Job! Jobs! Jobs! Cheering on our own slavery. Employment bubble popped. Fight against work.

Originally posted by outandopen
Got to keep the slaves occupied or they might just get ideas.

You have the most accurate post, most reflective. It is as simple as that.
People with free spear time will ponder and ponder until they come up with stuff.

I had to comment and say that this is the best thread I've seen in a long time, possibly ever. It's about time someone dissects the whole jobs situation at face value in terms of our needs, food, our labor situation now in our current technological world as compared to the past farming in the fields, the many jobs that don't create anything of real value, etc.

I've always wondered why people always speak about jobs so highly "At least he has a job" ,etc. but they rarely consider the value of the job in terms of how it contributes to society or if the job is really necessary to the world at large. Also, people disregard simplifying anything and sacrificing certain material goods or doing things more efficiently and sensibly if it means people will lose their precious almighty jobs even though the job is only a means to get money which then will buy things that we could often produce on our own or acquire through trade and barter in a different type of society.

I have felt the basic sentiment of this thread for a long time and always felt a bit alien to everyone else around me who doesn't question these things in the same way. For instance, I could work at a mainstream shoe store, stare at the clock for most of my shift, hit a couple buttons on a cash register and never produce anything of value or do anything that a machine couldn't do but most people in this position wouldn't care as long as they get their share of green tickets with which to participate in the game of society...

I could go on and on but mainly it's just a breath of fresh air to see someone dissect our situation and lay out the truth so clearly instead of the usual bull by washington, the complicit media and much of the population who are afraid to think outside the box that these politicians and talking heads provide them with.

I think most people will come around and start to see these truths for themselves soon. We don't have to live like we do now hoping that a stupid politician will pass a jobs creation bill and make everything okay. We have the know how and the resources to live in a much better and sensible world than the one that currently is dominated and controlled by the powers that be who have demonstrated that they don't have our best interests at heart. There is simply too much power in the hands of too few and this is causing (and has caused for thousands of years) the world to operate in a way that is not in accord with what is sensible, right, and best.

Originally posted by doctornamtab
reply to post by SanguineDenial

 

I'm glad you are one of the few with a well paying, meaningful job that's worth the debt and interest your education is costing you.

Hello friend.

First please do not think that I was calling you borderline retarded as a being, just that particular statement. Maybe it was a little harsh but it was in no way meant as a personal insult.

Not to sound ungrateful my job is not what many would consider well paying in the industrialized world. Right now I am years away from completing my education in the field with on the job training so I make less than most pizza delivery boys. Thankfully my education both on the job and in the classroom can be realized without any loans. Basically my low wages for the next 4-5 years accomplish that. Also due to the cyclic nature of construction, I do not have guaranteed employment 12 months a year. In fact the last 3 years have been rather terrible with me having to scrape by on unemployment half the year. Having next to no income made me learn to appreciate what most people take for granted. I do not buy name brand foods or eat out, I prepare my own meals. When I buy a pair of pants or a shirt I make them last, I do not have the disposable income for fashion trends, it is blue collar all the way for me. I live paycheck to paycheck and at times go without meals. Along the way I have figured out that you don't need most of the things sold in our society. I commute from work in the Georgia sun without air conditioning to stretch fuel a little farther, I do without cellular phones and cable tv, hell I don't even have a TV set. Basic internet and a meager personal computer is the one luxury item I carved out of my limited means.

So often when I hear friends or random people around town complaining about being broke, they take for granted all that they have. They often bitch about their predicament while wearing brand name clothing, sitting in a climate controlled home and texting on their cellphone. What they fail to see is that they are broken and stuck in a cycle of debt because they continue to spend every last bit of their income on beer, prepared food and so many other luxuries that you do not need. Not so long ago in human history simply having black pepper was something limited to royalty, consider that.

Maybe the root of this problem is incorporation and the trend that you almost certainly have to work for someone else because it is nearly impossible to start your own enterprise in an economy saturated by mega-corporations with multimillion dollar lobbyists renting congress. I read once that 100 years ago 90% of all Americans were self employed, today 90% work for somebody else.

