POLI: Crime - What Are The Netherlands Doing Right?

[pressimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/65e7091d9e77.jpg[/pressimg] I would like to link a story here, the Netherlands seem to have a reducing crime rate, and i wonder why. www.nrc.nl...

Now of course the netherlands has been famed for having more liberal laws than other western countries. Their approach to prostitution and drugs will of course reduce the prison population. However this doesn't account for all of it, so i wonder, should we study this country to learn why they have a reducing crime rate? It isn't simply a case of making things legal, it really does seem to be a more peaceful society.

I will provide figures, per capita of some crimes. I can't cover them all of course.
www.nationmaster.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">Murder Per Capita

Here the netherlands has less murder per capita than the UK or USA


Burglaries Per Capita


Again less than the UK or USA.


Rapes Per Capita

Same again.


Now don't get me wrong here, i am not saying it is a perfect country, but maybe we could all learn from their system something about how to reform criminals. Look i'm all for punishment, i have a thread up somewhere about increasing mandatory sentences. But increasing sentences isn't enough. It's tackling the social issues that cause the crime which need a serious look at and why shouldn't we learn from another nation that is getting results?

If you want to see how decriminalizing drugs cuts down on use and crime.. check out the stats for Portugal... They legalized everything in July 2001 and changed their drug expenditure towards helping addicts and blocking drugs from entering the country.

Massive drop in crime, massive drop in drug use and they save billions every year.

Overly conservative laws need reformed across the world in order to cut down on stupid expenditure and the incarceration of people who are not in any way criminals.

Times change, so should laws.. Unfortunately there is too much money to be made for people in power by the criminalization of specific things for them to allow the laws to be changed easily. Drugs are one obvious example.

Edit to add..

Of course rape figures will be down in a country where you pay 50 euro to have sex with beautiful women

Don't understand the reasons for the burglaries though.. not too well up on the Dutch social policies..

[edit on 24/5/09 by Dermo]

reply to post by Dermo


Well lets be clear, yes legalising drugs would massively reduce crime. If you did it properly you could even tax it, the same with prostitution. However this wouldn't account for the massively reducing crime rate in the netherlands.

It makes no sense at all to make marijuana and other drugs illegal, i agree with this. In the end what you choose to put into you rbody is up to you. I mean alcohol is more damaging than many drugs but we allow that, as are cigarettes.

However this thread isn't just about that. It is about a trend of most crimes in the netherlands being lower, it is about the attitude of a society towards crime and the fact that we can learn from other countries. I'm tired of the "we do it our way" idea. The UK could learn about trains from the Japanese or French, reducing crime rates from the netherlands and something as simple as dealing with road ice from the Swedes.

Why haven't we learnt that other countries can teach us things when they are better at dealing with them?

Originally posted by Dermo

Of course rape figures will be down in a country where you pay 50 euro to have sex with beautiful women

[edit on 24/5/09 by Dermo]

You edited this after i replied. Let me state that i have supported legalised prostitution for this very reason! Whilst many rapists commit crimes for the power they feel, others commit it out of sheer lack of sex. Some people are unable to control their urges and legalised prostitution would really help those people whilst providing an increased income via tax to the government.

Point being that clearing our prisons would be easy, and learning how to rehabilitate some criminals could also be easy. We may also learn ways of stopping people getting into crime if we learn from the Netherlands.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Why haven't we learnt that other countries can teach us things when they are better at dealing with them?

I actually had a conversation like that with a dutch couple the last time I was in Holland because I had heard something like this before.

They had lived in a number of other EU countries so had a pretty wide perspective - They were of the view that because many of their laws were more liberal than most, their personal attitudes towards actual crimes (robbery, assault, murder) were to view these things as a complete taboo in MORE sections of society than in other countries. Probably because they didn't have to deal with so many stupid laws that would completely numb the attitudes of less socially fortunate towards the legal system.

It makes sense if you think about it... and it comes back down to the "Blind Eye Policy" that decriminalizes certain drugs, prostitution etc and the knock on effect it has had on other aspects of society.

Obviously they still have crime but it seems that the new policies helped stem more than expected.

[edit on 24/5/09 by Dermo]

There's a few Dutch people on the site, if you can get this thread on the main page in 10 hours time, they will probably answer.. as far as i know its 1am in Holland at the mo.

Originally posted by Dermo
There's a few Dutch people on the site, if you can get this thread on the main page in 10 hours time, they will probably answer.. as far as i know its 1am in Holland at the mo.

Well it only gets there by flagging, starring and discussion I really do think we can learn things from other countries. We need to rocognise that some countries do things better than us and we can learn from them.

Not sure where you are from but I know for a fact that a lot of our laws in Ireland need reform for the my generation (24+). Pity politicians are so tied up in trying to get revotes in the next election that they dont have the balls to try make these controversial reforms.. no matter how much good it might do.
Ill join this again tomorrow - time for sleep - Starred and flagged btw

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


I hear what you're saying, and you bring up good points. Not sure if you live in US or not, but personally I don't think you can give the leniency of legalization here in America, as much as Europe.

