POLI: Crime - What Are The Netherlands Doing Right?

Originally posted by Ben Niceknowinya

Must I remind you that the US consumes BY FAR more drugs than any other place on the planet?

You seem to be one for invention. Please prove this. Everywhere I have just looked on Google shows you to be very, very wrong. The UK for a start has more drug users per cap than the USA and many, many 3rd World countries have massively more users and addicts.

You say that Americans "misbehave" more too. Please prove that.

You say that they "party hardy" more. Facts please.

You say that there is more binge drinking in the USA. This can be proved wrong so easily. UK, Ireland, Scandinavia and possibly Japan consume much more alcohol per head than the USA. Relatively the USA is quite moderate with alcohol.

It seems that every fact that comes up you want to jump on it with "yep, that's us Americans, aren't we wild and wacky!?"

Its really easy,
All the criminals are in cafes or in windows in the red light district.
they are slippery ones.

Originally posted by disgustedbyhumanity
Poverty and the feeling of hopelessness are the major motives for people using drugs in my opinion.

You see.. this is the problem with much of the views regarding drug use and its criminalization.

Drug use across the spectrum occours in abundance in absolutely every section of society.. hense "Recreational Drugs" - Cannabis, Mdma, and amphetamine use in this part of the world occurs regularly on the weekends by those under the age of 30 who hold steady, mid - high end jobs, have mortgages etc.. Its almost a culture at this stage.. not a problem.

But yes, addictive drug use go hand in hand with bad social environments and and socil problems..

The problem is that too many people are too ignorant and bigotus to differenciate between "recreational" and "problem" substances.

This makes it extremely hard for an actual solution to be found with the problem of recreational substance putting money into the pockets of dangerous criminals.

People need to start thinking proactively about drug use/sale inorder to stop money for these substances getting into the hands of criminals instead of somewhere it can be put to good use.

[edit on 25/5/09 by Dermo]

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984


Cheers for the input Doc. Whilst harsher sentences may be part of it, the USA has pretty harsh sentences, harsher than most of the UK sentences and yet your crime rate is higher than ours. So it obviously isn't just about punishment.

This isn't true. We can't get anywhere in this discussion without facts. The UK has higher crime rates than the USA in everything except murder, rape and firearms offences.

That the USA has much lower offences is burglary is an easy one, as in many states, a burglar knows he could be shot by entering someone elses property. They have to worry about no such thing in the UK.

Don't forget we in the UK have social security for everyone and free health care.
Yet the gap between rich and poor is wider than ever and child poverty is increasing.

Not one Dutch person I knew went to the red light district, saying 'it was for tourists and foreign criminals.

They are a society with pride in themselves and their country..not in a nationalistic way... you only have to look at their clean streets to know they appreciate and respect where they live.

Leige in Belguim has the highest crime rate in Europe, five years ago I found myself with three children in the middle of a shoot out with a drug gang and police, in the railways station.
I saw guns, amo and grenades being sold openly on the market there, of course it may have changed now

reply to post by Kaytagg


You are right about that one, the parents ( from what I have seen ) don't have any control over their kids misbehaving on the streets, because they often just don't know. I know a couple of maroccan guys who got caught by their father. The father found out that they where misbehaving, and they seriously got the whip over it.

It is for this reason they're outside on the street so often, they respect their parents, but their parents often have no clue of what their kids are doing.

Aside of that, the parents often don't speak Dutch, wich is a problem, they can't teach their kids the normal ethics and culture goes trough the netherlands, so they miss out alot on that one. And its hard for the government to make contact with them

as rightous as it makes some people feel, most conservative laws hidden in a veil of morality, are supported by major corporate agenda.
The netherlands have begun to incorporate basic common sense into the equation, and have grown tired of being used by the greed mpotivated companies.

