POLI: Crime - What Are The Netherlands Doing Right?

reply to post by TheBandit795

What I think is contributing to the so called "less crime" is the mentality of mediocrity. There's a Dutch saying: "Doe man gewoon, dan doe je gek genoeg" (Act normal, then you're already acting crazy enough). It's keeping people in line, afraid of what others might think if they do something against the norm (which would also include some crimes) and it encourages shame.

What you talk of is true in a way but i believe it doesn't only apply to dutch people but for everybody everywere......
I saw a YouTube video once from a camera mounted in a newspaper store were some kids lit a fire in a paperstand at the shops entrance. When it started smoking everybody just entered and exited the shop ,clearly noticing the smoke ,but nobody reacted. When the flames started to show people still entered and exited the shop and still nobody acted. I guess nobody wanted to make the first move because they were afraid of the reaction of the rest of the crowd. Eventually the shop owner put out the fire. I guess it's human nature.....

The Dutch complain a lot about the government not caring about them, but only about how to tax and fine them.

That's also a very famous dutch trade....complain about everything!!!!

If you know dutch people ,you know this to be true......

And about the saying "doe maar gewoon dan doe je al gek genoeg" that derives from our calvinistical past.....

Read up if you want to know what makes the dutch people tick...

Calvinism

Peace

Edit : added some text for clarification

[edit on 27/5/2009 by operation mindcrime]

reply to post by operation mindcrime


Believe me.. I know what makes Dutch people tick. I am Dutch... Caribbean Dutch, that is.

reply to post by TheBandit795


Caribbean Dutch is dutch aswell....

The upperwind islands (i believe that's the best translation i can find for "bovenwindse eilanden" ) are gonna be official dutch communities (gemeente) and i believe that after the voting last week you guys are gonna hear a lot more from the dutch.....

But with half the population (130.000 in Holland and 180.000 in the caribbean) i guess you could say you guys belong here as much as windmills and tulips....

Peace

Only Bonaire, Saba & St Eustatius are going to be Dutch communities. Aruba will remain sovereign, which is the status that Curacao & SXM are going to adopt.

So instead of the Netherlands, Aruba and the Netherlands Antilles, the Kingdom is going to comprise of the Netherlands, Aruba, SXM and Curacao.

But anyway.. Back to the crime rate in The Netherlands..

Originally posted by jimmyx

because the wealthy and powerful benefit from these laws...if they didn't they would be changed...it's all about the money, when are people going to realize this. when you start to think in this way whenever something does not appear to be right, it becomes clear. become a critical thinker.

[edit on 27-5-2009 by jimmyx]

Jimmy, you have advised becoming a critical thinker yet you haven't done that in this paragraph of yours. If it is all about the money then the legalisation of drugs and protitution would make literally hundred of millions of pounds in revenue and taxes. Yet you seem to suggest that not having them legal is the powers that be getting something from it? In the Netherlands they are far more liberal about it though so.............well your entire quote here is convoluted.

Which laws are they benefiting from? The Netherlands obviously has a system which works better than ours here in the UK. Oh it isn't perfect of course, but it is better. I've been trying to find some figures for reoffending rates to compare but struggling a bit atm.

Most people don't cause trouble.. indeed, most people go out of their way to avoid trouble, as they'd be carrying a substance which hangs in a legal grey zone.

I know when I drive to Holland, I go so far as to check my lights to see I can't get pulled over for a stupid taillight.. allways buckle up, and néver exceed speed limits, especially since my bro got a police photo in the mail one day for exceeding the speed limit by one (1) kilometer per hour

And I think most people don't realize how much of an economical blessing it is to have so many people in their country who otherwise would maybe not choose to be there.

Since I go there anyway, I shop in a Jumbo mall, finding all sorts of stuff I wouldn't find here at a nice prize. I sometimes run out of petrol near the border, so I tank at a Dutch gas station, when it runs late, I pick up a slice at the local domino's or sometimes go to this great Italian restaurant to really have a pleasant evening on the terrace.

and that is just me.. I'm sure the financial status of south holland will not exactly be boosted if they persevere in the foolishness.. all they'll still get are the uninformed and the clueless, while people who read papers will just drive a bit further inland to be able to keep living their lives without being catalogued for some, possibly sinister database

[edit on 27-5-2009 by Phatcat]

Originally posted by Phatcatespecially since my bro got a police photo in the mail one day for exceeding the speed limit by one (1) kilometer per hour

That's what I call complete abuse. A friend of mine once got a fine (photo in the mail) for driving in a one-way road, at 4 am, with no other car anywhere in sight, just to reach to an ATM (I think it was a drive through one) several meters into the street. He would have to drive around a whole block to reach to it the regular way.

