POLI: Crime - What Are The Netherlands Doing Right?

Very well, I'll avoid making nebulous wagers and unsubstantiated "claims"...

From my modest research, I see that while the "crime rate" in the Netherlands is low, comparatively speaking, the criminal penalties — for, say, drug trafficking — can be and are much more severe than for similar crimes in the United States. Those convicted of drug trafficking and possessing "illegal drugs" (whatever that means in the Netherlands) can expect harsh and lengthy prison time, even by American standards. I take from the U.S. Department of State:

Crime & Criminal Penalties in The Netherlands

So, it sounds like the promise of severe punishment has a lot to do with the low crime rate. Perhaps we can borrow that lesson from the Netherlands, yes? Perhaps America needs to provide much more severe penalties for similar crimes.

Additionally, there are frequent robberies, thefts and confidence scams committed against tourists to the Netherlands — many of these crimes have involved the perpetrators first drugging the victims in public venues (hotel bars and nightclubs), which sounds incredibly dangerous to me.

Tourists to the Netherlands are also warned to avoid the frequent street demonstrations, which can turn violent on a moment's notice, in spite of police presence.

To top it off, the Dutch government observes a standing terrorist threat level of "Substantial," which is the second-highest level on their 4-tiered scale of terrorist alert. The Netherlands' open borders with other EU countries allow suspected terrorist groups and operatives easy access to and exit from the country. Hmm, do you think maybe they should lock down their borders, or would that be too much like learning a lesson from America?

So. While the domestic crime rate may be reported as "low," it seems that public security is quite a problem in the Netherlands, such that it's not quite as idyllic a society as some would lead you to believe.



— Doc Velocity






[edit on 5/25/2009 by Doc Velocity]

Originally posted by Doc Velocity

Originally posted by Amaterasu
Any who use jobs as justification to intrude on others' lives, incarcerate others, break up families, destroy lives, promote police corruption, accept gang wars, adulterated product, and so on...is one evil f#.

And anyone who blithely believes that drug use doesn't inhibit the user's judgment and ability to distinguish between right and wrong, doesn't intrude on others' lives, doesn't break up families, and doesn't destroy lives is a complete moron who refuses to see (or isn't able to see) these tragedies happening every day in the real world.

— Doc Velocity

Hahahahahahaha! Which drug? I can assure you, with Portugal, Netherlands, and California all as examples of (relatively) free use of an herb that crime has dropped (though not statistically significantly in CA, it has dropped a little).

Being aware of many users, I can say for sure that they become calmer, more loving, and DON'T have issues with inhibited judgment, nor an inability to distinguish right from wrong. Drug use only creates the intrusion, and other issues where it is illegal.

Or the issues spring from the costs - which are artificially high in the black market.

You clearly don't understand that these "tragedies happening every day in the real world" are CAUSED by prohibition.

[edit on 5/25/2009 by Amaterasu]

You're a pieca work Amaterasu. Really.
First you mocked programs, which you said "there's plenty of" and how not important they are....blah blah blah......

Now you want to mock Doc Velocity for adding his input, or opinion?
I actually find his thoughts to be relative to this debate.
Even if they differ from yours....and mine.
Where's your etiquettes, hu?
First off, after re-reading your posts it seems like you just pull thoughts and comment outta thin air. Literally.
You have no idea what you're talking about. No offense. You have yet provided any links, evidence, sources of any sort to back up your ludicrous claims.

Hahahahahahaha! Which drug? I can assure you, with Portugal, Netherlands, and California all as examples of (relatively) free use of an herb that crime has dropped (though not statistically significantly in CA, it has dropped a little).

Umm, after doing a quick search, again you're way off.
First off you should understand drug related crimes more:
www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov...

Incarcation rates:

Being aware of many users, I can say for sure that they become calmer, more loving, and DON'T have issues with inhibited judgment, nor an inability to distinguish right from wrong. Drug use only creates the intrusion, and other issues where it is illegal.

What a joke. Can you back that up with medical evidence?
Didn't think so.
Or how about people who take drugs and commit violent offenses?
You want to add that to the equation? Have you????
Or are you just beat boxing....AGAIN]
*yawns*
I'm guessing (according to that statement) it would be okay with you if pilots, air-traffick control tower personnel, bus drivers, etc etc....to say not be drug tested?
So, you're ALSO convinced that becasue drugs are "illegal", it exlpains (get this) our highEST crime rate?



