

reply to post by doctornamtab


This is why I love ATS -- the creativity of posts and thinking as expressed here. I absolutely agree with you and have often thought that we have enough for everyone, so why all the pain, dysfunction, poverty, and illness? I have recently read a book by Wendell Stevens about life on planet Iarga, and they have worked out a very efficient society wherein everyone works for perhaps half a day a week, doing what one is best suited to do and what one loves. All of their work is creative because it is always geared toward making life better for the whole. So everyone has much leisure and an abundance of time to learn and apply new ideas. It goes way beyond what we might describe as communism because private property simply does not exist. And everyone must contribute at least a little of their time every week toward the common good, and keeping the gears of society moving. But otherwise, their lives are devoted to art, recreation, travel, leisure, and family and community pursuits, etc. It's all so civilized that it makes me feel as though we are living in a very primitive society indeed.

All of us need to think constantly of how our society and culture could be different, how things could change, how life COULD be idealistically, even in our wildest dreams. If we would just think about this even an hour a day, I believe the world could change. Your post is a great example of how one person can envision a society that is radically changed for the better. Thank you.

Originally posted by buddhasystem
The OP is completely misguided.

Until the 90s, the US was a manufacturing powerhouse. We were exporting goods like refrigerators and musical instruments to many countries in the world. It's a travesty to say that the need for these items is "artificial".

Well, actually it IS artificial. Do you know what the purpose of advertising is? It's most certainly NOT to give you a neutral fact-based presentation of a product and let you decide if you want it or not. An advertisement's purpose is to convince you that you have a demand for the product. It tell you how much you want it. How much you need it.

The #1 product of any commercial property is thus demand - they create demand through advertisement.

For a case in point; baby formula. Humans are mammals. We have mammary glands. A woman lactates. The milk she produces is perfectly adequate for a human baby... In fact one might say they're made for each other. But no, we have these companies telling you that if you mix their product with water and feed it to your kid through a rubber nipple, it's BETTER for him. This is ridiculous enough in the first world, but it can be downright deadly in the third world, where water isn't usually of the highest quality. Nobody in the world needs baby formula. Ever. It is a completely superfluous product. But it - and insanely useless / dangerous baby products of all stripes - are some of the biggest global markets (somehow our species has persisted for over five hundred thousand years without baby seats for baths.)

All because of advertising creating imaginary demand.

Well, then these jobs were simply moved overseas. If you will, the country was strip-mined of potential by laissez faire attitude of the government.

True, but a separate issue from false demand. Though it could be argued that the markets overseas became saturated thanks to aggressive advertising creating so much demand, resulting in a "need" to cut costs to continue meeting the margin.

Simply put, the United States was actually over-producing, and the markets it was producing for were limited and created by hte advertising efforts of the people making those products. it was doomed to collapse from day one.

meaningless jobs will be phased out as consciousness rises..


not a one liner

great post! we have become a subservient society and we follow blindly not thinking that we devote or whole lives willingly to an existence where our sole purpose is we work to survive. We accomplish nothing but to merely survive!

Originally posted by Janky Red

Originally posted by macman
reply to post by Janky Red

 

OOOH NO. A snarky retort.
I require no permission from any Doctor.

Do I care about the course of the country, taxes and the system as a whole?
Sure do.
Am I going to spin my wheels fighting it, right now, in some vain attempt in self satisfaction so I can tell everyone "I fought the system"? No.
I will continue to vote with my money and ballot.
I will continue to save for my future, teach my kids everything that I can and provide for my family.

I am saying how can anyone who is willing to fight the system succeed, if there are a hundred million people
suggesting that ALL the systems problems are really just the consequence of the lazy and unemployed?

What you achieve with your attitude, knowingly or not, is ensure that the legitimate problems of the larger
whole are pinned to the foreheads of the nameless, faceless individuals who are "the real villains".
In effect the criminal behavior of the system architects can ignored altogether cause you have just
averted attention.

Is it your fault, that Multi national Oil Barron disrupt oil production and then make you pay for their bet, on top of the product itself?

I could really careless what you do , but I sure as hell do care if your are getting screwed by the same
system I live in, simply because that means 8/10 I am getting screwed too.

If that concept doesn't make sense to you, you should think about it until it does, you would be wiser for it.

edit on 17-9-2011 by Janky Red because: (no reason given)

edit on 17-9-2011 by Janky Red because: (no reason given)

Janky, I get it, I truly do.
The call to Revolution rings throughout my head often.
But, I am a realist. I have people that depend on me and my work to live and thrive, as you nor anyone else here on ATS will support them if I am carted off or killed.
It is a quandary to say the least.

reply to post by pepsi78


Good hell, talk about taking a quote and miss using it in a literal form.