What we have today is far from a perfect system and it is rife with corruption but its still better than almost anything in recorded history. The modern wage slave has so much more freedom and mobility than the peasantry of the past and it is possible to break out of the financial bondage without too great a sacrifice by simply denying consumerist whims. My father grew up in a house with dirt floors, my grandmother grew up without electricity or plumbing. Its so easy to take for granted what we have. In most places on earth having clean water, climate control and a personal computer with internet is something reserved for the elite. I hardly consider this predicament to be enslavement. Could society be better? Sure, that desire is what has pushed mankind for ages.

Fantastic!

You've been able to articulate in a single post what I've been trying to make sense of for some time.

Bravo Sir!

Originally posted by gentledissident

Originally posted by SanguineDenial
almost all organized labor unions will teach you for no cost other than your commitment through apprenticeship

It's recently occurred to me that an internship, mentor-ship, or apprenticeship would be perfect for me to learn a meaningful trade, unlike the "useless" jobs the OP refers to. My day and night is consumed with a useless unneeded job. In the free time I have available, I have tried to find a start to this process. Any suggestion would be appreciated. I can't just go make friends with a tradesman in Oklahoma. I am not a "good ole boy".

edit on 15-9-2011 by gentledissident because: (no reason given)

You can walk into near any organized labor local union and inquire about learning the trade. I'm not sure about other trades but the IBEW is mainly looking for motivated individuals that are willing to take the many years required to learn the skills (becoming a Journeyman Wireman worth his salt takes as long or longer than med school). If you are sincere about wanting to learning a trade craft then you should not have trouble gaining entry into an apprenticeship, granted that you can pass a basic entrance exam that anyone with a 9th grade education should be able to pass. If you can read, write, do basic algebra and are willing to respect senior tradesmen it is a great way to better yourself. Fair warning, it is hard work. You will be hot in the summer time and cold in the winter and get used to eating a cold lunch.

S&F for you, you are right on.

I wrote a post on a thread about utopia a while back and the way you are thinking is right on the money. We have become slaves to technology and society. We work our butts off to run out and get the newest gadget only for it to be obsolete in 6 months and then we do it all over again.

We are taught from grade school about what you want to be when you grow up and are taught that working your entire life just to pay for a bunch of false crap that won't do you any real good and only make some one else richer. We work a job and make our "living" and none of it does any real good when it comes to personal survival. We don't work for our sustenance anymore, we work for money to trade in for our sustenance.

Personally I wold much rather have lived 100 or so years ago. Sure it was a harder life in some ways but we were only "slaves" to our own "needs" not societies status quo. Now instead of working ourselves to the point that we are physically worn out we let our jobs kill us from the inside out from stress. I'm not anti-labor either but I just think we work for all the wrong things in modern times.

Well hopefully if all go as planned I will be dropping out of this "society" for the most part soon. I have found some large pieces of land in some of the north central states and if I can make things work the way I want I'm going to live as we were meant to live, off the land that I own, from the food on that land.

It would be no small feat to change the system that's in place in our (for want of a better wording) Western society. Many countries adopt models and concepts from their allies/neighbours and implement them into their systems and infrstructures. I feel this is a major problem we have as it sets a standard for others to follow instead of looking at new and improved ways of living life and doing things.
Based on this though I hope that all it will take is one country to make the change and the others will eventually follow once they can see it working in a positive fashion. It begins with us though, to form an idea and spread that idea to others in our communities and eventually (with hope) it would gather enough momentum to create the change that has been idealized and polarized. I like to think of it as this -: we each represent a drop of water and together we form a body of water until eventually becoming an ocean of water, it is this that allows to create the "tide of change" that is needed. It would take an ocean of people as there are so many things that need to be changed, not just jobs but major infrastructure and policies that have been adopted by our governments.
Again it comes down to us to make the choice of whether we want to do something about it or do nothing about it and continue on this path of destruction.
A common phrase that I hear a lot of in the work place is "There is NO I in team" but I beg to differ on that, "there is a U and an I in team" as it takes U and I to create team. Maybe we need to reasses some of the ideals we work with as I believe they are sometimes what holds us back.
I would love to see a major change in the world and I hope and believe that this idea is possible.