Okay, one question for you. In your opinion what contributes more to crime, poverty? Or Drugs?
Get the picture.

Or the issues spring from the costs - which are artificially high in the black market.

Again, source please.

Whatever that means.........in ......any.....way...

You clearly don't understand that these "tragedies happening every day in the real world" are CAUSED by prohibition.

I don't even know how to comment on that statement.


So your argument, is to legalize drugs, to reduce crime?
And tragedies?

Good luck with that.


[edit on 25-5-2009 by Ben Niceknowinya]

Originally posted by Amaterasu
You clearly don't understand that these "tragedies happening every day in the real world" are CAUSED by prohibition.

Not at all. I'm talking about illegal drugs such as coke, crack, heroin, home-brew methamphetamine, as well as legal, over-the-counter substances such as alcohol and dextromethorphan. None of these drugs contribute to a happy, tranquil and healthy life. On the contrary, I've seen many, many lives completely wasted through regular use and abuse of these poisons. I've never seen anyone strung out on any of this crap become a "better person" for having used it; in fact, I hate to recall the number of people I've known who have died from using — there are so many.

Although I've been sober for decades, as a young adult (in my 20s), I was a pretty heavy drinker and user of recreational drugs, and I do clearly understand the implications of widespread drug and alcohol use.

Perfectly legal, heavily regulated and taxed by the government, the manufacture and sale of alcoholic beverages is one of the world's largest, most successful and profitable industries. America tried to prohibit it for years in the early 20th Century, but the government lost the battle and finally embraced alcohol as a lucrative industry and source of tax revenue.

Alcohol almost killed me, tore my family to shreds, destroyed my career, wasted years of my life; and the whole time, I was convinced that the world was conspiring against me, right. Only when I sobered up and pulled my head out of my ass did I realize that I was the one conspiring against me.

I've seen the same story played out again and again — with both alcohol and drugs — and it doesn't have anything to do with oppressive laws and prohibition... It has to do with the fact that human beings are addictive animals who will fiercely defend their drugs of choice before they ever face the fact that we don't need to alter our brain chemistry to feel better about ourselves and the world.

Fact is, if you think you can't face life without imbibing some sort of chemical, be it legal or illegal, then you're a dependent user who hasn't fully explored and doesn't understand the potential of your own mind. I don't care what excuse you give — "I need these pills for the pain" or "I have to take this for my depression" or "This substance alleviates the side effects of my chemotherapy" — you're still just a dependent user, one who can't harness your own will.

Because you can alleviate the pain, you can heal yourself, and you can even get high just for the hell of it all through the power of your own mind.

But, we weren't going to let this thread devolve into a discussion of the merits and consequences of drug use, were we?


— Doc Velocity

I'm sorry Doc.....i usually agree with the points you make but this time i have to disagree...

Originally posted by Doc Velocity
From my modest research, I see that while the "crime rate" in the Netherlands is low, comparatively speaking, the criminal penalties — for, say, drug trafficking — can be and are much more severe than for similar crimes in the United States.

I really have no idea were you came up with this data but i'm from Holland and believe me, if anything, the penalties for just about anything you do around here are way way way to weak.

You get 4 to 6 years for killing somebody and some mandatory re-education and that's it.....

Holland does not have severe penalties!!!

Those convicted of drug trafficking and possessing "illegal drugs" (whatever that means in the Netherlands) can expect harsh and lengthy prison time, even by American standards. I take from the U.S. Department of State:

Is that sign still up in Las Vegas were it says you can get 20 years for caarying drugs?? I don't know were the department of state gets it's info from but i'm telling you they are wrong!!!

So, it sounds like the promise of severe punishment has a lot to do with the low crime rate. Perhaps we can borrow that lesson from the Netherlands, yes? Perhaps America needs to provide much more severe penalties for similar crimes.

No!! the promise of severe punishment only gives you more extreme crimes 'cause the people commiting those crime will go to greater lenghts to not get caught.

The more laws and the greater the punishment will always give you more extreme crimes. I guess that's the philosophy behind it....

