POLI: Crime - What Are The Netherlands Doing Right?

Originally posted by GerhardPegel
And I believe that the OP needs to split the amount of crimes in two different groups. A group of people who work 40 hours (or more) a week and a group of people who do not work at all.

And I think that the crime rate is much higher in the group of people who do not work because those people really do have the time to do things against the law.

There are no figures i can find that give these details. The crimes were quoted per capita for the population as a whole. That is a pretty standard way of measuring crime. If we did it your way then we would not have accurate crime statistics, what you are proposing sounds very like a politicaians way of fudging the figures.

it seems the original poster is missing the point.here in the states we do not, by virtue of our policies, want to radically reduce crime.Too many Americans depend upon a high crime rate for their daily bread.So, while the Netherlands just may be right , and their policies do result in a lower crime rate, we will never see those policies enacted here in the USA because of the money problem, specifically the problem that many people are getting rich off of the high crime rate, and these people have too much influence on deciding what is a crime and how it is punished.Here in my home state of Arizona a law was put into effect 2 years ago that allowed a police officer to jail a person for driving without insurance, and allowed the law to impound the vehicle for 30 days for that infraction as well.This would cost at least 1500 dollars to get the vehicle out of impound.my point is that too many people are making money to do anything to ease the burden of this all out war on drugs and crime.

reply to post by glevel


YEPPER, EXACTLY!

It is getting to be that there are so many laws in the U.S. that everyone is a criminal. A big part of our problem is that crime pays very well for the judges, lawyers, police, and all the bureaucrats behind them. For a long time now, making a mistake has come to be considered criminal activity, and the penalties just keep getting steeper. What is really bad, is that as the boomers age, chances are that this will get to be an even worse problem.

If people really want to see reduced size of government, getting rid of all of these prohibition crimes would be the best and easiest way of reducing the size of government, and at the same time decreasing crime and criminal activity. When drugs and prostitution are illegal, they become revenue sources for criminals, and the result is increased crime, not only for drugs and prostitution, but also now for turf between competing criminal gangs for said revenue.

The state of CA is going bankrupt, yet they are asking for a 10% increase in the budget for the Judiciary even though crime rates are decreasing. Why?

I would think that the crime rate is inversely proportionate to the intelligence of a nation. They have less crime because they are better people, reproducing better people, ones with high morals and intelligence. They have evolved this way from many different factors.

I've frequented the Netherlands for over a decade now, with weekly trips just across the border.

I think the famous Dutch tolerance is seeing it's final days..

More and more, radical politicians like Geert Wilders and that bald guy who got killed have a firm grip on the mindset of the goverment.

under new regulations, a lot of coffeeshops had to close down, and there are plans to instate a program where you would be required by law to obtain a pass where they fingerprint you and file you in their archives.

They claim those records are 'for the coffeeshopholders only', but can you imagine the potential misuse of such a database if those data would find their way to.. say.. the ATF ?

By the way, it must be that Holland has a good record on crimefighting, because they have an overcapacity of jails.. which Belgium is wanting to fill up with their surplus of victims from over-aged laws who outlived their usefulnes in today's society..

Hi,

After a long time reader I registered and this is my first post.

I'm a Dutch citizen, and after reading the thread, most of it, I must say, that the OP and much responses arent correct, altouhg the Dutch reactions hit the nail mostly on the head.

What currently is going on in the Netherlands, is mostly dictated by the EU. The recently activities of the law against some herb shops, i.e. coffeeshops without coffee, are EU dictated. The liberal stand for many years had to be in line with the rest of the European countries, and since the current and previous governments (cabinets) loved to be a part of the EU madness, they obey and change the climate.

So, thats one item. The crime rate is another one. I want to know what is the rate? statistics? reported crimes? actual arrests? thats the problem. In the Netherlands you will happy ever after when you kill someone, but performing a tax or other financial crime may cause you the be stripped down, long jail, and never ever get the opportunity to start over again.
Financial crimes are the worst here it seems.. dont touch the money!

Then, the police force seems to be rather weak and stupid. Recently a study showed that a German province solved twice as much crimes with half the police force. (it was a comparable province size to the Netherlands.)

The last years after the political assination of Pim Fortuyn, (remarkably was by the way that he was killed at 18:03 and about 10 minuts later our Interiour Minister Klaas De Vries already told on TV it was a one man action!) the climate is changing. After red wing (socialsts) people finally couldnt look away, and got confronted the immigrant crimes and second generation immigrant street terror, the call for more punishment is growing.

On the other hand, not everything here is punished. You can drink a cold beer on a terras (terrace?) at the street at the local pub, something I couldnt do in the US when I was there some years ago,

Finally I can tell you more, but then you need to ask me more specific questions.

And NOT willing to change the OP subject: how on earth is it possible that there are gangs and all sorts in US prisons? After seeing docu's on Discovery it looks like the US is very strickt outside the jail, but let them do what they want inside..completly puzzled..