Let's be honest. We don't know how to behave.
There won't be another woodstock, because we lit it on fire last time.
We're generally loud, and know to blow things out of proportion and party hardy.
College campuses across the nation will verify that.


Let's take alcohol for example. In Europe, there isn't any drinking age.
However it's "moderate."
Society doesn't abuse alcohol, like the states.
Can you imagine America with no drinking age?
I can't.

Cannabis on the other hand, different story. Medically proven to be beneficial to people with chronic diseases. Personally, I would promote it more than chemical based products, pills, etc.
Also, you can't overdose, and has never (in history) killed anyone.
Conservatively, it's being more aceepted. California is a great example.
Yet, DEA still raids the shops, even though they're "legally" open for business.
Even here in Colorado, (only city of Denver) cannabis is legal up to a certain amount.

(

Originally posted by Ben Niceknowinya

Society doesn't abuse alcohol, like the states.

You've obviously never gone drinking with anyone from Ireland or England then

Also, you are making a lot of assumptions there and many of them are incorrect..

1. There are Age limits for alcohol and they vary from country to country.. Ireland is 18, so is the UK, Spain is 16 etc.

2. Its incorrect to think you party harder than people from countries that had to legalize drugs because there was such a problem trying to control them that they just gave up because they would end up locking almost everyone up for drug abuse lol

3. Anytime I was in the states, I got the impression that ye think mainland Europeans have big sticks up their asses when it comes to going wild.. thats not very true. Some countries like to promote themselves as cultured when it comes to having fun.. The Mediterranean countries are an example of that.. But at the end of the day, people are people.

Have a good night.

Cant sleep, might as well waste another hour on this bloody site



[edit on 24/5/09 by Dermo]

Originally posted by Dermo
Not sure where you are from but I know for a fact that a lot of our laws in Ireland need reform for the my generation (24+). Pity politicians are so tied up in trying to get revotes in the next election that they dont have the balls to try make these controversial reforms.. no matter how much good it might do.
Ill join this again tomorrow - time for sleep - Starred and flagged btw

I'm in England, 23 (approaching 24) and my family on my fathers side is from southern Ireland. So i believe we have similar viewpoints. Have a good night.

Originally posted by Ben Niceknowinya
I hear what you're saying, and you bring up good points. Not sure if you live in US or not, but personally I don't think you can give the leniency of legalization here in America, as much as Europe.

England is where i am from.

Originally posted by Ben Niceknowinya
Let's be honest. We don't know how to behave.
There won't be another woodstock, because we lit it on fire last time.

We're generally loud, and know to blow things out of proportion and party hardy.
College campuses across the nation will verify that.

Well i hope people will realise that when a country does something better than you, gets results yo ucan learn from that country. Maybe in this specific circumstance we could learn from corporations.

Originally posted by Ben Niceknowinya
Let's take alcohol for example. In Europe, there isn't any drinking age.
However it's "moderate."
Society doesn't abuse alcohol, like the states.
Can you imagine America with no drinking age?
I can't.

Ok firstly there is a drinking age in countries in Europe. Europe isn't one country and each country has it's own age of legal drinking. We do however have some old laws in England which enable drinking at younger ages and other countries in Europe have these laws. That being that any age can drink outside of a legal drinking establishment. I've never abused alcohol, i put this down to my parents giving me small amounts from the age of 8 onwards. I learnt to drink sensibly from them.

Originally posted by Ben Niceknowinya
Cannabis on the other hand, different story. Medically proven to be beneficial to people with chronic diseases. Personally, I would promote it more than chemical based products, pills, etc.

Let's be fair. The chemical products you talk of are usually plant based. Paracetemol, Ibuprofen, Voltarol are all plant based. Cannabis however worls ona different and less understood system of pain relief in the body and i fully support it's medical use.

Originally posted by Ben Niceknowinya
Also, you can't overdose, and has never (in history) killed anyone.
Conservatively, it's being more aceepted. California is a great example.
Yet, DEA still raids the shops, even though they're "legally" open for business.
Even here in Colorado, (only city of Denver) cannabis is legal up to a certain amount.

(

Well i'd agree with that. Alcohol kills more people and causes more bad effects. From heart disease, liver disease, peripheral neuropathy, stroke and many other conditions alcohol is worse.

The Netherlands' crime rate is low because they have a passive approach to law. Too many arrests for a particular crime and they decriminalize it, not the greatest management technique.

I propose that with the sress-relieving aspects of the herb that is legal there, that this affects the crime rate.

I mean... If one does not feel desperate and stressed out....

Originally posted by secretagent woooman
The Netherlands' crime rate is low because they have a passive approach to law. Too many arrests for a particular crime and they decriminalize it, not the greatest management technique.

Thats a very generalized statement to make..