Additionally, there are frequent robberies, thefts and confidence scams committed against tourists to the Netherlands — many of these crimes have involved the perpetrators first drugging the victims in public venues (hotel bars and nightclubs), which sounds incredibly dangerous to me.

There are no bad guys waiting in backstreets with chloroform or a syringe for tourists to come by. What they are talking about is the fact that you should never take a drink from a stranger and never leave your glass unattented in bars and disco's and stuff like that. Just common knowledge!!

Tourists to the Netherlands are also warned to avoid the frequent street demonstrations, which can turn violent on a moment's notice, in spite of police presence.

Violent street demonstrations???....if you ever go to Holland and there happens to be a demonstration.....join it!!! Violent street demonstrations in Holland...whahahaha. This is such bogus info the US goverment is giving you!!

So. While the domestic crime rate may be reported as "low," it seems that public security is quite a problem in the Netherlands, such that it's not quite as idyllic a society as some would lead you to believe.

Nope....to be honest, we don't have extremes like you guys have and the public security is not an issue overhere.
I know dutch people and if anything it's the constant discussion and debating because every side of a story has to be investigated and criminals have rights to and why they came to do what they did and so on.

Every group of people (including criminals) have a group of people behind them saying they have rights to and that has to be discussed untill everybody agrees.....

A funny story: If you get robbed in Holland and the criminal is arrested. Don't count on getting your money back because dutch law will say that eventhough the criminal was doing something wrong it is the way he makes his living so in stealing your money he makes a profit. He has to pay income taxes over this money and you get back what's left after the IRS takes his share.......that's freaking hilarious.

He can even claim a tax return over items such as a crow-bar, rope etc. because he usses it for his occupation.

I really love this country and i stand by my opinion that the higher the punishment the higher the crimes will be....

Peace

Originally posted by Ben Niceknowinya
You're a pieca work. Really.
First you mocked programs, which you said "there's plenty of" and how not important they are....blah blah blah......

Wow. How did you get mocking from what I wrote. I said that there are already plenty of such programs in place. How is that "mocking?"

Now you want to Mock Doc Velocity for adding his input, or opinion?

And you seemingly struggle with reading comprehension. I did NOT "mock." (Mocking implies snidely pretending to agree or be the person/thing one is mocking.) I laughed at his oblique (and nasty) attack of my views and pointed out where he was wrong. Get a grip, dude.

I actually find his thoughts to be relative to this debate.

Heh. So did I. I just didn't agree with him. To say the least. And I expressed that.

Even they differ from yours....and mine.

Yes, they do - at least from mine. I can't speak for you.

Where's your etiquettes, hu?

What? Laughing off an attack is somehow lacking in etiquette? You need to explain this further for me to answer.

First off, after re-reading your posts it seems like you just pull thoughts and comment outta thin air. Literally.

Ok. I am sorry for your inability to grasp the significance of my responses. [shrug] Whatever.

You have no idea what you're talking about. No offense. You have yet provided any links, evidence, sources of any sort to back up your ludicrous claims.

Sorry if I failed to prove something. My claims are not "ludicrous," insofar as I bring long years of research and experience to bear. If you want me to prove something, ask nicely.

Hahahahahahaha! Which drug? I can assure you, with Portugal, Netherlands, and California all as examples of (relatively) free use of an herb that crime has dropped (though not statistically significantly in CA, it has dropped a little).

Umm, after doing a quick search, again you're way off.
First off you should understand drug related crimes more:
www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov...

Number one, I did NOT say DRUG crimes, but just crime. In general.

Second, I would avoid sites put up by our NWO leaders as demonstration of truth. Try sites like:

www.mpp.org...

stopthedrugwar.org...

www.drugwarfacts.org...

You are more likely to gain good data from these sources than with anything with .gov at the end.

Incarcation rates:

Being aware of many users, I can say for sure that they become calmer, more loving, and DON'T have issues with inhibited judgment, nor an inability to distinguish right from wrong. Drug use only creates the intrusion, and other issues where it is illegal.

What a joke. Can you back that up with medical evidence?
Didn't think so.

Feh. Reporting my personal observations (and it spans 40 years) requires no "medical evidence." But if you read the information at the sites I offered, you might find that there is no "medical evidence" that contradicts what I say.

