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Macedonia and the Greece propaganda
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reply to post by Founding
OK lets talk like this.
First of all you dont have any idea about what happened 2000-3000 years ago so leave the ancient history.
Second, whole land including Thessalonikki was macedonian you can not denie nothing here because it is true and there are many many facts. Macedonia was big country.
We were 500 years under turkish ocupation, maybe you were also.
We were in some periods under serbian occupation, bulgarian etc.
Macedonia was divided on 3 pieces.
One part is in Bulgaria, one is in Greece and the 3th there i live now.
Now it is 2009!!!
What happen on Balcan?
Bulgaria is assimilating macedonian people. Every student that want to study faculty in Bulgaria must write that his nationality is bulgarian!!!
Macedonian people can not register their own political party.
Why? Because there are too many macedonians and will make serious opstructions on the political field in Bulgaria.
What is going on in Greece?
There are many many macedonians living in Greece!
Macedonians can not say that are macedonians because maybe some fool will fight them, maybe they will loose their job.
Simply the people are scared.(What about the military exsercise few months ago when greek army enter with thanks in macedonian viliges???)
No one have human rights in Greece except greeks.
During these 60 years all macedonian names in Greece were changed into greek ones.
Whats is this?
In the civil war in Greece, 60 years ago (pls correct me if im wrong) there was etnical cleaning. Your people massacred a lot of macedonians, there are a lot living witness and pictures of that violence and many documents about a land property that you do not return to them to the real owners of the land.
Now you said that we want a part of Greece. No dear friend, the people who lived there want to return to their homes, because they lived there with centuries and greek goverment took the land from them.
If you recognize Macedonia as a country and as a nation, you will have to return billions of euros to this people with documents.
Ofcourse the old macedonian part that is greek now it wont be returned.
Other thing, your goverment is not talking about economics or better life of the people in Greece. The main topic is the name Macedonia!!! Which political party said something more against Macedonia, that party has bigger chances to win the next elections
Hold on my friend, Greece is democratic country right??
No human rights!!!
Violence!!!
Please come to Macedonia!
You will find beautifull multicultural society.
You will find that every nation has equal human rights and small nationalities have guaranteed place in the pairlament.
But we are small and economicly and with diplomacy weak country, so you can make any kind of propaganda about Macedonia. But the reality is reality and need time
So leave the politic and history on other side and don't make problems
OK lets talk like this.
First of all you dont have any idea about what happened 2000-3000 years ago so leave the ancient history.
Second, whole land including Thessalonikki was macedonian you can not denie nothing here because it is true and there are many many facts. Macedonia was big country.
We were 500 years under turkish ocupation, maybe you were also.
We were in some periods under serbian occupation, bulgarian etc.
Macedonia was divided on 3 pieces.
One part is in Bulgaria, one is in Greece and the 3th there i live now.
Now it is 2009!!!
What happen on Balcan?
Bulgaria is assimilating macedonian people. Every student that want to study faculty in Bulgaria must write that his nationality is bulgarian!!!
Macedonian people can not register their own political party.
Why? Because there are too many macedonians and will make serious opstructions on the political field in Bulgaria.
What is going on in Greece?
There are many many macedonians living in Greece!
Macedonians can not say that are macedonians because maybe some fool will fight them, maybe they will loose their job.
Simply the people are scared.(What about the military exsercise few months ago when greek army enter with thanks in macedonian viliges???)
No one have human rights in Greece except greeks.
During these 60 years all macedonian names in Greece were changed into greek ones.
Whats is this?
In the civil war in Greece, 60 years ago (pls correct me if im wrong) there was etnical cleaning. Your people massacred a lot of macedonians, there are a lot living witness and pictures of that violence and many documents about a land property that you do not return to them to the real owners of the land.
Now you said that we want a part of Greece. No dear friend, the people who lived there want to return to their homes, because they lived there with centuries and greek goverment took the land from them.
If you recognize Macedonia as a country and as a nation, you will have to return billions of euros to this people with documents.
Ofcourse the old macedonian part that is greek now it wont be returned.
Other thing, your goverment is not talking about economics or better life of the people in Greece. The main topic is the name Macedonia!!! Which political party said something more against Macedonia, that party has bigger chances to win the next elections
Hold on my friend, Greece is democratic country right??
No human rights!!!
Violence!!!
Please come to Macedonia!
