Job! Jobs! Jobs! Cheering on our own slavery. Employment bubble popped. Fight against work.

reply to post by macman


Yeah, I can see why you want to forget about the GW, because the GW admin is an excellent example of how everything you believe is wrong.

The GW admin demonstrated clearly what a failure free market ideology is, and how we should never do that again, never vote in politicians like GW. The GW admin should never be forgotten, so that we can avoid repeating the mistakes of the past as long as possible.

Predatory lending is such a nonsensical made up term. All the left leaning groups have coined this phrase in hopes that people would picture some cigar smoking banker hiding int he shadows of the underbrush, ready to pounce on the unsuspecting person walking down the street without a care.

I don't know anybody who sees such nonsense. They don't hide in the bushes, they send letters offering to give you money. Everyday I get several solicitations in my mailbox. Their goal is to get you deep in debt, stuck paying unrealistic high interest rates. That is predatory lending, and we should have laws that prevent the bankers from carrying out this practice.

My point remains, loose credit drives up costs for everyone.

As far as the mortgage crisis goes, it was wide spread fraud. They took very risky loans, bundled them up, got them falsely rated as solid investments, and sold them. It is called fraud, and it is a crime, and they should all be getting convicted, stripped of everything they earned from their crimes, and then some.

Unfortunately, in this crooked system, they are getting patted on the back, and walking away with their il gotten gains. What we see is that too many people are getting placed above the law, and so they loose total respect for the law. When people loose respect for the law, then lawlessness starts to become the norm.

I am just pointing this out, so that when those who live in their big houses who think they have gotten by with their crimes, find thugs busting down their doors, and the police to busy too respond, might want to consider that they got the brutal smack down coming to them. Why should honest and decent people continue to support this system that rewards these crooks.

The reality is that people have been sold the false idea that they are entitled to lie, cheat, and steal for a living, and that they should not be held liable for their crimes.

Yeah, sure, you will attack me for trying to incite violence, but I am just the messenger.

reply to post by ImAwareSC


And I'm not asking you to. That would be foolish. What I am saying is that you need to recognize that the idea that you are entitled to a job is a dying one. Over the next 25 years or so most jobs are going to evaporate. At that point, we either kill everyone who isn't working, drastically reducing our population, or we come up with a credible alternative to "work," which -- though it has produced great things -- is rapidly becoming a very outdated construct by which we organize human life and achievement.

Originally posted by macman
Predatory lending is such a nonsensical made up term. All the left leaning groups have coined this phrase in hopes that people would picture some cigar smoking banker hiding int he shadows of the underbrush, ready to pounce on the unsuspecting person walking down the street without a care.

I do so love when people who know nothing about their own political ideologies try to frame that possessed by others!

"Predatory Lending" is just a six-syllable way of saying "usury," a term which, I hope you understand, grossly predates any sort of modern political term. It's essentially exploiting the needy. See, a person needs money for something... so they ask for a loan. The loaner sees the person is in need... and jacks up the interest rates to some insane levels. The person taking the loan isn't really in a position to turn it down, so they get stuck.

In all reality, people have been sold a false idea that all are entitled to own a house, regardless if you debt to income ratio is 75%, and your credit score is 300.

Actually people are entitled to a home. It's a basic human right. Maybe not a grandiose four-story, eight-bath mansion with a tennis court, but hey, the people you're #ting on here weren't taking loans for those sort of homes anyway.

So since the banks were pushed by the Govt to loan to said persons, they had to make money on a risky deal, thus came high interest loans that balloon in 5 years.

"The government" did no such thing. If anything it did the opposite; it deregulated. The Fed - non-government, remember - lowered its own interest rates in an effort to spur the economy. The Fed's interest rates actually went below the inflation rates. Now, you're not a genius by any shot, but I'm sure you can figure out the effect that the Fed setting such a low interest rate had on other banks, right? Feeding frenzy; a bank could make a profit by borrowing. And the more excuses they had to borrow, the more profit they could have...

Basically this means the banks themselves opened the floodgates for high-risk loans, because it was impossible to lose money on them.