Or how about people who take drugs and commit violent offenses?
You want to add that to the equation? Have you????

Find those data from a non-.gov site, would ya? It turns out that the herb HAS NEVER caused someone to become violent. as for other drugs... Some, like PCP, can create issues. I don't recommend it for anyone. But most other drugs, the crimes are nearly ALWAYS before the use - to get the money to pay the inflated prices on the black market.

So we may see about...oh, maybe 100 violet crimes a year CAUSED by drugs. In the USA. And I suspect I am being generous.

Or are you just pulling sh*t outta your ashen.....AGAIN>

For someone claiming to be concerned with etiquette, this attack belies your concern therefore.

I'm guessing (according to that statement) it would be okay with you if pilots, air-traffick control tower personnel, bus drivers, etc etc....to say not be drug tested?

And I would say... In principle, you're wrong. But the fact (as proved by Mythbusters) that eating a poppy seed bagel before being tested will cause one to test positive for opiates. So unless the tests can be relied upon for valid data, what is the point of spending the money for them?

So, you're ALSO convinced that becasue drugs are "illegal", it exlpains (get this) our highEST crime rate?

No. That is not what I said at all. I said the legalization of it does not cause an INCREASE in crime, and seems to show some drop. Reading comprehension issues again, perhaps?

Okay, one question for you. In your opinion what contributes more to crime, poverty? Or Drugs?
Get the picture.

Poverty, hands down, unless you count the use of a drug a "crime." There are hundreds of thousands, millions even, every day that commit the "crime" of using illegal drugs. So if you count use, I guess it's drugs.

]Or the issues spring from the costs - which are artificially high in the black market.

Again, source please.

Check out the links above.

You clearly don't understand that these "tragedies happening every day in the real world" are CAUSED by prohibition.

I don't even know how to comment on that statement.

Gee. I'm sorry. [shrug]

So your argument, is to legalize drugs, to reduce crime?

Yes.

Good luck.

Educate yourself from sources that aren't out to deceive you.

Oh, and by the way... the "ex" tag...is for external sources. Not for quoting statements made on this board. Just thought you'd like to know.

[edit on 5/25/2009 by Amaterasu]

[edit on 5/25/2009 by Amaterasu]

Originally posted by operation mindcrime
I'm sorry Doc.....i usually agree with the points you make but this time i have to disagree...I don't know were the department of state gets it's info from but i'm telling you they are wrong!!!

Hm. So the U.S. Department of State is passing false information regarding crime in the Netherlands? I'll look into this immediately — Let's see, I need to contact the head of the State Department, who happens to be.....

Hillary Rodham Clinton.

Okay, nevermind.

— Doc Velocity

Originally posted by Doc Velocity

Originally posted by Amaterasu
You clearly don't understand that these "tragedies happening every day in the real world" are CAUSED by prohibition.

Not at all. I'm talking about illegal drugs such as coke, crack, heroin, home-brew methamphetamine, as well as legal, over-the-counter substances such as alcohol and dextromethorphan. None of these drugs contribute to a happy, tranquil and healthy life. On the contrary, I've seen many, many lives completely wasted through regular use and abuse of these poisons. I've never seen anyone strung out on any of this crap become a "better person" for having used it; in fact, I hate to recall the number of people I've known who have died from using — there are so many.

Those drugs you mention, it turns out, are used by a VERY small number of us, and if legal, would be pure, cheap, and available from reputable sources. The whole lifestyle of the addict would change.

But frankly, the use of the drugs are their personal freedom choices. You may not like what you see, but unless they're physically harming another, it really is no one's business but theirs.

Although I've been sober for decades, as a young adult (in my 20s), I was a pretty heavy drinker and user of recreational drugs, and I do clearly understand the implications of widespread drug and alcohol use.

Making it illegal, though, clearly does not remove it as an issue. Alcohol prohibition showed us that we have greater issues with prohibition than without it. And users weren't even committing a crime. Only the manufacture and sale was illegal.

Today's prohibition is creating the exact same issues: gang wars, police corruption, a slipping of respect to the law, adulterated product - but we now have excuses to surveil citizens, take their property without due process (and if you value the constitution, THAT one should rile you greatly), and otherwise functional citizens being arrested and torn from their families, ruining their lives.