They dont have relaxed laws or a passive approach towards Murder, Rape, Robbery, burglary, Child abuse, assault.. the list goes on and on.

In my mind, having actual sensible laws across the board shows respect from the authorities towards citizens and can change peoples attitudes towards committing crime for the better. This, along with decent social policies for ensuring no one gets left behind in dire social circumstances can guarantee drops in 'actual' crimes across the board and raise overall happiness for a nations citizens.

As I said before, laws need to change with the times.. As people evolve, what they can handle responsibly are increased and laws should be changed to facilitate this.

reply to post by Amaterasu


Not a bad point but TBH, most Dutch I know don't avail of the herb.. another side effect of legalization.. once its legal, its no longer coveted.

Originally posted by secretagent woooman
The Netherlands' crime rate is low because they have a passive approach to law. Too many arrests for a particular crime and they decriminalize it, not the greatest management technique.

Was there another person on ATS called secretagent woman, or am i imagining that?

Your argument is slightly flawed. I linked the figures for murder, burglary and rape. some of the most common crimes in many countries and tehy were all lower in the netherlands. They were also lower in other countries but many of them were known for corruption so it is hard to judge it correctly. Others were lower and not corrupt but not in all areas.

Anyway point being your argument doesn't hold water. The figures for rape, burglary and murder are less in the netherlands, and i made sure to quote them per capita.

[edit on 24-5-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Originally posted by Dermo

Originally posted by Ben Niceknowinya

Society doesn't abuse alcohol, like the states.

You've obviously never gone drinking with anyone from Ireland or England then

Also, you are making a lot of assumptions there and many of them are incorrect..

1. There are Age limits for alcohol and they vary from country to country.. Ireland is 18, so is the UK, Spain is 16 etc.

2. Its incorrect to think you party harder than people from countries that had to legalize drugs because there was such a problem trying to control them that they just gave up because they would end up locking almost everyone up for drug abuse lol

3. Anytime I was in the states, I got the impression that ye think mainland Europeans have big sticks up their asses when it comes to going wild.. thats not very true. Some countries like to promote themselves as cultured when it comes to having fun.. The Mediterranean countries are an example of that.. But at the end of the day, people are people.

Have a good night.

Cant sleep, might as well waste another hour on this bloody site

[edit on 24/5/09 by Dermo]

Actually I have. Gotta say, I love getting drunk with Irish lads too.
I'm actually from Europe, originally. Italy, but born in Germany.
I guess I made an ass outta myself for not knowing the age limits.
I thought it was like 16.....everywhere.
Anyway....

Yeah......I wasn't trying to compare d*ck size either mate.
Relax there Chucky Norris.
I was trying to make a point that Europeans (in general) are alot more moderate than Americans.
Not just drinking. We "misbehave" more in general.

My point is that you CANNOT lower the drinking age here in the states.
The consequences wouldn't be worth it.
Drugs? Well, "giving up" really doesn't solve anything, does it?
I will say that Europe certainly has better programs for drug addicts, where ashere (good point) they get tossed in jail.
Drug users, unfortuanetaly suffer greater consequences here in America.
Before legalizing anything, it's important to get programs as such available. Yes?


Not sure about "impressions" &sticks up people's asses, I don't see how that's relevant.......but atleast we know what's on your mind now...
Fun is fun. Every culture.


But (OP) aside from prostitution, what are some things you would want to legalize?
Thnx.

Originally posted by Dermo
reply to post by Amaterasu

 

Not a bad point but TBH, most Dutch I know don't avail of the herb.. another side effect of legalization.. once its legal, its no longer coveted.

But then... Are the ones you know ones who are desperate? Stressed out? To the point that they might rob another?

I bet it is more prevalent in use amongst the ones who are stressed out.

Here the netherlands has less murder per capita than the UK or USA

Define murder, In the US it covers everything if a criminal get shot while doing a hold up its listed on the national database as he was murdered
same for a drug dealer shooting another drug dealer.
or a cop shooting a criminal.

Over 60 % of the "murders" in the US are not murders.
they are self defence or other types of killings and no big loss to society as a whole. and in many cases they benefit society by getting rid of the undesirable criminals without having to jail them for long periods.

In the UK or Netherlands where they have limited right of self defence you will have less murders but many more criminals on the street.

[edit on 24-5-2009 by ANNED]

Originally posted by Ben Niceknowinya
Drugs? Well, "giving up" really doesn't solve anything, does it?

Wow. Define "giving up." As in, stop persecuting some people for using some drugs (while pushing others - REALLY pushing!)?

Yes, legalization would solve a HUGE number of issues in society.

Before legalizing anything, it's important to get programs as such available. Yes?

Um... There are already many such programs. You think that continued persecution, damaging lives, ripping functional families apart, police corruption, gang wars, adulterated product, and so on - all issues of the War on (some people who use some) Drugs - should continue until you are sure we have enough programs in place?

Believe me, we have plenty already.