The ONLY reason Hemp is outlawed in the US is due to corporate pressure.
Legal hemp farming would help end deforestation for pulp.
Corporate paper companies cannot afford that.
Cotton farming which depletes the spoil of nutrients is horribly inefficient compared to hemp textile production and farming, which doesnt strip the soil.
the cotton industry couldnt let that happen.
Im just speaking of HEMP here.. stalk and fiber.. not pot, which is another strong product that is kept illegal by Big Pharma..as well as (gasp) the alcohol industry.

add into it the privatized prison system needing the arrests to fill their cells and pockets, social control of government, DEA budget concerns, etc..

when we start looking at things with a bit of common sense.. we can stop allowing the corporate greed write our laws.
when we can write sensible laws.. crime will be reduced.

*edited for my horrible typos.



[edit on 25-5-2009 by Ninja-san]

Originally posted by TheBandit795
reply to post by Solidus Green eye

 

Moroccans AND Antillean?? Forgive me if I find that hard to believe.

Antillean and Moroccans are from two very different cultures, and they hardly hang out together.

And also forgive me if I don't believe that the crime rate in Holland is that low. There is also a reigning malcontent with law enforcement and lack of trust in the police there. They usually see them as lazy and only focused on fining traffic infiltrations.

And they don't report the thousands of stolen bicycles every day.

I've seen with my own eyes how some boys were knocking on the chain of a bike in broad daylight, and no one even bothered to interfere or call the police. (I didn't call either, assuming someone else would.. so blame me..

)

yes, Moroccans AND Antillean. Its no that they have joined together and battle together ..but both are problematic subcultures apart from each other.

They both have no affection with Dutch culture, and they act often like they don't care what is going on. (Im talking about the 14-25 year olds )


But you make some good points about the police, they are lazy ..and the majority of the netherlands thinks the police needs a re-shape.
People don't call the police because they don't trust them. Indeed from our perspective the police appears to be lazy , overweigt, giving people fines for silly things, and it looks like they aren't taking care of the serious isseu's at all.

Wich is true in some cases, but thats a political fault... burocratic isseu's.
The government insists that immigrants are treated with a soft hand..because they want to be discriminating them. Wich is non-sens everyone has the same rights here, but some how immigrants , especially the problematic youth take advantage of that. By yelling dicrimination the second someone adresses their behavior.

And by the way, my bike was stolen twice this month

It is complete Rubbish to think that crime is getting less in the Netherlands!!!

I live in the Netherlands and things are just getting tougher every week! More and more robberies and violence, it all gets silenced to death.
I don't want to condemn no one, but most crimes are committed by people that don't have their roots in the Netherlands but in Northern Africa, Turkey and the Caribbean. I've been in Jail and had the opportunity to experience it myself, I was the only white guy in the section I was placed in.

Closing the Jails in Holland is because the Politicians are aware but they are closing their eyes for these problems, they want society to be violent and rotten in order to toughen the Laws and at some point they will put their Martial Law in place.
Just another Case of "Ordo ab Chao".

The police are a joke. Their hands are tied. People do not take them serious, wich causes them to over compensate.
The petty crimes are mostly done by non native dutch (or second generation) and those get a lot of media attention.
You almost never hear about the "bigger" crimes wich are done by mostly native dutch people.Holland is the biggest exporter of xtc.

I think we are a little hypocritical, since stealing from people is a no no, but stealing from the goverment is considered a sport. :

Originally posted by Haunebu
It is complete Rubbish to think that crime is getting less in the Netherlands!!!

Closing the Jails in Holland is because the Politicians are aware but they are closing their eyes for these problems, they want society to be violent and rotten in order to toughen the Laws and at some point they will put their Martial Law in place.
Just another Case of "Ordo ab Chao".

Well i can see what you're saying here however the figures don't quite add up. People everywhere tend to think it's getting worse and that politicians are closing their eyes to the problem. In the UK you often hear that the figures are fudged because they let people off so in the end i would suggest it's pretty even in that regard. We have to go on the figures and the figures are all very similar for the netherlands, at least all the figures i could find were.

In fact many of the nordic countries had lower crime rates than the UK and USA. I only picked the netherlands because it was the original country mentioned in the article that was actually closing prisons.

reply to post by Solidus Green eye


I can't say about the Moroccans, but I'm sure that not all young Antilleans are like you describe. In fact, they are probably a minority in between the other Antilleans who do integrate into the culture there.