Another friend of mine got one for driving 2 km/h two fast...

Sorry to hear that in Holland, safety laws are even worse than they are here in the U.S.. I think safety laws make Orwell's concept of thought crime seem mild. They really shouldn't be able to punish someone from making a mistake, which is what safety crimes are, unless you show a pattern of consistently disregarding or failing to consider the safety of others.

You betcha that when a cop says stop here in the U.S. you had better stop, because if you don't, he just might empty his gun into you, and that will be the end of you, and no one will do a thing about it, even if you have committed no crime at all. The situation is out of hand. Throw in the safety laws, and the prohibition laws, and the whole land of the free is nothing but a joke. This is the sad state of affairs in the U.S. these days.

Originally posted by poet1b
You betcha that when a cop says stop here in the U.S. you had better stop, because if you don't, he just might empty his gun into you, and that will be the end of you, and no one will do a thing about it, even if you have committed no crime at all. The situation is out of hand. Throw in the safety laws, and the prohibition laws, and the whole land of the free is nothing but a joke. This is the sad state of affairs in the U.S. these days.

Thats because you can cary a gun, and you cant here.. so no need to empty a gun.
You life in a country where everybody could possible be armed, with ghetto's where no police dares to enter, with prisons overfilled with inmates who have more power inside than outside, and that sir, creates a policeman who dont take any risks.
The saying is 'there is something rotten in Denmark' but it looks like they ment the US.

Like seeing now and then, I dont watch much TV, on Discovery and other import US TV # some reality shows of police pursuits we almost never see this here. I really cant remember something like those here.
How is that difference possible?
The strange thing is that imho the US normal citizen are more conservative minded than most Europeans, albeit the most porn comes form the US, there is more excess in the US then over here.

We need a professor to explain all this I guess..

Interresting topic, and I like to broaden it a bit to differences between US and European thinking and such.

reply to post by VonDutch


You can only carry a gun in the states when you are hunting in an area approved for hunting, or if you have a special permit in the U.S.. In order to have a special permit to carry a gun in a city you have to have a spotless criminal record and a valid reason. Very few people have these permits. Otherwise, if you are carrying a gun on your person, then you are a criminal.

I don't know how hard it is to obtain a gun in Europe, but being that any confrontation between a cop and a citizen is always a deadly potential, there should be reasonable factors that constitute reasonable risk. I think cops in the U.S. get away with far more than is acceptable. We have been evolving into a police state for some time now. Most of the crime that takes place in the U.S. is concentrated in inner cities. IMO, this is mainly a result of badly implemented welfare policies that I think are implemented in this way for the very purpose of creating crime, along with drug prohibition which makes the ghetto situation even worse, and vastly increases crime in those areas.

I can see car chases being more common here as our roads are far more extensive, which increases the potential for someone trying to our run the police, but it is rare. Most of these TV shows cover not only all of the U.S., but also car chases that have occurred over the decades, so they make the situation look much worse than it is.

After alcohol prohibition ended, the had all these cops with nothing to do for jobs, so began drug prohibition. They ended alcohol prohibition because it creates crime, and they should end drug prohibition for the same reason.

I do think all these sin laws only make things worse. Tell someone they can't do something, and that makes them want to do it even more, and this is probably the biggest reason for youth cultures obsession with drugs. Authority figures like it because it creates jobs for them, and at the same time gives them more power and control, which those types usually covet. The sheople watch these crime shows and think it is too dangerous to go outside and vote regularly for more laws and more cops, and a bigger police state, and then wonder why their taxes keep going up, while government still can't afford to pay the bills.

It is sad what has happened to this country.

Originally posted by poet1b
I don't know how hard it is to obtain a gun in Europe, but being that any confrontation between a cop and a citizen is always a deadly potential, there should be reasonable factors that constitute reasonable risk. I think cops in the U.S. get away with far more than is acceptable. We have been evolving into a police state for some time now. Most of the crime that takes place in the U.S. is concentrated in inner cities. IMO, this is mainly a result of badly implemented welfare policies that I think are implemented in this way for the very purpose of creating crime, along with drug prohibition which makes the ghetto situation even worse, and vastly increases crime in those areas.