You will find beautifull multicultural society.
You will find that every nation has equal human rights and small nationalities have guaranteed place in the pairlament.
But we are small and economicly and with diplomacy weak country, so you can make any kind of propaganda about Macedonia. But the reality is reality and need time
So leave the politic and history on other side and don't make problems
Originally posted by Macedonia
reply to post by BLV12
i am sorry if you think if the post is racist, maybe it is but i don't think nothing bad for you or for greek people.
Just say that whole Balcan is white, and you are a little darker==> if we talk about DNA and this should be some fact.
We can not talk what happened 2000 or 3000 years ago, so you are in right in some things but i am also right for some things.
When i am talking about words said by ancient greek famous orators you say that it is not true.
But these are the most visible historian facts and prooves that can be touched with hand and read by eye.
i think that this topic should be closed, who are we to decide what is right and what is wrong
It is racist. And if a moderator does not pick up on it I will be reporting it.
You want this topic closed because you can not bare to have the TRUTH, the FACTS, posted one of the most popular/busiest forums on the Internet.
Next time you should chose more carefully where to go spread your propaganda.
You see we have no problem with you starting threads, posting propaganda and lies. Me personally, I find it quite amusing the lengths you will go to, to try and disprove fact and history, to try and convince educated people that Greeks are not Greeks, that they are Africans, that ancient Greek kingdoms were not Greek, that despite artifacts with ancient Greek text inscriptions, you still try and deny it. I mean, your government even put one of these artifacts on display outside a government office in Skopje. The inscriptions are in ancient Greek(of which Modern Greek comes from).
The sheer lunacy in the bs that eminates from your country is simply astounding. I do not think a country such as yours, based on outright lies and propaganda, has ever existed in history, nor do I think that a country has ever existed which continues to try and tell the world that the facts, the truth, that HISTORY is wrong, but they, a "nation" created in 1945, and a country which has existed for not even two decades, is correct.
Normally, a sane human being would think hang on, let me question this, let me research and see for my self. But you, you lot are unable to even do this.
You have been brought up, raised, to deny your Slavic Bulgarian origins, replaced instead with non existent ties to Ancient Macedon which was part of the Hellenistic world.
For petes sake, the Ancient Olympics were for Greek men only. No outsiders took part. How could Alexander and many others from Ancient Macedon, have taken part along side other Greek city states and kingdoms, if Ancient Macedonia was not Greek?
Any person who is SANE, would see how ridiculous your claims are, just by reading the above paragraph. But you, nah, not you. Logic and common sense are absent in your mind.
continued from above post because of character limit..
Ok so we don't have any idea, and you want us to leave ancient history alone.
So I take it you think YOU have any idea what happened 2-3 millennium ago?
Actually, we do know a lot about what happened 2 and 3,000 years ago. In fact, we know what happened far beyond that. And we are still discovering new things. And unfourtunately for people like you, the world already discovered ancient Greece, and Macedonia, Alexander, Philip, etc, were all part of discoveries on Ancient Greece.
We can deny it because it isn't true.
Macedonia was never a country.
There was an Ancient Macedonian kingdom, which was Greek.
Today exists a state called FYROM which has nothing to do with that ancient kingdom.
The northern Greek province of Makedonia, does however, have a lot to do with the Ancient Macedonian kingdom, which was also Greek.
Funny you should mention the Ottoman Empire.
Why is it, that we, the Bulgarians, and the Serbs, all had wars for our independence against the Ottoman Empire, yet you, so a group of people who claim to be Macedonians, never had such a war?
What's the matter, the UMD, George Sorros, and other loonies haven't gotten around to creating one for you to post here yet? Email them and let them know theres a major whole in their work of fiction.
You were under the Ottoman Empire, but you were Bulgarians back then. Tito hadn't come along with his grand plan.
The geographical region of Macedonia was divided between Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria, because these are the people who lived in the geographical region of Macedonia. There were of course Turks, but the majority of them were sent back to Turkey, and a large amount of Greeks sent to Greece in what is known as the Population Exchanges.
Actually you lie. There is a fourth, a tiny part. It is in Albania. Maybe you should check your propaganda maps more closely in future.
We'll I don't know about any of that. But I do know that Bulgaria has offered citizenship to the people of FYROM living in FYROM it self, and tens of thousands of your own people have taken out Bulgarian citizenship. That should tell you something.