Peace to you all

Originally posted by gentledissident

I'm sorry about your lack of stars. I agree with you. In addition to necessities being a given, we need very short work weeks. We need to develop and maintain technology that allows very short work weeks. We need to maintain an infrastructure, so we will always need to work. We just don't need to work long hours at meaningless jobs. Supply and demand is a fine and natural thing. However, demand is sold along with the supply. We are told what we want.

Dear gentledissident,

Almost gave up on getting an answer from anyone..
Thanks for noticing that I was a few steps ahead of the game
by providing solutions to our problems instead of pointing the finger.

I agree, advertising has created artificial needs for the general population.
no wonder people feel empty inside, they have no time left for themselves
to create anything of value, such as music, art, books, etc.
you know, CULTURE.

by the way, I know about the LED light Farmscraper idea,
I got a few ideas of my own on how to generate electricity,
think altitude, wind currents and 2 air shafts at each extremity.
Due to the difference in pressure and temperature you have lots of air
streams circulating, just attach wind turbines and you got yourself a constant source
of electricity. Such ideas can be implemented in the building of new
high rise buildings, imagine how much electricity one would save.
Top this with humidifiers for water condensation and farmscrapers
and you have self sufficient cities.

It's funny how everyone plays the left right paradigm game.
How about sticking to understanding how the different systems work,
realize the flaws in each, and build a hybrid that takes positives from both?

I have my own view of how a nation should be ran, but then I'd have to rule it
to keep it running proficiently. One thing I cannot stand is incompetence and inneficiency,
and corruption is the source of it.

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by doobydoll
I am happy living a simple life - and it feels great to be off the treadmill.

Someone is on that treadmill and working their arses off to subsidize your housing, dear

Excuse me?
Sorry I was spitting mad, and at first I thought it was like social security. I re-read it and it is occupational pension. With any pension plans, the employee pays into it. How are you working your arse off to pay for her pension. Even if it was like social security, the person paid their hard earned money into social security along with employers paying into it. I know in the US the government messed it up to be polite, and it is the only reason why people working now are paying into it for those who are on it. The way it is suppose to work is like a retirement fund. I really hope you aren't so sour as to think everyone on social security should stop receiving their checks, and go out to find non-existant jobs. Let alone a job that would hire a senior.

Your attitude. Sorry, we need to care for people in our society no matter what circumstances they are in. I agree 100% that there is enough food, water, shelter, and clothing to accommodate the masses. There does not need to be any starvation in America, Europe, or Africa. If would take care of those basic necessities, then people would be free to do what they will. After those necessities are taken care of, I guarantee most people would still go to work to gain the luxuries in life or to "improve" their life so they would have more than the basic necessities. For those who don't, then it is their choice.

There is no need or reason for people to be living and starving on the streets, for children and adults to rummage though garbage just to find something to eat and wear. That is what sickens me. An economy that can't take care of all the people is failing miserably.

reply to post by doctornamtab


sounds good . the jobs need to be done to run the world but are not enjoyable because we are treated like slaves , no slaves are property and are looked after as such but we are less than slaves , as we can be replaced at no cost !!!
A job is more enjoyable if the wage is enought to have fun on not just servive . And in England there would be less work for migrent workers if the government was not paying the bit firms like Tesco half the wages they pay to migrent worker back . The wages would be higher if the top bosses were not paying themselves such high wages , bonuses and the not spending any of this as they use thier expence acount to pay all even the morgage .
On top aff this they call us lazy when they dont pay a wage and dont do anything exept rip us and the share holder off !!!!

What do you people think about what this guy is saying?
It is a good thing that things like that are said on mainstream media.

reply to post by Mcupobob


The problem as I see it is that the capitalist consumer society that you love so much enslaves you as much as communism did in the old Soviet states - just in a different way. We are all fed the myth that "anyone can become a millionaire/the President/successful" under a capitalist system - but it's really nothing more that a carrot on a stick designed to get a hard days work out of you while you dream of achieving something you can never attain. It's a clever mythology invented by the ruling classes to blind you to your own slavery. Everyone can't become rich. In order to become disgustingly rich, many others have to do without. It's a system designed BY the rich, FOR the rich.

