POLI: Crime - What Are The Netherlands Doing Right?

Originally posted by Ben Niceknowinya

Yeah......I wasn't trying to compare d*ck size either mate.

Relax there Chucky Norris.
I was trying to make a point that Europeans (in general) are alot more moderate than Americans.
Not just drinking. We "misbehave" more in general.

However i, the OP am from the UK and i can tell you right now that our prisons are overflowing. So despite being in Europe we could learna great deal from the netherlands.

Originally posted by Ben Niceknowinya
My point is that you CANNOT lower the drinking age here in the states.
The consequences wouldn't be worth it.

In the UK we havea drinking age of 18 and many would like it to be 21 (including myself). However we are talking about rates of imprisonment. Few people get imprisoned over underage drinking.

Originally posted by Ben Niceknowinya
Drugs? Well, "giving up" really doesn't solve anything, does it?
I will say that Europe certainly has better programs for drug addicts, where ashere (good point) they get tossed in jail.

Well in all truth the drug addicts are usually let off in the UK. People think they aren't but they usualy are. Dealers on the other hand get small sentences and some get long ones. Legalisation woudl free up tons of places and if we taxed it then corporations could provide drugs at cheaper rates, with a safer product and generally things would be better.

Originally posted by Ben Niceknowinya
Drug users, unfortuanetaly suffer greater consequences here in America.
Before legalizing anything, it's important to get programs as such available. Yes?

No. Get it legalised whilst providing programs to help addicts. Many addicts commit crimes and are underground because it is illegal. Don't get me wrong here, heroine and other drugs are truly horrible but if it were legalised we may be able to set up the drug clinics they have in places like Sweden. You know there that drug addicts can get clean needles for free, and even take drugs on their premises so if they overdose they can be treated?

The clean needles reduce rates of infection with diseases like HIV which end up costing us money here in the UK and if it were all legal the chances of overdose would be far less as we'd have a standardised product. Drug addicts may also be easier to treat as they would fear prosecution less.

Originally posted by Ben Niceknowinya
Not sure about "impressions" &sticks up people's asses, I don't see how that's relevant.......but atleast we know what's on your mind now...
Fun is fun. Every culture.


But (OP) aside from prostitution, what are some things you would want to legalize?
Thnx.

I said at the start, drugs and prostitution would be a very good start. Beyond this i can't think of much. However you missed the most important point. I said we could learn from the netherlands about social structure. They have less burglary, murder and rape. Something is obviously different there. Including rehabilitation. I don't think every criminal can be rehabilitated of course, i'm not a wet liberal But many get convicted of one crime and then think they're stuck with a criminal life.

Originally posted by ANNED
In the UK or Netherlands where they have limited right of self defence you will have less murders but many more criminals on the street.

Sorry but this shows ignorance of foreign laws. In the UK the murder rate includes self defense. It's actually a point of contention in some circles. I prescribe to the idea that if it's self defense it isn't murder, unless you go overboard. By that i mean you have defeated your attacker and then continue to kick them to death.

You would put many law enforcement people out of work if you were to legalize drugs in the US. Thats includes prisons as well. Make things illegal and you require more people which means more jobs. Stupid I know.

Originally posted by Brothers
You would put many law enforcement people out of work if you were to legalize drugs in the US. Thats includes prisons as well. Make things illegal and you require more people which means more jobs. Stupid I know.

By that logic we should make everything illegal and have complete emplyment! The people will find other jobs. In fact if we legalised drugs and prostitution we'd need accountants and monitors of the prostitues so it'd be a pretty even thing and may even create jobs.

Take prostitution. We'd need people to monitor legal brothels, people to prosecute illegal brothels and street walkers more aggressively. We'd need people to screen prostitutes for infections, security to make sure the brothel workers were safe (both male and female), people to grant brothel licenses and licenses to individual prostitutes.

Basically the jobs would switch, not be reduced. No one would be put out of work, just retrained.

LOL well for starters it is 80% ethnic Dutch, and overall about 95% Northern European.