Originally posted by Macedonia
reply to post by Founding
OK lets talk like this.
First of all you dont have any idea about what happened 2000-3000 years ago so leave the ancient history.
Ok so we don't have any idea, and you want us to leave ancient history alone.
So I take it you think YOU have any idea what happened 2-3 millennium ago?
Actually, we do know a lot about what happened 2 and 3,000 years ago. In fact, we know what happened far beyond that. And we are still discovering new things. And unfourtunately for people like you, the world already discovered ancient Greece, and Macedonia, Alexander, Philip, etc, were all part of discoveries on Ancient Greece.
Second, whole land including Thessalonikki was macedonian you can not denie nothing here because it is true and there are many many facts. Macedonia was big country.
We can deny it because it isn't true.
Macedonia was never a country.
There was an Ancient Macedonian kingdom, which was Greek.
Today exists a state called FYROM which has nothing to do with that ancient kingdom.
The northern Greek province of Makedonia, does however, have a lot to do with the Ancient Macedonian kingdom, which was also Greek.
We were 500 years under turkish ocupation, maybe you were also.
We were in some periods under serbian occupation, bulgarian etc.
Macedonia was divided on 3 pieces.
One part is in Bulgaria, one is in Greece and the 3th there i live now.
Funny you should mention the Ottoman Empire.
Why is it, that we, the Bulgarians, and the Serbs, all had wars for our independence against the Ottoman Empire, yet you, so a group of people who claim to be Macedonians, never had such a war?
What's the matter, the UMD, George Sorros, and other loonies haven't gotten around to creating one for you to post here yet? Email them and let them know theres a major whole in their work of fiction.
You were under the Ottoman Empire, but you were Bulgarians back then. Tito hadn't come along with his grand plan.
The geographical region of Macedonia was divided between Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria, because these are the people who lived in the geographical region of Macedonia. There were of course Turks, but the majority of them were sent back to Turkey, and a large amount of Greeks sent to Greece in what is known as the Population Exchanges.
Actually you lie. There is a fourth, a tiny part. It is in Albania. Maybe you should check your propaganda maps more closely in future.
What happen on Balcan?
Bulgaria is assimilating macedonian people. Every student that want to study faculty in Bulgaria must write that his nationality is bulgarian!!!
Macedonian people can not register their own political party.
Why? Because there are too many macedonians and will make serious opstructions on the political field in Bulgaria.
We'll I don't know about any of that. But I do know that Bulgaria has offered citizenship to the people of FYROM living in FYROM it self, and tens of thousands of your own people have taken out Bulgarian citizenship. That should tell you something.
Continued part 3 from above due to character limit..
Yes, theres the entire Greek region of Macedonia, inhabited by Greeks, who we refer to as Makedones(Macedonians). We refer to them as such because of the land, the region, they live in. It is the same as someone calling George Bush a Texan, as he comes from Texas. It does not mean he is not American though.
There is no such thing as an ethnic Macedonian, because there is no Macedonian ethnicity nor nation. Deal with it.
What you post is utter rubbish.
In Greece, there is a political party called Rainbow Party. It receives around 6,000 votes at elections, if that. The people that vote for this party, are in fact, slavs(Bulgars) and former communists(hiding their affiliations in their closet), whose grandparents were part of the communists who sought to break away the Greek region of Macedonia and annex it to Yugoslavia, as part of Titos(with support of Stalin and Bulgaria when it was commie btw) plan to give Yugoslavia access to the Aegean. Thessaloniki is the gateway to the Balkans economically. This is what motivated the creation of "Macedonia SSR" and the brainwashing process creating these people who deny their Slavic Bulgarian origins.
Tens of thousands of people from FYROM enter Greece annually on work visas because they have no jobs in FYROM. So the claim they will lose their jobs in Greece is ridiculous. We are supporting you economically by giving your people JOBS in OUR COUNTRY because your government is too hopeless to do anything for your country other then piss off all your neighbours.
That military exercise, which was conducted within Greece's borders, is an annual event and has been occurring since BEFORE FYROM ever existed.
It is nothing new or special. It is just the Greek army training, in Greece.
If it scared you, then good, but that was not the intention of the exercises. You are not even rated as a threat. No major military unit is located near the border. All major assets are in the Aegean or Thrace.