Alcohol almost killed me, tore my family to shreds, destroyed my career, wasted years of my life; and the whole time, I was convinced that the world was conspiring against me, right. Only when I sobered up and pulled my head out of my ass did I realize that I was the one conspiring against me.

I am sorry to hear of the issues you had and am glad that you overcame them. Alcohol is one of the nastier drugs out there.

I've seen the same story played out again and again — with both alcohol and drugs — and it doesn't have anything to do with oppressive laws and prohibition... It has to do with the fact that human beings are addictive animals who will fiercely defend their drugs of choice before they ever face the fact that we don't need to alter our brain chemistry to feel better about ourselves and the world.

Did you know that Carl Sagan was a regular user of the herb? And that he said his best work was done under its use?

And as for the statement, "we don't need to alter our brain chemistry to feel better about ourselves and the world..." I say, speak for yourself. You cannot know what others need in their lives, necessarily.

Fact is, if you think you can't face life without imbibing some sort of chemical, be it legal or illegal, then you're a dependent user who hasn't fully explored and doesn't understand the potential of your own mind.

And if you are exploring drugs to open your mind...? Throughout history, many spiritual paths have embraced drugs as a method to enhance one's enlightenment. It may be that if you reject a drug experience, you are denying yourself an opportunity for growth.

I don't care what excuse you give — "I need these pills for the pain" or "I have to take this for my depression" or "This substance alleviates the side effects of my chemotherapy" — you're still just a dependent user, one who can't harness your own will.

So? I mean, that is the personal choice of the drug user. I would never take the poison that the pharmaceutical companies push - I only rarely take aspirin - but I would not stop another from making that choice.

Because you can alleviate the pain, you can heal yourself, and you can even get high just for the hell of it all through the power of your own mind.

Again. Speak for yourself. You can't know what others can do with their minds. Rather presumptuous to assume that you do.

But, we weren't going to let this thread devolve into a discussion of the merits and consequences of drug use, were we?

I suppose we can move on.

reply to post by Doc Velocity


Wahaha..LOL...

Always question everything when there is a Clinton involved!!! But now i'm seriously intrested why your own goverment would give you this kind of info on our countrie?

Maybe they don't want you guys to come here and find out that goverment infact doesn't have any power and is a mear tool of the people.....

I'm gonna look into it.....

Peace

Originally posted by Doc Velocity
And anyone who blithely believes that drug use doesn't inhibit the user's judgment and ability to distinguish between right and wrong, doesn't intrude on others' lives, doesn't break up families, and doesn't destroy lives is a complete moron who refuses to see (or isn't able to see) these tragedies happening every day in the real world.

— Doc Velocity

Doc,
Your point is completely correct but as the age old argument goes..

How many people die from alcohol abuse each year?
How many people die from smoking too much tobacco?
How many people are beginning to die from McDonalds overdoses over prolonged periods of time?

Are these not ruining lives and families also? More slowly in some cases.. but people still have the choice to do so..

Fair enough.. Heavy heavy addictive drugs should always be banned but the likes of Cannabis, Ecstasy and some amphetamines which are:

easy to make locally,
easy to control strength,
easy to tax, easy to distribute,
easy to control who gets what through a registration and card system,
and finally.. rarely if ever cause actual physical addiction while 'actual misuse' in rare cases MIGHT cause bodily or mental harm.

In my opinion, Addictive Drugs or ones that cause harm to others getting to you.. ie Cocaine, Heroine etc should have a minimum mandatory 5 year sentance attached to possession or sale BECAUSE these drugs ACTUALLY ruin lives.

My perspective is not from being a drug user..

I am looking at this from a perspective of revenue being spent trying to crack down on substances that are relatively harmless.. these substances can also create MASSIVE revenue for the governments of countries if they legalize, completely control and heavily tax them. Its a double whammy..

From then on, the governments, with their extra savings and extra revenue can spend that money cutting down on substances that ACTUALLY harm people, Criminals that commit ACTUAL crimes and helping those that ACTUALLY want help.



Recently enough, a study by a British minister revealed that by ratio, more people die from an ADDICTION to horse riding each year than by regular use of MDMA(ecstasy) and you are 8 times more likely to die from eating your first peanut than taking your first E tablet.. Yet horse riding and peanuts are still legal... and ecstasy is not.