But! it wasn't the high-risk loans that were the problem. See, a funny thing is.. .these high-risk cases were trying to buy homes for themselves and their families. They'd take out one loan and that was it. At the other end of the spectrum, you had the speculators who would take advantage of the new lasseiz-faire approach to loans to take out dozens, buy up properties, and try to resell them. This was called "flipping," I'm sure you heard the term around 2006. This caused the price of houses to rise dramatically; those folks looking to buy a place to live were forced to take bigger loans at higher interest because of the speculators. As all bubbles do, this one burst. The banks lost nothing; they had made a profit for every dollar they loaned out, and now they could collect on the mortgages owed. The speculators lost little; they were able to abandon their property, declare bankruptcy, and move on with what they had in their pockets. The people who bought family homes were stuck holding the bills for a grotesquely-inflated market created by the very people now demanding full payment.

I fail to know of any instance where the loan officer held a gun to anyone's head and forced them to sign the document.

Resprting to inane hyperbole doesn't make your ignorance any more educated.

Now, lets not go off on the tirade of "Macman78, you hate so on" or "Yeah, well the banks shouldn't have" blah blah blah crap.
Yes, the banks took advantage. But, the person signing the docs still signed of their own free will.

Yes, they did. I don't suppose you've ever seen some of the documents they signed, or sat there and listened to the bank's sales pitch, did you? Maybe it hasn't crossed your mind that most people aren't notary publics, don't bring a lawyer to the bank with them, and might have actually just been lied to by the bank?

While I'm sure you, like so many other ATS posters, have never, ever, EVER failed at anything, made even the smallest mistake, mismanaged so much as a dollar, been taken advantage of anyone, or been in any other situation where you have not performed admirably and heroically... the fact is most people aren't quite so gosh-darn whiz-bang #ing awesome as you. Just because they signed the papers does not actually mean they had full information, whether through a lack of understanding of legalese, or subterfuge by the banks. And in the end, it is the banks, not the buyers, who created the problem. So, cease your worship of the wealthy and take a #ing look around, hey?

reply to post by Cuervo


You misunderstand me, I am not anti technology. I am saying only those who understand it, and who can create it should be the ones to use and partake in it. I'm anti consumer. If you can't read the open information on how to build yourself a robot to do your work, you shouldn't have a robot. It's like all the yahoos that think they will just be swept up into some enlightenment or asension through no work or intelligence of thier own.

reply to post by poet1b


I do believe that the GW admin went WAY astray.
But, Bush is gone. Time for Obama and his supporters to put on their big boy pants and man-up for their failures, as they are in charge.

As for violence? No. I believe we still have other options.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


Not in a position to turn it down and gun to the head are 2 different things.
I love the fact that you believe that people are just too stupid to take responsibility for their life and choices. The Govt HAS to step in and take charge.

Any 10 year old could see that the loan clearly states in 5 years the interest rate goes from 5% to 15%. And that means more money.

Just because it is offered, does not mean you have to take it.

But, then again you seem to think people are just so dumb that every time a free piece of cheese is offered on the trap, they will ALWAYS stick their hand in to take it.
If they do, then they get trapped. It is not the fault of the trap, but the person that stuck their hand in.

No personal responsibility what so ever.
Amazing that these people can walk and talk at the same time.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


And yes, the Govt came out with regulation stating "Thou shall load", and the ilk like Sharpton, who receives funding from Govt Grants, marched on banks for loaning. Please refer back to the Clinton Years.

And yes, I have sat and listened to all the home loan pitches. I, unlike others, took the time to listen and research the different loans. Not just signing the paperwork and saying "WEEEEE! I got a house" with the flick of a pen.

And no, there is no right to a house. Your Liberal Utopian belief is not backed by any law.
Nice try though.

reply to post by gentledissident


I would have to be very strange person to "start a ATS account to brag about how much money I have" really not trying to offend you but you are as close to nothing to me as there can be, you will never actually know me and I will never actually know you. So bragging to you is pointless, and I am just not that strange. I am really here to exchange perspectives with people who are different from me, that is the value to me. Not bragging! I only mention my background so that you would know where I am coming from because it was relevant to the discussion. If you took it as bragging you should look at the receiver not the sender. I am sorry you are so unhappy with life that you get on here and make nonsensical arguments about a world without jobs and assume that anyone who supports it is bragging.

Yes I am happy, I enjoy my job and I enjoy my success. Others could also if they worked hard.

The point you missed was the logical extension of your goofy "don't have a job because it makes you a slave" philosophy.

Let me help you, in a modern society you need to have people who dedicate themselves to becoming specialist in among other things designing a computer, they must go to school then go to work every day for years until they are skilled enough to design a computer. If they don't and instead do everything all the time they will never achieve the specialized skill to design a computer (in fact they will actual only be able to design it with the help of many others doing the same thing)

So if you want your goofy utopia with no one working a JOB (i.e. specialized division of labor) then be prepared to live in a very undeveloped manner.