The names you use or claim for Greek places, are in fact Bulgarian in origin, and are remnants of the Bulgarian empire.
And further to that, these places have Greek names to begin with, but were changed during the Bulgarian empire.
Yes indeed names were changed, they were changed back to their original Greek names when our lands were liberated yet again.
What is going on in Greece?
There are many many macedonians living in Greece!
Macedonians can not say that are macedonians because maybe some fool will fight them, maybe they will loose their job.
Simply the people are scared.(What about the military exsercise few months ago when greek army enter with thanks in macedonian viliges???)
Yes, theres the entire Greek region of Macedonia, inhabited by Greeks, who we refer to as Makedones(Macedonians). We refer to them as such because of the land, the region, they live in. It is the same as someone calling George Bush a Texan, as he comes from Texas. It does not mean he is not American though.
There is no such thing as an ethnic Macedonian, because there is no Macedonian ethnicity nor nation. Deal with it.
What you post is utter rubbish.
In Greece, there is a political party called Rainbow Party. It receives around 6,000 votes at elections, if that. The people that vote for this party, are in fact, slavs(Bulgars) and former communists(hiding their affiliations in their closet), whose grandparents were part of the communists who sought to break away the Greek region of Macedonia and annex it to Yugoslavia, as part of Titos(with support of Stalin and Bulgaria when it was commie btw) plan to give Yugoslavia access to the Aegean. Thessaloniki is the gateway to the Balkans economically. This is what motivated the creation of "Macedonia SSR" and the brainwashing process creating these people who deny their Slavic Bulgarian origins.
Tens of thousands of people from FYROM enter Greece annually on work visas because they have no jobs in FYROM. So the claim they will lose their jobs in Greece is ridiculous. We are supporting you economically by giving your people JOBS in OUR COUNTRY because your government is too hopeless to do anything for your country other then piss off all your neighbours.
That military exercise, which was conducted within Greece's borders, is an annual event and has been occurring since BEFORE FYROM ever existed.
It is nothing new or special. It is just the Greek army training, in Greece.
If it scared you, then good, but that was not the intention of the exercises. You are not even rated as a threat. No major military unit is located near the border. All major assets are in the Aegean or Thrace.
No one have human rights in Greece except greeks.
During these 60 years all macedonian names in Greece were changed into greek ones.
Whats is this?
In the civil war in Greece, 60 years ago (pls correct me if im wrong) there was etnical cleaning. Your people massacred a lot of macedonians, there are a lot living witness and pictures of that violence and many documents about a land property that you do not return to them to the real owners of the land.
The names you use or claim for Greek places, are in fact Bulgarian in origin, and are remnants of the Bulgarian empire.
And further to that, these places have Greek names to begin with, but were changed during the Bulgarian empire.
Yes indeed names were changed, they were changed back to their original Greek names when our lands were liberated yet again.
Continued again sorry for this guys, but I want to answer this racist liars propaganda.
So why does your president lay flowers at statues with maps of northern Greece included in some Greater FYROM stuck on the front?
Why does your diaspora use maps showing the same thing?
Why did you release bank notes with the Lefkos Pirgos(White Tower) of Thessaloniki?
Why do you use OUR Ancient symbols?
The Greek government didn't take any land from anybody. Certainly not a non existent people.
The only people in FYROM who demand land or property from Greece, are former communists who committed attrocities against the Greek people in their attempts to annex northern Greece, but when they were defeated they fled to Yugoslavia. Now they make these claims, claiming all sorts of hocus pocus bs.
Recognise what as a nation? You want us to recognise our northern province as a nation? And return billions of euros to fellow Greeks?
What about the Greeks of Monastiri, will you return billions of Euros to them and recognise Monastiri and surrounding areas in FYROM as independent? No?
Just curious, why do you think you are owed billions of euros?
Because some of your family a few decades ago committed attrocities against Greek people in Greece, and when they lost, they ran away like cowards to a communist country that would protect them?
Why don't they go to the International Court at the Hague, and file a case against Greece, for damages then?
Actually your country already did something similar but about NATO.
Everything will hopefully be aired at the Hague, and once and for all we can shut your propaganda up on the International stage were your president will be humiliated.
LMFAO more incoherent ranting from our delusional friend.
Yes, multicultural society. How many Asian grocery stores does FYROM have? Plenty in Greece.