What the OP is talking about is a society based on equality and fairness. Where people don't starve or live on the street just because they had a series of bad breaks or made some bad decisions. A system where pointless, useless jobs that are merely there to make a tiny percentage of the population disgustingly wealthy at everyone's expense are no longer necessary or needed. I don't have a problem with that concept personally, and I think eventually we will HAVE to go that route or simply destroy ourselves in the futile and selfish pursuit of greed, money, and personal power.

Superb thread, some really good ideas here which have prompted me to finally sign up to the forum - this subject is close to my heart!

Check out idlefoundation.org... - a campaign against the pernicious work ethic that threatens to engulf us all

Great to meet you.

Star and flag! You write with such conviction that I can't help, but feel so impassioned by the clear and concise way you digest the reality of wage slavery or "jobs." I believe that with all the wealth, food and resources we have we seriously could feed, clothe and shelter the whole world 10 times over if not more, so no one should go hungry or homeless in this world. A perceptive observation I recall hearing sometime ago is that with all the talk about generating employment for jobless people is that it's not how much you employ that counts, but how much you produce! For instance, in the past the husband used to go to work while the wife stayed home to look after the children and his salary could support the whole family, but now even with the wife and husband both going to work they can't get by on two incomes. IMHO it's primarily because sadly in our Western world we're no longer producing as much as we once did instead we've delegated that responsibility to foreigners like China and India and instead we're just consuming their produce. At the same time farmers are leaving the land in droves and so we have fewer people producing what we truly need, that is, food! Not to mention the prison system, which I personally am against, as it uses tax payers money to feed, house, etc. these criminals when really they should either be paying restitution to the victims of crime or else be executed for capital offenses. And in most cases the prison system is little more than cheap slave labor since governments use them to produce stuff thus undercutting lawful businesses in society that might be producing the same products. It's so corrupt the system, I wonder, when we sheeple are going to finally say we've had enough of the status quo and rise up against the system?!

Originally posted by buddhasystem
The OP is completely misguided.

Until the 90s, the US was a manufacturing powerhouse. We were exporting goods like refrigerators and musical instruments to many countries in the world. It's a travesty to say that the need for these items is "artificial".

Well, then these jobs were simply moved overseas. If you will, the country was strip-mined of potential by laissez faire attitude of the government.

Yes, he is missing the big picture.
---------
I think they have been brainwashed by some liberal professor.

Originally posted by MrLivered
Check out idlefoundation.org... - a campaign against the pernicious work ethic that threatens to engulf us all

This is an awesome site. Thanks.

I'm all for making necessary work short and easy through mechanization and concentration of labor. Life is a cruel joke in the first place. We gain consciousness to realize we will die and have no memory of what we just lived through. Slavery makes the joke ultra-cruel. I want to enjoy this joke by laughing at it. I want to run, jump, climb, and play like the other animals. I want to make art, music, magic, and innovation like this particular species can. I do not want to be a slave any longer.

Define irony:

People on an internet message board, sitting behind computer screens, enjoying running water, electricity, and cheap food urging people to stop working.

I don't know why thinking people even post on threads like this any more, but here goes. It seems as though few of you people appreciate the complexity of systems which deliver your creature comforts. The combine which harvests your wheat is guided by GPS and sophisticated electronics. It is constructed of high quality steel, molded, welded and bolted together. It eats diesel which is extracted from the Earth and processed in refineries which have hundreds of miles of piping and wiring, programmable logic controllers, boilers, pumps, compressors. This is just scratching the surface. You think this will keep working if everyone just says "oh, screw it, no more work for me". No, it won't. So what you must be advocating is a return to natural living. Fine, but I doubt many people appreciate the difficulty of living off the land. You'd be spending many, many hours of every day just to eat and enjoy shelter. In highly modernized countries, you don't have to work very many hours to afford canned food which will last you a month. It doesn't take much money to rent a room in someone's house, or live in a van, or just camp it .. or just live with family and really save cash. The more I read threads like this, the more I'm convinced that critical thinking is long dead, and emotions will inevitably rule political thought.

reply to post by Guidance.Is.Internal

I've been seeing posts like your in the thread. I'm not sure you understand what we're trying to achieve. We want a world which accommodates us instead of enslaving us. This will need a rethink of technology and employment, so current models are a moot point here.