I am not talking about armed revolt, or physically fighting. Stop trying to paint me into a corner due to your knee jerk assumptions.

Originally posted by gentledissident

Originally posted by macman
And stop with the Bush crap. He is gone. That was then, this is now.

Well, did you?

It doesn't matter because Bush is gone.

Spilled milk man.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by macman

 

Just getting out of debt is not enough.

As long as the banks are able to keep practicing their predatory lending practices, we are all screwed by higher prices everywhere.

There needs to be a serious crack down on the way banks are allowed to conduct fraudulent business. Reinstate usury laws setting a max allowed interest rate, and strict control on how credit ratings are made. Current credit rating policies are designed to encourage people into getting in debt over their head, and current bankruptcy laws allow banks to avoid risk for their questionable business practices.

We can't stop people from getting in debt, but we can stop the banks from creating this massive debt. Banks exist on a charter, essentially as an extension of the government, and so they should be reigned in by the government, which is the job government is supposed to do.

Until people wake up and start using the government for its purpose, we will all continue to be screwed.

Predatory lending is such a nonsensical made up term. All the left leaning groups have coined this phrase in hopes that people would picture some cigar smoking banker hiding int he shadows of the underbrush, ready to pounce on the unsuspecting person walking down the street without a care.

In all reality, people have been sold a false idea that all are entitled to own a house, regardless if you debt to income ratio is 75%, and your credit score is 300.
So since the banks were pushed by the Govt to loan to said persons, they had to make money on a risky deal, thus came high interest loans that balloon in 5 years.

I fail to know of any instance where the loan officer held a gun to anyone's head and forced them to sign the document.

Now, lets not go off on the tirade of "Macman78, you hate so on" or "Yeah, well the banks shouldn't have" blah blah blah crap.
Yes, the banks took advantage. But, the person signing the docs still signed of their own free will.

the op is right......its just so pointless....you go to work..... then you go home....then you get up and do it allll over again and again and again......its to keep people from thinking and seeing the bs that tptb pull constantly

Originally posted by soulofsirius
the op is right......its just so pointless....you go to work..... then you go home....then you get up and do it allll over again and again and again......its to keep people from thinking and seeing the bs that tptb pull constantly

Ok, I guess quit your job and allow someone else to work.

Not trying to pick a fight, but if that is the case, sounds like you need to either find a job you love or just don't work.

Originally posted by macman

Originally posted by gentledissident

Originally posted by macman
And stop with the Bush crap. He is gone. That was then, this is now.

Well, did you?

It doesn't matter because Bush is gone.

Spilled milk man.

I'll take that as a "yes".

reply to post by gentledissident


Sorry, I have not missed the point. You have ignored the point which is the natural conclusion to your statement.

Society has evolved to this form because it provides the greatest good for the most people. Some of the people will not like it, most do and most see that they can acheive as much success as they are willing to work for and the rewards are far more than any alternative you suggest.

To put it as succinctly as possible, I am very happy and I did it by working hard at a job I sometimes did not like but realized was necessary to get to a point of total freedom and happiness. I could literally not work another day at 41 years old and still live very well until I am a hundred. But you know what I LIKE MY JOB! there are people out here who like the system and they out number those who don't. So it is not going to change and if you want something different go off and do it, however i suspect that you will not for the same reason you don't like the current system. You don't push yourself and take risk to acheive happiness and thus you get stuck in a mediocre position which you hate, Not the systems fault! its yours. Go for what you want and stop complaining!

reply to post by macman


Macman,

I have read some of your post and have to say I agree with most of what you say. It seems like the people on this thread really just want to complain about being in a system they are completely free to leave and do something else. Go to Wyoming and creat this utopia where noone works. It would be an interesting experiment with about a two week half life.

Originally posted by jaomba
Society has evolved to this form because it provides the greatest good for the most people

We are arguing it was pushed to this point by people like you who will start an ATS account to brag about how much money you have and how wonderful life is for you and how the rest of us like it that way. Frightened? When I say you miss the point, I'm talking about your "throw away the computer" comment. I think you'll find we're talking about advancing technology for the security and comfort of every individual. Despite what you say, we are all equally deserving.

reply to post by doctornamtab

People who enjoy this thread might also enjoy exploring the concept of Social Credit, See

www.realnews247.com...

and What Is Social Credit?
www.michaeljournal.org...

Originally posted by gentledissident

Originally posted by macman

Originally posted by gentledissident

Originally posted by macman
And stop with the Bush crap. He is gone. That was then, this is now.

Well, did you?

It doesn't matter because Bush is gone.

Spilled milk man.

I'll take that as a "yes".

No, you assume yes.