I for one prefer the current system. Not bragging just a fact. Sorry you don’t, not a put down just seems to be a fact from what you wrote.

1:13 HST PM 9/19/2011

What can us as individuals/We as a united people with a common idea, really do, to fight the Global Conspiratorial Menace/The Power$ That Be?

Is resistance really futile? Is rebellion against TPTB/NWO/Illuminati/FreeMasonry/Wealthy Elite a lost cause?

Is the Darkness falling daily on Our World our Final Destiny? Is the Dark Side really $tronger? Our we really doomed and hopeless? Is it too late?

Come together and "test the waters".

A Concerted Effort by Ethical CyberWarriors, environmentalists, conspiracy theorists, NWO haters, Militia, anti-government, anti-corporation, adherents & activists.

Proposed Course of Action: General Workers Strike/Call in sick, etc., Shut down all Financial Computer Network$ & Coordinate with all those of us globally at the bottom of the Con$umer-Ba$ed Capitali$t Ponzi Pyramid, just 1 bu$ine$$ day, globally, to not conduct any financial tran$action$, no bu$ine$$ tran$action$, no purcha$e$, no payment$, no buying ga$, food, no bu$iness contract production, do nothing involving money, commoditie$, bu$ine$$ in general.

In essence, JUST FOR 1 DAY....., $TOP PLAYING/PARTICIPATING IN THEIR Global CON$PIRATORIAL CAPITALI$T SCHEME/DEATHTRAP GAME!

Result: This could possibly demonstrate, and te$t, what power us little people/economic $laves have in today's global society/world against The Powers That Be, in protest to & against their obvious concerted effort$ (En$lavement) again$t us. We could find out geographically where are our strength and weaknesses are in numbers, where can we possibly be able to/start establishing bases/find refuge, etc. It is time folks. The handwriting is on the walls. If we don't act now it will be too late. Or is it already?

Rebel against The Evil Empire now.

Forgive me for rambling & poor sentence struture/grammer, etc. It's the thought that counts right? 8)

reply to post by seedyg


There is no way, no way! you will change a thing. People are inherently motivated by self interest the current system strikes an equilibrium between the most good for the most people and individual self interest. You know why your one-day strike would not work the same as I do before I even say it. 1 Most people would not participate 2 No one would participate for very long because they need to participate in the system for there own self interest. So the net effect would be very close to zero for the best participation you could possible hope for. Face it, this is the system, and it is not a bad one.

I like it a lot.

Learn to work within the system to make your life better, or sit on the fringes, gripe and complain and be miserable. There are no other options.

Originally posted by 0zzymand0s
reply to post by Guidance.Is.Internal
Make no mistake: automation and rudimentary AI will replace the last of human labor within decades. What we need to start discussing now is: Who does the world belong to? And to whom should the spoils of its resources be divided? I am of the opinion that everyone born here owns the resources by birthright. Your mileage may vary.

edit on 17-9-2011 by 0zzymand0s because: (no reason given)

You sound like Ray Bradbury back in the 60s. Great writer, same lousy predictions. Machines replacing people. No jobs in sight. He (and you) couldn't be more wrong. What's troubling is he eventually recognized the error of his ways. You have not, despite the evidence around you. Do you think we'd be better off without cars? Or any machines for that matter? Or any technology? Put away that stick, you're putting someone out of work. Again, critical thought is dead, and emotions rule. Sad.

So, this article from 1884 should be required reading (and supplements the OP perfectly):

Useful Work versus Useless Toil
by William Morris

"The above title may strike some of my readers as strange. It is assumed by most people nowadays that all work is useful, and by most well-to-do people that all work is desirable. Most people, well-to-do or not, believe that, even when a man is doing work which appears to be useless, he is earning his livelihood by it - he is "employed," as the phrase goes; and most of those who are well-to-do cheer on the happy worker with congratulations and praises, if he is only "industrious" enough and deprives himself of all pleasure and holidays in the sacred cause of labour. In short, it has become an article of the creed of modern morality that all labour is good in itself - a convenient belief to those who live on the labour of others. But as to those on whom they live, I recommend them not to take it on trust, but to look into the matter a little deeper.