I have been a longtime reader but this is my first post, I enjoy reading alternative perspectives and feel that 70% of the ideas exchanged on this forum are from intelligent people who question the world we live in and try to make sense of it with an open mind, 30% are loons.

I felt compelled to chime in with my perspective as each of you do with yours. To give you some background on me (to understand my perspective) without getting too personal, I have worked hard my whole life, I have an undergrad BSME and a grad degree MBA both of which I got more than twenty years ago. I have NEVER! not had a job since I was fifteen, this includes after school in high school and putting my self thru college and grad school not one day as even the transitions where planned and I moved from one job to another. I once went three years without a weekday off except for major holidays

In return for this hard work I have built a business with 3 partners which employs almost 300 people, last year my NET income was just north of 700K with this income I have bought apartment complexes and stakes in other small businesses all of which compound on each other to elevate myself and my family. My hope is to build a legacy for my children and there children.

Now for the part that is going to upset some on this board, with the exception of a small amount of luck I feel I deserve every penny. I worked hard, took risk, failed and picked myself back up again and eventually achieved a decent amount of success. Not as much as some but more than most. The interesting thing is my children do not deserve this wealth but they will have it just the same(I will do my best to teach them the value of what they are being given), in a way you could say they where born lucky, I was not! I scraped for everything I have.

The people that work for me simple do not deserve to be paid as much as me, they either did not earn as much education, did not constantly push the limit with what they had, did not take the right risk, etc. They are not bad people and I do not look down on them. In fact one of my family’s dear friends is my secretary who has worked for me for over ten years, she earns 70k a year and is grateful since it is a fair wage for her knowledge and effort.

In this society we live in there must be a division of labor. No one has mentioned this yet, in order to operate as an efficient society we must develop people who specialize in doing one thing only, i.e. a doctor, a lawyer, a carpenter, a machinist, a engineer. If everyone did everything we would operate very inefficiently and as a society acheice very little.

Naturally some skill sets are more difficult to achieve, those skill sets are more highly rewarded because they give more value back to the society. Broom pusher is not a very difficult skill set to develop and is therefore very lowly compensated.

Other people will learn skill sets that are difficult to achieve but for one reason or another they become less valued, i.e horsewhip makers at the time of the advent of the automobile. These people need to pick themselves up and reeducate themselves for another profession or resign themselves to reenter the work force in a low skill job and be compensated accordingly.

Naturally the division of labor looks like a pyramid, more highly skilled positions on top with less people doing them and less work for them, lower skilled positions on the bottom with more people doing them and more work to be done.

The anger and or frustration expressed on this thread seems to be from those at the bottom of the pyramid, naturally there are more of those people so you hear a great deal of people chiming in and agreeing. Well there are less of me, part way up the pyramid, and you do not hear as many of those like me chiming in because there are fewer of me. But I am here to tell you, it can be done by working a job and it can be done by taking risk and moving forward. Stop whining about it, pick yourself up and get a positive attitude and do it.

reply to post by Guidance.Is.Internal


Who are you kidding? You didn't read the thread at all. You skimmed the OP and then blasted in with your pro-statist propaghandi.

While it may be true that modern technology requires highly trained workers to research, innovate, replicate and keep running efficiently, it is also demonstrably true that every advance in technology replaces large groups of people with automation in the workforce.

If it hasn't replaced you yet -- whoopty for ya. But it will, sometime over the next 12-25 years. And if it doesn't, you are far too smart to be posting here anyway.

Make no mistake: automation and rudimentary AI will replace the last of human labor within decades. What we need to start discussing now is: Who does the world belong to? And to whom should the spoils of its resources be divided? I am of the opinion that everyone born here owns the resources by birthright. Your mileage may vary.