How many immigrants from Africa, the Middle East, India does FYROM have? Go to Athens, you can see all the cultures of the world living together like in any other major western city.
Yes the Albanians have a guaranteed place in Parliament. Why don't you post about how they got that guarantee?
Remember the war in Tetovo?
Every nationality has rights guaranteed? Should we ask our Roma friends if this is true? Maybe they should fight a war too like the Albanians to get their rights guaranteed?
Please keep posting, you are doing me a favour. Your propaganda is so easy to respond to, anyone who does not know about the issue, can simply read your propaganda and then my replies, and they will be informed on what is going on, and why there is only one historical Macedonia located in Greece.
Now you said that we want a part of Greece. No dear friend, the people who lived there want to return to their homes, because they lived there with centuries and greek goverment took the land from them.
So why does your president lay flowers at statues with maps of northern Greece included in some Greater FYROM stuck on the front?
Why does your diaspora use maps showing the same thing?
Why did you release bank notes with the Lefkos Pirgos(White Tower) of Thessaloniki?
Why do you use OUR Ancient symbols?
The Greek government didn't take any land from anybody. Certainly not a non existent people.
The only people in FYROM who demand land or property from Greece, are former communists who committed attrocities against the Greek people in their attempts to annex northern Greece, but when they were defeated they fled to Yugoslavia. Now they make these claims, claiming all sorts of hocus pocus bs.
If you recognize Macedonia as a country and as a nation, you will have to return billions of euros to this people with documents.
Ofcourse the old macedonian part that is greek now it wont be returned.
Recognise what as a nation? You want us to recognise our northern province as a nation? And return billions of euros to fellow Greeks?
What about the Greeks of Monastiri, will you return billions of Euros to them and recognise Monastiri and surrounding areas in FYROM as independent? No?
Just curious, why do you think you are owed billions of euros?
Because some of your family a few decades ago committed attrocities against Greek people in Greece, and when they lost, they ran away like cowards to a communist country that would protect them?
Why don't they go to the International Court at the Hague, and file a case against Greece, for damages then?
Actually your country already did something similar but about NATO.
Everything will hopefully be aired at the Hague, and once and for all we can shut your propaganda up on the International stage were your president will be humiliated.
Other thing, your goverment is not talking about economics or better life of the people in Greece. The main topic is the name Macedonia!!! Which political party said something more against Macedonia, that party has bigger chances to win the next elections
Hold on my friend, Greece is democratic country right??
No human rights!!!
Violence!!!
LMFAO more incoherent ranting from our delusional friend.
Please come to Macedonia!
You will find beautifull multicultural society.
You will find that every nation has equal human rights and small nationalities have guaranteed place in the pairlament.
Yes, multicultural society. How many Asian grocery stores does FYROM have? Plenty in Greece.
How many immigrants from Africa, the Middle East, India does FYROM have? Go to Athens, you can see all the cultures of the world living together like in any other major western city.
Yes the Albanians have a guaranteed place in Parliament. Why don't you post about how they got that guarantee?
Remember the war in Tetovo?
Every nationality has rights guaranteed? Should we ask our Roma friends if this is true? Maybe they should fight a war too like the Albanians to get their rights guaranteed?
Please keep posting, you are doing me a favour. Your propaganda is so easy to respond to, anyone who does not know about the issue, can simply read your propaganda and then my replies, and they will be informed on what is going on, and why there is only one historical Macedonia located in Greece.
OMG!!!
First of all, you denie the facts and evidences from GREEK FAMOUS ANCIENT ORATORS which are the most valuable prooves and your talking is based on a gold coin with greek letters.
1. Why Demosten, the hellenic proud and glory said about Alexander's father Phillip: He is not a Hellen, he is not a friend or cousin to Hellenics, he is not even from a barbarian country, but he is Macedonian an evil person. (Demost. 3th speech against Phillip)
If Macedonians were Hellenics, and the history of Macedonia is a history of Hellada, why ancestor of Alexander ||| Macedonian (who in ancient times is called like that, and the name GREAT got much later) Alexander | (1st) was named Philhellen (that who is a friend with hellenic's, who love hellenic's), WHY HE IS Philhellen IF HE IS A HELLEN?
If Macedonians were hellenics, than they should talk hellenic or simmilar to hellenic, but why than the greek soldiers did not understand the language of Alexander ||| Macedonian? (you can read more from the books of greek ancient historians)
DO YOU HAVE PROOVES AGAINST THIS?