Originally posted by VonDutch
I'm a Dutch citizen, and after reading the thread, most of it, I must say, that the OP and much responses arent correct, altouhg the Dutch reactions hit the nail mostly on the head.

Thanks for replying. I must ask a simple question, the figures quoted were for prosecutions of rape, murder and burglary. Are you saying your country doesn't prosecute these?

What is also interesting on that website is the "perception of safety" where your country comes 5th. So for the Dutch people who posted here i wonder if you are in the minority of your country, thinking the crime is terrible. I obviously have to bow to you knowing more as you are from that country, however the figures seem pretty clear. I am not saying it's a perfect country, but it's better than most in regards to the three crimes quoted.

Lets remember that every country tries to fudge their figures to make them look less so the figures are still accurate for comparison.

Originally posted by VonDutch
So, thats one item. The crime rate is another one. I want to know what is the rate? statistics? reported crimes? actual arrests? thats the problem. In the Netherlands you will happy ever after when you kill someone, but performing a tax or other financial crime may cause you the be stripped down, long jail, and never ever get the opportunity to start over again.
Financial crimes are the worst here it seems.. dont touch the money!

The figures are all there on the website i linked for you. What i find most strange is that it says 82% perceive walking in the dark as safe, yet only 52% have any faith in the police.

Originally posted by Phatcat
I think the famous Dutch tolerance is seeing it's final days..

Huhh??

More and more, radical politicians like Geert Wilders and that bald guy who got killed have a firm grip on the mindset of the goverment.

Geert Wilders is a joke and nothing new. We've had this joker Hans Janmaat and his centre democrats in the 80's and 90's. He had a lot of racist viewpoints and blew up a lot of dust but every time he lost in the elections. (just like Wilders will).
The beauty of a tolerant society is that people like Wilders have every right to say what they want to say.....

under new regulations, a lot of coffeeshops had to close down, and there are plans to instate a program where you would be required by law to obtain a pass where they fingerprint you and file you in their archives.

Again, huhhhh??? Are you talking about the TWO coffeeshops in Roosendaal and Goes that closed down because of the belgium drug tourists?? And the "weedpass", well that's only for the Limburg (south of Holland) district also because of the thousands of drug tourist from abroad that cause a lot of trouble here and in their own country.
Don't forget we get a lot of heat from neighboring countries about our drugs policy.

By the way, it must be that Holland has a good record on crimefighting, because they have an overcapacity of jails.. which Belgium is wanting to fill up with their surplus of victims from over-aged laws who outlived their usefulnes in today's society..

My uncle ( Rene van den Berg ) made 125 million euro's disappear with pyramide trading (don't know the American term for this) ,he got arrested and had to do 4 years including time already spend in jail during the trail. So after 2,5 years of jail he's out and free to do as he pleases.....
Maybe this is the reason why our jails aren't full....

reply to post by operation mindcrime


4 years in prison is actually a kind of long time, imo. Maybe i'm just not cut out for a life of crime

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


In America when a police officer says "STOP", you stop!!

In Holland their seems to be a lack of respect for the law inforcers. Yesterday we've had a test trail in which they tried to get offenders that attacked a police officer to get an automatic double punishment.
The judge didn't go along with it because in automaticly doubling the punishment when a police officer or other public figure is attacked they are given a different status within the law and that doesn't sit well with dutch sentiment of equality. Everybody is equal and nobody is better than anybody else!!!
It is getting a little out of hand here lately with ambulance personel and firefighters being attacked when responding to an emergency but that's nothing a little solidarity ,public outcry and silent marches won't fix....

Peace

Originally posted by Kaytagg
reply to post by operation mindcrime

 

4 years in prison is actually a kind of long time, imo. Maybe i'm just not cut out for a life of crime

4 years of American prison might be a long time but 4 years of dutch prison just about gives you enough time to finaly finish that college education or to work on you're poker skills.....

Peace

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
reply to post by Dermo

 

Well lets be clear, yes legalising drugs would massively reduce crime. If you did it properly you could even tax it, the same with prostitution. However this wouldn't account for the massively reducing crime rate in the netherlands.

It makes no sense at all to make marijuana and other drugs illegal, i agree with this. In the end what you choose to put into you rbody is up to you. I mean alcohol is more damaging than many drugs but we allow that, as are cigarettes.

However this thread isn't just about that. It is about a trend of most crimes in the netherlands being lower, it is about the attitude of a society towards crime and the fact that we can learn from other countries. I'm tired of the "we do it our way" idea. The UK could learn about trains from the Japanese or French, reducing crime rates from the netherlands and something as simple as dealing with road ice from the Swedes.

Why haven't we learnt that other countries can teach us things when they are better at dealing with them?

because the wealthy and powerful benefit from these laws...if they didn't they would be changed...it's all about the money, when are people going to realize this. when you start to think in this way whenever something does not appear to be right, it becomes clear. become a critical thinker.