Let us grant, first, that the race of man must either labour or perish. Nature does not give us our livelihood gratis; we must win it by toil of some sort of degree. Let us see, then, if she does not give us some compensation for this compulsion to labour, since certainly in other matters she takes care to make the acts necessary to the continuance of life in the individual and the race not only endurable, but even pleasurable.
...
Now, the first thing as to the work done in civilization and the easiest to notice is that it is portioned out very unequally amongst the different classes of society. First, there are people - not a few - who do no work, and make no pretence of doing any. Next, there are people, and very many of them, who work fairly hard, though with abundant easements and holidays, claimed and allowed; and lastly, there are people who work so hard that they may be said to do nothing else than work, and are accordingly called "the working classes," as distinguished from the middle classes and the rich, or aristocracy, whom I have mentioned above.
...
Next there is the mass of people employed in making all those articles of folly and luxury, the demand for which is the outcome of the existence of the rich non-producing classes; things which people leading a manly and uncorrupted life would not ask for or dream of. These things, whoever may gainsay me, I will for ever refuse to call wealth: they are not wealth, but waste. Wealth is what Nature gives us and what a reasonable man can make out of the gifts of Nature for his reasonable use. The sunlight, the fresh air, the unspoiled face of the earth, food, raiment and housing necessary and decent; the storing up of knowledge of all kinds, and the power of disseminating it; means of free communication between man and man; works of art, the beauty which man creates when he is most a man, most aspiring and thoughtful - all things which serve the pleasure of people, free, manly, and uncorrupted. This is wealth. Nor can I think of anything worth having which does not come under one or other of these heads. But think, I beseech you, of the product of England, the workshop of the world, and will you not be bewildered, as I am, at the thought of the mass of things which no sane man could desire, but which our useless toil makes - and sells?"

(more at the above link)

reply to post by Shivering Coward


This might help you make further sense of it:

libcom.org...

Originally posted by jaomba
Let me help you, in a modern society you need to have people who dedicate themselves to becoming specialist in among other things designing a computer, they must go to school then go to work every day for years until they are skilled enough to design a computer. If they don't and instead do everything all the time they will never achieve the specialized skill to design a computer (in fact they will actual only be able to design it with the help of many others doing the same thing)

Wow, that was condescending.

Originally posted by jaombaSo if you want your goofy utopia with no one working a JOB (i.e. specialized division of labor) then be prepared to live in a very undeveloped manner.

I don't think you've been reading this thread. You'll have to refute the points actually in the thread and not the points you are making up if you want to sway us nobodies.

reply to post by seedyg

It will take more than 1 day. We can afford to drop out for a while.

I guess that I will continue to work, so jackholes like this can thrive on my actions.
www.youtube.com...

Originally posted by poet1b
They don't hide in the bushes, they send letters offering to give you money. Everyday I get several solicitations in my mailbox. Their goal is to get you deep in debt, stuck paying unrealistic high interest rates. That is predatory lending, and we should have laws that prevent the bankers from carrying out this practice.

You dont accept these loans, do you? No one forces you to. Why isnt the blame placed on those who accept such loans, knowing full well that interest is like giving money away?

I dont accept loans because i dont want to give my money away. Those who choose to accept these loans know damn well there will be a time to pay back what was given, plus interest. If they get in trouble the blame lies solely on the loanee.

The government should not be some nanny who leads us by our hands thoughout our lives. There comes a time when people have to take responsibility for what they sow. We cannot protect people from themselves.

reply to post by Guidance.Is.Internal


The only critical thought that has died here is yours. Automation will replace 90% of all manufacturing workers in China over the next 10 years or so. The only thing left will be project management, cad designers, and maintenance technicians and they will be replaced in 25 years when the first rudimentary AI kicks in.

I happen to work in a field that uses rapid prototyping to machine working parts for other machines. 5 years ago we printed mock up's of a part and had them machined in the traditional sense. Today -- we use the printed part in over 60% of cases. Are you ready to think critically about that?

reply to post by gentledissident


I don't really want to sway you, I am interested in hearing your different perspective and having an academic discussion but there is no need to sway you as you said you are a nobody and swaying you will change nothing this society is going to proceed as it has for 1,000's of years regardless of whether you are swayed or not. By the way, I am also a nobody when it comes to changing this world.

As a matter of fact arguably the most powerful man in the world, the president is also a nobody. This system is so ingrained that ever person on this board in unison could devote every last minute of there life to changing it and it would barely make a blip on the radar. It is what it is, and it is not bad. Work with it and you can enjoy a happy life, fight it and live bitter and disappointed.

We should go back to barter system.