Macedonia was never a country???
Macedonia has always been a country and it exist more than 2000 years.
There were many wars during these 2000 years, whole Balcan was in war, each country was in war.
Lets say: Macedonia was under Bulgarian nazi ocupation. Grab our teritory. What will they say? There is realy Macedonia, sorry we grab a part from it and the people are realy macedonians, we are very sorry we will return it back. My god, have you ever read about the Balcan history???
Assimilation my friend, it is 2009 and there is still assimilation there.
About Greece.
I do not talk about the names of the places, i talk about the names of the people. All names are changed!!!
Isn't this assimilation?????
Ofcourse you will tell me that this is not true, but you can not denie the prooves of many living people.
That's why Greece is the purest nation in the world about 98% of Greeks, with etnical cleaning and assimilation
Greece and Bulgaria are in EU and they should be example for democracy.
You are not democratic country at all.
You denie the existing of people, and denie the right of people to say who they realy are!
About the war exercise! Isnt it vorbiden to be war exercise in place with people? The tanks to drive in place with people? To demonstrate power to the people? To scare them? There are many videos my friend and don't denie that.
About the flowers and the grave of Goce Delcev.
Do you know who was Goce Delcev?
A person who organize the macedonian people against the otoman empire.
Long time in the history, Macedonia was big country and these were the last real borders where Goce Delcev was living in that time.
He was fighter for that country in that time.
So what is your problem with that??? People brought flower on his grave, it is only a historic monument.
Is there now such map for Great Macedonia as you say?
Only in your propaganda's.
About the multicultural society.
Macedonia is 2 milion of people now.
Plese come in our main city and you will see diferent shops which owners are asians, africans
Maybe not many as in Greece (there are 874689749856747 citicenz) but yes they are
About the war in Tetovo?
You dont know anything about the war in Tetovo. They were not albanians, they were terorists from Kosovo, there were old american generals, there were from Al-qaeda. It was not a war for human rights because that was only a mask. and all the people have the human rights in Macedonia a long before that so i assure you that the war was not for that.
I did not say about guaranteed place in pairalament for the albanians, i said about the other minorities and nationalities that dont have enough votes to have a place in the pairalament.
I have a question for you.
How long time Greece call Macedonia FYROM? Since when
First of all, you denie the facts and evidences from GREEK FAMOUS ANCIENT ORATORS which are the most valuable prooves and your talking is based on a gold coin with greek letters.
1. Why Demosten, the hellenic proud and glory said about Alexander's father Phillip: He is not a Hellen, he is not a friend or cousin to Hellenics, he is not even from a barbarian country, but he is Macedonian an evil person. (Demost. 3th speech against Phillip)
If Macedonians were Hellenics, and the history of Macedonia is a history of Hellada, why ancestor of Alexander ||| Macedonian (who in ancient times is called like that, and the name GREAT got much later) Alexander | (1st) was named Philhellen (that who is a friend with hellenic's, who love hellenic's), WHY HE IS Philhellen IF HE IS A HELLEN?
If Macedonians were hellenics, than they should talk hellenic or simmilar to hellenic, but why than the greek soldiers did not understand the language of Alexander ||| Macedonian? (you can read more from the books of greek ancient historians)
DO YOU HAVE PROOVES AGAINST THIS?
Macedonia was never a country???
Macedonia has always been a country and it exist more than 2000 years.
There were many wars during these 2000 years, whole Balcan was in war, each country was in war.
Lets say: Macedonia was under Bulgarian nazi ocupation. Grab our teritory. What will they say? There is realy Macedonia, sorry we grab a part from it and the people are realy macedonians, we are very sorry we will return it back. My god, have you ever read about the Balcan history???
Assimilation my friend, it is 2009 and there is still assimilation there.
About Greece.
I do not talk about the names of the places, i talk about the names of the people. All names are changed!!!
Isn't this assimilation?????
Ofcourse you will tell me that this is not true, but you can not denie the prooves of many living people.
That's why Greece is the purest nation in the world about 98% of Greeks, with etnical cleaning and assimilation
Greece and Bulgaria are in EU and they should be example for democracy.
You are not democratic country at all.
You denie the existing of people, and denie the right of people to say who they realy are!