But no worries, if their immigration policies change then their crime rates will change too.

Originally posted by Amaterasu

Originally posted by Ben Niceknowinya
Drugs? Well, "giving up" really doesn't solve anything, does it?

Wow. Define "giving up." As in, stop persecuting some people for using some drugs (while pushing others - REALLY pushing!)?

Yes, legalization would solve a HUGE number of issues in society.

Before legalizing anything, it's important to get programs as such available. Yes?

Um... There are already many such programs. You think that continued persecution, damaging lives, ripping functional families apart, police corruption, gang wars, adulterated product, and so on - all issues of the War on (some people who use some) Drugs - should continue until you are sure we have enough programs in place?

Believe me, we have plenty already.

LEGALIZING what?????? Crack, heroin? What???


This is where I'm trying to go with this discussion. Sorry.

And Wrong, they don't exist really. Yes programs do exist, and they also cost a sh*load of money.
They're not free. If there are any, they're very, very rare.
BTW, no insurance covers programs. See what I mean?
The free programs are detoxes. That's about it.
Usually, the courts send you, because some people can't kick their habits, and their habits make them do bad things.....robberies, homicides, gang activity etc.
You're getting way off subject with that last paragraph. Not sure how to respond, cuz it's all over the place. I'll respectfully do my best.

MY answer is Yes. Programs are necessary.
If you legalize a drug, then it becomes an epidemic, then what?
Must I remind you that the US consumes BY FAR more drugs than any other place on the planet?
Where do you think drug cartels make most of their moeny?
This is why I'm saying (drugs)it's a MUCH MUCH bigger problem in America.

Not only that. The programs will most likely be state/gvt whatever (if it's free) that means tax dollars will be used for these programs.
Are you willing to pay MORE taxes, because you feel bad for a junky?
I know that's harsh, but reality, you're not helping them by allowing people to boot heroin on the corner. (like Amsterdam) because it's legal.
Yet, Amsterdam even provides clean needles for addicts, to help lower rate off AIDS etc. Apparantly, European cities (countries) thought programs would help in legalizations etc.

Harlem in the 70's is a good examaple.

You're proving my point with your statement, btw.
Drugs can shatter lives, families etc, so why would you want to legalize something if it has already done significant damage, without having necessary programs in place to actually help the addicts, opposed to a stiff jail sentence?

It's like drilling a hole in water.

Originally posted by Sonya610
LOL well for starters it is 80% ethnic Dutch, and overall about 95% Northern European.

But no worries, if their immigration policies change then their crime rates will change too.

Forgive me Sonya, i don't want to speculate what you meant by this so please clarify. Sorry to ask but i don't want to say what i think you mean when i'm not absolutely sure.

Cheers.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984Forgive me Sonya, i don't want to speculate what you meant by this so please clarify. Sorry to ask but i don't want to say what i think you mean when i'm not absolutely sure.

Oh I think my meaning was pretty clear. I won't elaborate; let's just say I don't care about appearing PC but I try to be somewhat respectful of the site rules.

[edit on 24-5-2009 by Sonya610]

Originally posted by Sonya610
Oh I think my meaning was pretty clear. I won't elaborate; let's just say I don't care about appearing PC but I try to be somewhat respectful of the site rules.

Well i won't comment on what you said unless you elaborate. Doing so may be speculation and i don't like to speculate, unlike you Sonya.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984




I aprreciate and value your responses. Thank you.

And you know what? You're right. Maybe, just maybe we (USA) can also learn from the Netherlands. Good point. But it's going to take work, and most of all EFFORT.

We consume more drugs (in US) than anybody, so the challenge is much much greater. Espeicallu with a population over 300,000,000.


As for the drinking age. I think they've considered it many times here, but 21 seems to be the right number.


Back to the drugs topic. (yet again thanx for great response) UK defintaly does a better job in the courts than the US. We fail miserably. Dealers caught with ounces and more (which should land you right in jail) end up making bail, getting outta jail right away, AND ability to afford legal represantation to get them off the hook in the end, because they can afford it.