There is a lot more to the overall "WAR ON DRUGS" than meets the eye anyway.. especially when you see the likes of the CIA keep getting caught transporting planeloads of Cocaine into the US..

Keeping these things criminalized keeps the prices high...

Also, as I said before.. and this is not just relating to drugs.,. this is in many laws that were created in times gone by..

The legal systems of all countries need reform for several things that are illegal for times gone by.
Times change and people change through generations.. as people evolve socially. By changing many of these laws and actually allowing peoples attitudes to change towards things for the better, there will be no need for many of these laws in the future.. also, people would have more freedom to do what they wanted to do as long as they weren't hurting others.


[edit on 25/5/09 by Dermo]

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984
maybe its because education and healthcare is free

reply to post by Doc Velocity



Trust me, penalties are much lower here..But the accompaniment with a parole officer or not could be a long traject in some cases..With a DWI people need to walk a long path before being finished with government projects and parole things..I must say more carrying then being harsh..
But with crimes with at least 4 years of imprisonment and the presence of a major disorder people can be locked away in a special TBS[special arrangement ] detention program, and that could be for the rest of their lives..Its all the programs accompanied with the penalties..

And frequent street demonstrations? We not talking about France are we ..If i were on holiday in another country why whould i participate in a demonstration?, hey we're in moscow, after lunch we're gonna see and participate in this gay demonstation wouldn't that be neat? !! maybe a tourist went along with some Ajax hooligans after a lost football match and thought he'd be in a demonstration..haha But no demonstration are pretty ok here, last week we had extreme right demonstration in Den Bosch, all went very quiet..
But really Amsterdam and other major cities are a walhalla for tourists,and its actually because of them and their drinking/smoking/and eating mushrooms at the same time we lost our legality on mushrooms! because they went jumping of bridges and such, those things are to be taken in the tranquility of nature...
Just found this article about New Yorkers and their vision of AMsterdam

Amsterdam breathes Village tranquility to New Yorkers







[edit on 25-5-2009 by Foppezao]

Originally posted by operation mindcrime
A funny story: If you get robbed in Holland and the criminal is arrested. Don't count on getting your money back because dutch law will say that eventhough the criminal was doing something wrong it is the way he makes his living so in stealing your money he makes a profit. He has to pay income taxes over this money and you get back what's left after the IRS takes his share.......that's freaking hilarious.

Funny...but not true!
If you are robbed and the criminal is arrested, then the money is evidence. The police will not give it back...ever. So the normal routine would be to sue the criminal for damages. If the criminal is convicted then the damage claim is automatically awarded. You can also claim for your medical expenses and other damage that resulted from the crime.

The IRS part is also a little different than you state. In the Netherlands there is a law called the 'pluk ze' law (translates to 'pluck them'). As soon as a criminal is caught we try to 'clean them out'. All ill gotten gains are taken from them (normal procedure) and THEN we send the IRS after them for failing to have paid income tax over the last 5 years. So they have no money left and a debt to the IRS to boot.

And your claim that they can get a tax return for their tools...
They can't claim expenses for their 'tools' because 'burglar' isn't a profession accepted by the IRS.

Originally posted by Doc Velocity
Very well, I'll avoid making nebulous wagers and unsubstantiated "claims"...

From my modest research, I see that while the "crime rate" in the Netherlands is low, comparatively speaking, the criminal penalties — for, say, drug trafficking — can be and are much more severe than for similar crimes in the United States. Those convicted of drug trafficking and possessing "illegal drugs" (whatever that means in the Netherlands) can expect harsh and lengthy prison time, even by American standards. I take from the U.S. Department of State:

Crime & Criminal Penalties in The Netherlands

Cheers for the input Doc. Whilst harsher sentences may be part of it, the USA has pretty harsh sentences, harsher than most of the UK sentences and yet your crime rate is higher than ours. So it obviously isn't just about punishment.

Originally posted by Doc Velocity
Additionally, there are frequent robberies, thefts and confidence scams committed against tourists to the Netherlands — many of these crimes have involved the perpetrators first drugging the victims in public venues (hotel bars and nightclubs), which sounds incredibly dangerous to me.