I feel we're going rather off topic but oh well.

Getting a gun in Europe depends by country, i can however guarentee you that if you are well known at several local pubs then you can find someone, who know ssomeone who can get you a firearm illegally here in the UK. I know this for a fact because someone offered me a firearm when i was talking about hunting. I used to hunt legally and we were talking about it. That scared the hell out of me i admit.

Welfare policies do need to be carefully monitored. The only problem with carful monitoring is that people like myself, who are very unwell get caught up in all the chaff and have to jump through hoops to keep our benefits.

Originally posted by poet1b
I can see car chases being more common here as our roads are far more extensive, which increases the potential for someone trying to our run the police, but it is rare. Most of these TV shows cover not only all of the U.S., but also car chases that have occurred over the decades, so they make the situation look much worse than it is.

The UK actually has quite a large incidence of car jacking.

Originally posted by poet1b
After alcohol prohibition ended, the had all these cops with nothing to do for jobs, so began drug prohibition. They ended alcohol prohibition because it creates crime, and they should end drug prohibition for the same reason. [/quoe]

Not quite. They ended prohibition because they realised they couldn't control it, politicians liked alcohol and so pushed it through and the mob no doubt blackmailed a few people as well. Not that i disagree with alcohol but the reasons for it's legalisation are slightly more complex.

Originally posted by poet1b
I do think all these sin laws only make things worse. Tell someone they can't do something, and that makes them want to do it even more, and this is probably the biggest reason for youth cultures obsession with drugs. Authority figures like it because it creates jobs for them, and at the same time gives them more power and control, which those types usually covet. The sheople watch these crime shows and think it is too dangerous to go outside and vote regularly for more laws and more cops, and a bigger police state, and then wonder why their taxes keep going up, while government still can't afford to pay the bills.

It is sad what has happened to this country.

Whilst some people see something banned and want to do it more, i think it is mainly young kids who think like that. With prostitution and drugs it is done becuase they enjoy it, peopel of all ages enjoy it. Putting aside the medical argument of course.

Think about why prostitutes exist. It is because men and women want sex! I like the old argument, "why is it you can't charge for something you can give away for free". Now seriously, why is that one illegal? If we taxed prostitution, allowed brothels and licensed the hell out of it then we'd make a fortune here in the UK. We may also reduce the rape rate and the rate of violence may go down as men and women have a release.

As for drugs, well i just don't get why people are banned for putting things into their body that they want to. Deffinitely not my thing, i don't do anything beyond alcohol and caffeiene, but i support anyone who wants to go further.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


I would have to say that it has been clearly proven that they can not control drug use either, but they continue on anyway.

I agree, I think you are right, young people are the ones who tend to do things because they shouldn't, and, unfortunately, things like getting caught doing drugs, or selling drugs to their friends, can ruin their possibilities for the rest of their lives. The kids whose parents have influence get the matter swept under the table, while the kids without any influence get screwed for doing something that everyone else is doing. The temptation for poor kids to engage in dealing drugs to escape poverty is very great, and the punishment for getting caught is very severe.

Drug prohibition is a great way for the PTB to control people, create crime, spread hysteria, all those nice techniques that play so well into the hands of those who covet power.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Originally posted by Dermo
There's a few Dutch people on the site, if you can get this thread on the main page in 10 hours time, they will probably answer.. as far as i know its 1am in Holland at the mo.

Well it only gets there by flagging, starring and discussion

I really do think we can learn things from other countries. We need to rocognise that some countries do things better than us and we can learn from them.

in america, there is too much profit in crime and punishment. making money on either side of the law is the capitalist system at its finest. generate enough fear, and the populace will go along with anything. the american dream is just that...you have to be asleep to realize it.

netherlands are the best country. been there 5 times and wanted to move. They are light years ahead. that's it

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


While yes I 100% agree that legalizing most of the drugs here would drasticly reduce the crime rate, you would also have to become stricter on crime. Basicly stop trying to find a middle ground to appease all the bleeding heart liberals in this country. Take a page out of the muslim countries. If your caught stealing chop off your hand. No medical proceder no anistisia, just take a very sharp sword and in one swift blow tak off the hand. I guarrentee you that about half the people that commit crimes would no longer do them because the punishment is extreme. If you rape some one, death plain and simple. Those are just some examples of what needs to be done. I could fill pages on this stuff. But it will never happen. Because everyytime someone tries all the special intrest groups cry foul.