I'm also glad someone agrees with me on the importance of having programs for addicts. You made a good example with Sweden.
They do a good job in not only having tese programs available, and also the distribution of siringes (to lower Aids, etc) but a really good job in REHABILITATING! And that's the importance. Rehabilitating.
Afterall, what good does legalization serve if you can't rehabilitate soomeone in the first place. You're not helping anyoone, or society for that matter. Again, good point.

My point is that it's much more difficult of a challenge in America.

Hopefully we can learn, and more importantly give good, honest effort for better change.

Weed and Hasj should be totally legalized[same with mushrooms and xtc], the growing and supplying to shops is still illegal here, its ridiculous.Not only would that crime circuit vanish, police have better things to do and the State could make millions if not billions out of taxation..I think most crimes are relatively small violations and [am sorry to say it] are mostly done by ethnic groups like the Moroccan population, little brats "terrorizing" the streets hanging around doing nothing..Education is important and creating jobs for them... I dont think most Dutch have the feeling that crimes are so low here, since the murders on Pim Fortuyn and Theo van Gogh tension is rising between the Dutch and Moroccan people, the far right [antimuslim]party PVV is the biggest here[but elections are in 2011 so they're still in opposition], but right now its pretty calm again.., ..Most people really think we have to crack down on those "street terrorists" as we call them, and putting them into re-education camps, building their personalities bottom up from scratch.Penalties are pretty low here..If you would ask me some may also get a lobotomy and might still work in the supermarket packing all my groceries at the cashier .. But really i think education and jobs are most important, not social security, makes them lazy and some penalties specially for recidivists should be a lot higher...

I wonder how Denmark is doing, they have a lot of similarities with the Dutch and i think their immigration law is better/tighter..

Heard that about Belgium too, they're gonna company us in our prisons ... for the record, the prisoncells here have t.v with pay-per view moviechannel[serious].. so you might think they're all stocked with tramps but no they get their methadon for free in other special places





[edit on 24-5-2009 by Foppezao]

Originally posted by Brothers
You would put many law enforcement people out of work if you were to legalize drugs in the US. Thats includes prisons as well. Make things illegal and you require more people which means more jobs. Stupid I know.

Very stupid. Any who use jobs as justification to intrude on others' lives, incarcerate others, break up families, destroy lives, promote police corruption, accept gang wars, adulterated product, and so on...is one evil f#.

Perhaps theirs is just a lopsided perspective in the Netherlands. If you don't call it a crime, then it's not a crime — hence, "lower crime rate." I'd be willing to bet that there is an abundance of unreported crime in the Netherlands, because of the overly-liberal attitude toward "crime"

— Doc Velocity

reply to post by Foppezao


we have been legalizing Cannabis. No?

I just moved to Colorado, and the city of Denver allows up to an ounce.
If you're blazing up in a playground or something it's a different story.


Another thing I just thought of is that there are valuable or credible organizations (etc.) making legitimate efforts in legalizing cannabis. Then there are jer*offs who just want attention.
And want to do whatever they want, wherever they want, whenever they want.
I was watching a Cannabis Cup documentary and they were talking of how there's hundreds of "open" shops in California, today.
DEA (yet) still acts by unlawful raids. If it's (Californina state) legal, and the only way to attain the cannabis is through a (gvt. issued) license, then why are they kicking down doors, taking all the merchandise?
Anyway, back to my point. They showed (excuse my generalization) a hippy, long dreads, just really dirty appearance, with a pot (with a 3 ft. pot plant in the pot) smoking a fatty, infront of the court house.Yes.
Okay, this is where I have a problem. Yes. You've eraned the right. But why, I mean, WHY is that necessary?
I would promote the legalization strictly for medical purposes and benefits.
Especially terminally ill patients, chronic diseases etc.
Not for bums like this guy.
As I mentioned, there is legitimate efforts by doctors and such doing their best to pass legislation to show the valuable, and porfitable I might add, benefits of marijuana.
To me, actions like smoking on the court house stairs, in broad daylight,
infront of everybody, is disrepectful to the people promoting it for the right reasons.
What's the point?
I know every time I go to Europe I love going to Switzerland, where it is legal as well. More strict than the Netherlands, but infact legal. Coffee shops, etc.
But in Zurich, there's a designated area where everyone smokes it, and you can also purchase it. (shoreline of the lake)
See, it's being respectful.
You're not violating anyone. You're NOT exposing it to children (which is a biggy with me), or making people around you uncomfortable for that matter.
If there is something (as a society) we need to learn say from other countries, this should be an "initial" approach.
(hence we misbehave)
It takes a legitimate effort from both the law, and (accordingly) a society!
Then make efforts for programs. Because they ARE important.