Tourists to the Netherlands are also warned to avoid the frequent street demonstrations, which can turn violent on a moment's notice, in spite of police presence.

Tourists to the UK are told about pick pockets in London and Birmingham. It's hardly a good representation of a countries crime rate. It's just the tourist boards covering themselves as they don't like complaints. There are crimes against tourists, but again, their crime rate is lower. So not sure why it matter just because they're tourists.

Originally posted by Doc Velocity
To top it off, the Dutch government observes a standing terrorist threat level of "Substantial," which is the second-highest level on their 4-tiered scale of terrorist alert. The Netherlands' open borders with other EU countries allow suspected terrorist groups and operatives easy access to and exit from the country. Hmm, do you think maybe they should lock down their borders, or would that be too much like learning a lesson from America?

So. While the domestic crime rate may be reported as "low," it seems that public security is quite a problem in the Netherlands, such that it's not quite as idyllic a society as some would lead you to believe.

I never said or implied that it was idyllic. Every single country has it's problems. I simply stated that fact that they have a lower crime rate across multiple areas of crime. That they have such a low crime rate that prisons are being shut down whereas in the UK we're having to build new ones.

As for the terrorist thing, security level and all that, it doesn't really have much to do with the topic as a whole.


EDIT

From the link you provided Doc.

CRIME: While the rate of violent crime in the Netherlands is low, tourists are often targets of thieves.

So even the USA admits crime is low. The question now is why. It isn't as simple as saying that they decriminilised a load of stuff becasue as stated their rates of crime for burglary, rape and murder are less.

[edit on 25-5-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

reply to post by Doc Velocity


lol, their terrorist threat level is SUBSTANTIAL!

Gangs roam the streets and turn violent at the drop of a hat!

You will be injected with a neon-green glowing fluid in a clear-syringe if you walk into a bar or public area, then someone will scam you while you're passed out!

Yet paradoxically, their crime rate is much lower than most places in the world.

Could it be all those terrorists killing the criminals? Hard to say..


I've seen several documentaries about the Netherlands, and from what I can tell, they have a low crime rate because the people there are not crazy. There's really no other way to say it, without writing a book on the subject. Simply put, the Dutch are a very reasonable and tolerant people.

The Netherlands has always been an epicenter of freedom and free thinking. Whereas places like the US, are the exact opposite. Tightly nit and highly integrated, always looking back, never forward, controlled by religion and corporations.

The US has high crime rate because EVERYTHING here is illegal. I've been picked up by the police for walking down the street before.

If you want lower crime rate, try being more tolerant. The only reason we have more criminals is because we make everything a crime.

Originally posted by Dermo
There's a few Dutch people on the site, if you can get this thread on the main page in 10 hours time, they will probably answer.. as far as i know its 1am in Holland at the mo.

S&F for that. Its silly. people are all over craigs list or getting silly drunk at parties while hoping to get laid. The "sin" is there at least be a bit more social about it. I for one would like to protect the prostitutes from the pimps out there that make their lives a living hell. Give those LEO something to do!

Gosh anyone esle in US (im guessing UK, but idk how do all those cameras affect the prostitution rings (any frequenters lol)) but imagine if the dealers had no cash coming in from women OR drugs wow! the money would be in the right places again! I bet teh streets would be cleaner too. Us Christians willhave an easier time preaching to the prostitutes when their actions are legal (even if its not looked well upon under God's eyes). COme on its stupid to keep illegal. i bet there would be less STD's too. any comparable facts between Netherlands STD rates compared to US UK?

The netherlands, where I live , is a really tolerant country yes ..
And its beginnen to be a problem now, The netherlands aren't acting hard enough on crimes, and certain subcultures are beginnen to see that they can get away easy from the grip of law.

And that is causing ALOT of trouble in the past year.
I think we'll see a big increase of crime over the next couple of years.

The subcultures I am talking about above are the second generation of immigrants, kids born from people that came from Marocco, The Dutch Antilles, Somalia.

They are beginnen to form a real problem that is finally being acknowleged by the government.

Im talking about 14 year old kids on stolen scooters robbing shop owners with knives and baseball clubs. and 9 out of 10 are 2nd gen. immigrants.
And what happens? nothing... because they can't be held accountable, because they're 14. 3 years back that was an absurd idea... but now everyone accepts it as a possibility.