[edit on 27-5-2009 by jimmyx]

Originally posted by justsomeboreddude
reply to post by TheBandit795

 

Yeah just the criminals...and crime solved.

No, not all criminals use (soft)drugs. We are allowed to use and have softdrugs (a certain amount) but that freedom is not abused in excess at all. Sure, you have people who use/take to much, but that goes for every other available product (food, drinks etc.) as well.

It's funny how lots of people have an opinion about our country, but most of them dont even know where the hell it is. Let alone judge our politics and laws.

reply to post by operation mindcrime


Pyramide trading = Ponzi scheme.

And I really hope Geert Wilders loses like you say. If he was a U.S. citizen, he would probably join the KKK.

Originally posted by TheBandit795
reply to post by operation mindcrime

 

Pyramide trading = Ponzi scheme.

And I really hope Geert Wilders loses like you say. If he was a U.S. citizen, he would probably join the KKK.

So what is your opinion about (extremist) moslims who are dancing and cheering when a politician is killed or when for example the WTC collapsed? We are talking about people who have no honor for the country they life in and their laws. But at the same time want to enjoy the freedom they have in that same country.

[edit on 27/5/2009 by Cygnific]

reply to post by Cygnific


I wasn't talking about them. I was talking about Geert Wilders. He wants to kick Aruba and the Netherlands Antilles out of the Dutch Kingdom, which by international treaty is not possible. Which shows that he does not know much about law.

The government actually cares about the people in the Netherlands that's why. They don't pretend to care for PR points, like oh let's say America, The UK, Israel or Australia.

A more caring government, means more agreeable laws, less stressful populous, happier populous... This all adds up to make for a better living environment overall.

People who have been treated well, will find it a lot harder to hurt others. As opposed to a populous that has been abused by their governments in the name of money,power, and control. Simple as that.

reply to post by sliceNodice


Why is it that I so often hear conflicting stories about the Dutch government between Dutch people and foreigners (especially U.S. citizens)?

The Dutch complain a lot about the government not caring about them, but only about how to tax and fine them. We used to make jokes about how the government is trying to figure out a way on how to tax us for breathing and for the sun shining.

What I think is contributing to the so called "less crime" is the mentality of mediocrity. There's a Dutch saying: "Doe man gewoon, dan doe je gek genoeg" (Act normal, then you're already acting crazy enough). It's keeping people in line, afraid of what others might think if they do something against the norm (which would also include some crimes) and it encourages shame. With at a result, people often play it safe and do nothing out of the ordinary, or if they can't handle it anymore, they flip and act out in ways that completely defy the norm (like the guy I once saw walking around in women's lingerie one day in A'dam.. on a cold day) or breaks the law (the guy who tried to assassinate the Queen last month by attempting to hit the bus carrying the royals with his car).

So IMO this mentality lessens crime by keeping the majority in line, but still causes some (a minority) to go nuts.

[edit on 27-5-2009 by TheBandit795]

Originally posted by TheBandit795
reply to post by operation mindcrime

 

Pyramide trading = Ponzi scheme.

Yeah, thanx that's the term i was looking for.....

Originally posted by Cygnific
So what is your opinion about (extremist) moslims who are dancing and cheering when a politician is killed or when for example the WTC collapsed? We are talking about people who have no honor for the country they life in and their laws. But at the same time want to enjoy the freedom they have in that same country.
[edit on 27/5/2009 by Cygnific]

Hmmmm....yes that is a bit weird for people to be doing that but are we talking about the entire muslim world cheering and dancing when such events take place or a small group of intellectually impaired individuals who can't see past their own perspective. Which ,if i may add, are equally represented on the other side of the spectrum......

Originally posted by sliceNodice
The government actually cares about the people in the Netherlands that's why. They don't pretend to care for PR points, like oh let's say America, The UK, Israel or Australia.

It is true that the goverment cares about the people here in Holland but it is not completly out of their own good will that they do this.....

Taken from "the undutchables"

They also seem to be caught up in the cycle of endless envy. They cannot free themselves from feelings such as, "If you are sitting, then I should be sitting, too!" They are extremely jealous of each another's possessions and keep a constantly updated mental inventory of what their neighbours, relatives and colleagues have.

A dumb book with a lot of half truths but i think this sentence "If you are sitting, then I should be sitting, too!" hits the spot. It's not so much the envy as it is the extreme longing for equality. And when our sence of justice or equality comes into question then it doesn't take a lot to get the entire popualtion mobilized and fix the problem....(if needed replace the goverment)......

A more caring government, means more agreeable laws, less stressful populous, happier populous... This all adds up to make for a better living environment overall.

People who have been treated well, will find it a lot harder to hurt others. As opposed to a populous that has been abused by their governments in the name of money,power, and control. Simple as that.

Agreed 100%......

Peace