Peace.





[edit on 24-5-2009 by Ben Niceknowinya]

Originally posted by Doc Velocity
Perhaps theirs is just a lopsided perspective in the Netherlands. If you don't call it a crime, then it's not a crime — hence, "lower crime rate." I'd be willing to bet that there is an abundance of unreported crime in the Netherlands, because of the overly-liberal attitude toward "crime"

— Doc Velocity

Well i quoted statistics. I know you are good with your argument doc, i know you quote studies and other such things. As you can see i quoted some in the original post, could you provide evidence for your claims please?

Obviously they have the same views on the major crimes, rape, murder, burglary and many others. I quoted those three but the website i linked has even more. Point being that this cannot be simply written off as liberal views to crime. The fact that their rates of imprisonment have gone down dramatically when their laws have remained mostly the same says a great deal. We're not talking about a slightly shift, we're talking a steady decrease over years.

Could we therefore not learn something from them? Either in he area of rehabiliation or punishment or both?

Originally posted by Amaterasu
Any who use jobs as justification to intrude on others' lives, incarcerate others, break up families, destroy lives, promote police corruption, accept gang wars, adulterated product, and so on...is one evil f#.

And anyone who blithely believes that drug use doesn't inhibit the user's judgment and ability to distinguish between right and wrong, doesn't intrude on others' lives, doesn't break up families, and doesn't destroy lives is a complete moron who refuses to see (or isn't able to see) these tragedies happening every day in the real world.

— Doc Velocity

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
As you can see i quoted some in the original post, could you provide evidence for your claims please?

I made no claims. I said I was willing to bet that there is an abundance of unreported crime in the Netherlands. How do you provide evidence of unreported crime? If you figure that out, we can further discuss the terms of my wager.

— Doc Velocity

Originally posted by Doc Velocity
And anyone who blithely believes that drug use doesn't inhibit the user's judgment and ability to distinguish between right and wrong, doesn't intrude on others' lives, doesn't break up families, and doesn't destroy lives is a complete moron who refuses to see (or isn't able to see) these tragedies happening every day in the real world.

— Doc Velocity

I don't want this to turn into a drugs debate thread. The topic if crime rates and what we can learn from another country. Please don't take this down the road of drugs, i ask you both not to as it could end up getting this locked. We can talk about liberal laws in regards to drugs, but please don't go into more detail than that.

Point being, the netherlands has lower crime rates and is actively shutting down prisons. This isn't because they suddenly decrimalized things, it is because their society seems to have a good structure, or a good rehabilitation program. Either way we could learn something from them.

Originally posted by Doc Velocity
I made no claims. I said I was willing to bet that there is an abundance of unreported crime in the Netherlands. How do you provide evidence of unreported crime? If you figure that out, we can further discuss the terms of my wager.

— Doc Velocity

If it is nothing more than a wager then it has no place ina serious discussion. Please don't take that the wrong way.

Netherlands unemploment rate is 4.6%. This includes those who consider themselves underemployed. Every employee also gets a written contract. To break the contract you need state approval.

Every citizen is required to have health insurance at the rate of $125 month. Includes dental to age 18 and major work after 18.

They do not throw people in jail for crimes only committed to themselves.


Jobs, health care and freedom make the world a better place.