Since this year we are seeing stabbings at schools, threathening of teachers, even one teacher shot in the head in front of a classroom.
And we ''down to earth'' dutch people say ..Ooh well.. its just coincidance that its those same kind of people over an over again. But its beginning to show that it isnt coincidance.

last week I was walking home with a friend, we had been to a club. We walked past a group of non-dutch youth. They provoked us into a fight.. I'm talking about 2 vs 9. Now is that weak or what. I got attacked by four 14-15 year old kids, acompanied by some older what seemned to be leaders.

And this is how the street atmospere is right now. there is a sense among the dutch to avoid these kind of people.. wich creates a big gap of culture.. wich makes them feel even more discriminated. And that makes them rebel.

Alot of those kids are dropping out of school, getting kicked out of school. I've been on schools were 90% were immigrants... and I can tell you it isnt nice. There is a real ''Gangsta'' like atmosphere there... the one guy is acting even tougher then the guy next to him.

There are certain neighbourhoods in Rotterdam and Amsterdam where the police won't even go.

Now that is unheard of in the Netherlands.

And what happens if these kids grow older, kicked out of skool? fill in the answer yourself.

We're seeing the 2nd generation affecting the 3rd. So we need some intervention on the street.

And its up to the government to step up to the plate, and up to us Dutch to create a better bond with those people.

Or the # will hit the fan soon

[edit on 25-5-2009 by Solidus Green eye]

[edit on 25-5-2009 by Solidus Green eye]

I'm mostly a lurker around here but this post really makes me want to share my views.

I live in The Netherlands and I think the crime rate is lower than other countries because they don't recognize everything as I crime.
My mother, sister and I have lived through abuse and nearly got killed on a night it escalated. Luckily the police got there on time and the person was held incarcerated for one night. A few months later after filing the abuse at the police station, we get a letter back saying they're not taking it to court because there were too few witnesses. There were two witnesses apart from us: my grandmother heard it all happen through the phone and my neighbor who got a pretty good idea what was happening because she heard it happen. If this is how The Netherlands handles all crimes that are committed, it surprises me they still have some prisoners left.

I'd much rather be in a country where my rights as a human are defended than have everything look nice for the rest of the world. IMO, all of this has nothing to do with the legalization of drugs and prostitution.

[edit on 25-5-2009 by Nora?]

reply to post by Nora?


That also a MAJOR problem. Abuse, child molesting gets you a labor penalty and more often even no punishment. THOSE PEOPLE NEED TO BE IN JAIL

There are countless examples of gruwsome murder scenes, where the suspect gets 1,5 years max. thats absurd!

The way they judge people in court here is really soft and sometimes way to burocratic and unhuman. They get away with a mental condition so they get a decrease of jail time for instance.

Sterkte

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
western countries. Their approach to prostitution and drugs will of course reduce the prison population. However this doesn't account for all of it, so i wonder, should we study

I think it has a larger effect than one might consider, that has a radial effect. Sexual repression is the nature of the course around the world. Sexual expression for example cannot be denied, any more than eating. People who are not allowed to engage in sexual expression, or who feel guilt for their sexual repression become disconnected from their fellow man.

This results in fellow man being over there, and my needs and me is over here, and you are now separate from me. If that interconnectedness is allowed to happen without being restricted, humanity who is an interconnected conscious species, feel well, and balanced and more co-operative, their needs are being met, and that ripples out into society.

However in North America for example, if a person ends up in a senior home at say 65 and meets another resident, and they want to have sex, it is often banned, and sometimes they are asked to leave.

If a young woman or man decides to have sex early in life and want that experience, or multiple partners, or not to have a long term partner they are called names, and ostrasized as being less worthy.

In other words, sexuality is repressed at every turn, and if you look at many of the situations where there was a person who went serial and killed many other people, it was because they felt they were separate and not part of the group. Their needs were not being met, and they were separate from their victims.

For some people they say, that person was wrong because my needs are being met in that type of situation, but for that person, their needs were not being met, and they were disconnected.

So I would suggest, openness of sexuality, and things like safe areas for hookers and johns are a good thing, and it reflects in an overall good for society, and when others start ramming moralism down into other peoples lives, then we might have lower crime rates as well.