What I do know is that their crimes do get over reported in the Dutch media while that is not the case with the crimes committed by Caucasian Dutch. When a person commits a crime he is Arubian, or Antillean or where ever his ancestors are from (technically Arubians and Antilleans do not exist, we are all Dutch). But when he does something good he's Dutch. Baseball player Andruw Jones is praised as a Dutchman. I'm sure they would consider dr Ed Cheung to be a Dutchman.

reply to post by TheBandit795


You see this i don't understand. Here in the UK the papers and certain political parties keep saying that the immigrants are the problem, causing all the crime etc. It's utter nonsense. The majority of the prison population are born and bred in the UK! Why people don't see ths little fact i am not sure.

The UK has immigration and the netherlands has immigration yet the crime rate in the UK is disproportionately more. So again, why do the dutch have less crime per capita? Is it something about rehabilitation, sentencing, education, opportunities?

I think it should be looked into.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984



The figures are always provided by the state or an agency that works for them, there is no reason to believe those figures.

I read most national Uk papers online rarely do I see immigrants blamed for the majority of crime it would be deemed un PC the only political party who does is the BNP which has a very small following.

We have to get things in perspective on the whole The Netherlands is a more equal society, hence less need for crime.

Crime stastistics for the UK take into account people going to court for none payment of tv licence or putting rubish out on the wrong day.
Youth has been demonized a young girl got an asbo for playing hopscotch in the street.

One country may have the highest car crime another murder or rape, one country may have a higher reporting rate for certain crimes, all figures can be manipulated by the powers who be for their own agenda.

reply to post by TheBandit795


You are right, not every antilian is that way, im pointing to the problematic youth. I can't say what the statistics are on who's bahaving bad and who'n not

Originally posted by triplesod

Originally posted by Ben Niceknowinya

Must I remind you that the US consumes BY FAR more drugs than any other place on the planet?

You seem to be one for invention. Please prove this. Everywhere I have just looked on Google shows you to be very, very wrong. The UK for a start has more drug users per cap than the USA and many, many 3rd World countries have massively more users and addicts.

You say that Americans "misbehave" more too. Please prove that.

You say that they "party hardy" more. Facts please.

You say that there is more binge drinking in the USA. This can be proved wrong so easily. UK, Ireland, Scandinavia and possibly Japan consume much more alcohol per head than the USA. Relatively the USA is quite moderate with alcohol.

It seems that every fact that comes up you want to jump on it with "yep, that's us Americans, aren't we wild and wacky!?"

Certainly. Glad to see your sources, btw.


stopthedrugwar.org...

Despite tough anti-drug laws, a new survey shows the U.S. has the highest level of illegal drug use in the world. The World Health Organization's survey of legal and illegal drug use in 17 countries, including the Netherlands and other countries with less stringent drug laws, shows Americans report the highest level of coc aine and marijuana use.
For example, Americans were four times more likely to report using coc aine in their lifetime than the next closest country, New Zealand (16% vs. 4%),

…it's striking that the lifetime marijuana use rate in the U.S. (42.4 percent) is more than twice as high as the rate in the Netherlands (19.8 percent), despite the latter country's famously (or notoriously, depending on your perspective) tolerant cannabis policies. The difference for lifetime coc aine use is even bigger: The U.S. rate (16.2 percent) is eight times the Dutch rate (1.9 percet).

Cocaine & Cannabis. Again, the United States led the world, with 20.2 percent trying marijuana by age 15. No other country was even close, and in the Netherlands, just 7 percent used marijuana by 15 -- roughly one-third of the U.S. figure.

A new study of 17 countries found USA to lead in drug coc aine and marijuana experimentation. More than 42% of Americans have tried marijuana, and 16% of Americans have tried coke. Cocaine use in the United States was so high that it was a statistical outlier in the study

Currently, the United States is experiencing some of the highest levels of drug addiction than at any time in its history. And while many drugs that were popular in the 1970's are no longer as commonly abused today, the numbers are still staggering overall.

Consider the following information about drug addiction – and how it has invaded almost every segment of our society.

Drug Addiction Facts and Statistics
The information below pertains to drug addiction and drug abuse in the United States – at both a national and state-by-state level.

The number of people who died as a result of a coc aine overdose was 699 in 2004. In 1992 that number was 223.
Between the years 2001 and 2005, the number of Americans between the age of 50 and 59 who were using illegal drugs rose from 2.5 percent to 4.7 percent.
Over six million children in America live with at least one parent who has a drug addiction.
Since 1980, the number of deaths related to drug overdoses has risen over 540 percent.
The most commonly abused drug (other than alcohol) in the United States by individuals over the age of 12 is Marijuana, followed by prescription painkillers, coc aine and hallucinogens.
Since 1990, the number of individuals who take prescription drugs illegally is believed to have risen by over 500 percent


I was shocked to learn that amphetamine-type drugs are more common in Europe(1st) than the US. I wasn't aware of this.
I figured with all the rednecks cooking meth up in US, this was another category which we "shamefully" lead the world in.
USA is also the most abusive/dependant country of barbituates. OR pills.
As for Opiates, that's a no-brainer. Asia.
"Because production of opium is centered in Southwest and Southeast Asia, the highest levels of use are found in countries close to the source."

As for misbehaving?

Well, do you really want me dish out the statitistics of
criminality, criminal mentality in America? I don't think this is the thread for it. But here you go.
Check out crime is US in general. en.wikipedia.org...
Another fact: highest crime in: workplaces, schools, region, urban crime, weapon use, (violent trends) and also role of alcohol in crime victimization.
"Americans have a greater chance of being a violent crime victim than
of being injured in a motor vehicle accident." Imagine that......
See source:www.druglibrary.org...

Back on topic. My point is it will be very VERY difficult to create proper drug policies in America, and result success, with comparison to Europe.
We are much more likely to witness drug pandemics with instant legalization. That's why I (yet again) point out the importance or significance of valuable programs to BE IN PLACE before any attempt to legalize ANYTHING.!
.......And proper REHABILITATION laws, and programs.
What good is it to legalize something (anything) if you're really not helping the individual with substance abuse? How will it contribute positive to society??




Drug polices of the Netherlands: en.wikipedia.org...

In the Netherlands, the national drug policy officially has four major objectives:

To prevent drug use and to treat and rehabilitate drug users.
To reduce harm to users.
To diminish public nuisance by drug users (the disturbance of public order and safety in the neighborhood).
To combat the production and trafficking of drugs



[edit on 25-5-2009 by Ben Niceknowinya]

Decriminalizing drug use and prostitution are certainly factors in the lower crime rate. It's not that drug addiction is condoned, it's just treated as a public health issue rather than a crime. When people can legally obtain drugs that cuts out the enormous profits for drug dealers and other middlemen, because the user can simply obtain their supply with a prescription. That would considerably reduce the amount of violence associated with drug trafficking now.

Another legal phenomenon here are the "three strikes and you're out" laws. If an individual is convicted three times they go to prison for life. The three strikes laws don't make any distinction between crimes that truly endanger society and those which are not violent and may only involve stolen property or even lesser crimes. So a person with convictions for drunk driving, drug possesion and stealing gas from a convenience store can go to prison for life, the same penalty that would be given to a person with three assault and/or attempted murder or actual manslaughter or homicide charges.

As the laws are at present, a judge cannot intervene in the judgment and reduce the penalty if the offenses are, in their opinion, not deserving of life in prison. A change in the laws that would allow judges to exercise their own discretion in a "three strikes" case would be very desirable.

We have here one of the highest rates of incarceration in the world. We can't build prisons fast enough to accomodate all of our convincts. We have to look at ourselves and analyze why we appear to be a relatively violent society, especialy compared with Europe.

It's time we Americans looked at other people's ways of dealing with crime and maybe learned something.

Originally posted by dizzylizzy

One country may have the highest car crime another murder or rape, one country may have a higher reporting rate for certain crimes, all figures can be manipulated by the powers who be for their own agenda.

Figures can only be manipulated so much, as i linked the netherlands has a much lower incidence of rape, murder and burglary. The difference is so big it would be hard to fudge those figures like that.