About the war exercise! Isnt it vorbiden to be war exercise in place with people? The tanks to drive in place with people? To demonstrate power to the people? To scare them? There are many videos my friend and don't denie that.
About the flowers and the grave of Goce Delcev.
Do you know who was Goce Delcev?
A person who organize the macedonian people against the otoman empire.
Long time in the history, Macedonia was big country and these were the last real borders where Goce Delcev was living in that time.
He was fighter for that country in that time.
So what is your problem with that??? People brought flower on his grave, it is only a historic monument.
Is there now such map for Great Macedonia as you say?
Only in your propaganda's.
About the multicultural society.
Macedonia is 2 milion of people now.
Plese come in our main city and you will see diferent shops which owners are asians, africans
Maybe not many as in Greece (there are 874689749856747 citicenz) but yes they are
About the war in Tetovo?
You dont know anything about the war in Tetovo. They were not albanians, they were terorists from Kosovo, there were old american generals, there were from Al-qaeda. It was not a war for human rights because that was only a mask. and all the people have the human rights in Macedonia a long before that so i assure you that the war was not for that.
I did not say about guaranteed place in pairalament for the albanians, i said about the other minorities and nationalities that dont have enough votes to have a place in the pairalament.
I have a question for you.
How long time Greece call Macedonia FYROM? Since when
Originally posted by BLV12
continued from above post because of character limit..
What happen on Balcan?
Bulgaria is assimilating macedonian people. Every student that want to study faculty in Bulgaria must write that his nationality is bulgarian!!!
Macedonian people can not register their own political party.
Why? Because there are too many macedonians and will make serious opstructions on the political field in Bulgaria.
We'll I don't know about any of that. But I do know that Bulgaria has offered citizenship to the people of FYROM living in FYROM it self, and tens of thousands of your own people have taken out Bulgarian citizenship. That should tell you something.
About the citizenship, people take passports to leave the country and not to leave in Bulgaria, they want to go to work abroad because there is no economic progress here.
The passports are with double nationality!!!
Why Bulgaria do not allow a macedonian political party to be registered in Bulgaria?
Too many votes now And if some bulgarian political party want to win on the elections, than the macedonian party will have big influence because there are too many living macedonians in Bulgaria, also many with doble nationality
Bulgaria is not scared from Macedonians, neither Greece is scared from macedonians, only 50 people that are politicians are making the problems.
Till when we will argue for such stupid things?
Lets kill half world that are from other religion? Why dont you say that?
It is 2009 and still assimilation, Greece and Bulgaria are in EU!!!
Shame on you!
reply to post by Macedonia
Ok I have replied anonymously but my posts haven't been up yet so I joined because i can't stand the crap I am reading by you!!!!
READ CAREFULLY
1. Demonsthen NEVER said Macedonians (as in the people) were barbarians, but commented on their political system of which athenians did think was inferior!!! Why don't you post his original quotes and see for yourself???!!!
I can also show you quotes of athenians even calling the spartans barbarians! Does that mean the spartans were not Greek???
2. Macedonians spoke Doric Greek A NORTH WESTERN GREEK DIALECT!!! I have no idea were you are getting that "Alexander and the Greeks did not understand each other????" from.
ARTIFACTS AND ANCIENT INSCRIPTIONS PROVE THE MACEDONIANS SPOKE GREEK FOR PETES SAKE!!!!
EVEN AT THE FRONT OF YOUR GOVERNMENT BUILDING, YOU IDIOTS HAVE PLACED A MACEDONIAN INSCRIPTION WHICH HAS GREEK WRITING ON IT!!! ITS PATHETIC YOU, WHO CLAIMS TO BE "MACEDONIAN" CAN'T EVEN READ IT! YET A 10 YEAR OLD GREEK KID CAN!
3. Macedonia was an ancient Hellenic kingdom!
Its even more pathetic that you don't even realise that back then there were no countries!!!
Everyone knows Greece was made up of collective kingdoms who fought each other, but shared the same language, culture etc! ..and like the macedonians together they called themselves Hellenes! *Snip*
4. You talk about returning "land" back!!!! WHAT LAND!! LAND THAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN GREEK???! ...Macedonia was LIBERATED from the Ottoman empire in 1913!! Back then there was no "macedonian" nation yet alone a "macedonian" people so it couldnt of been "stolen" from "macedonians" LOL! ...why is it that there IS NO reference or documents by travelers to the region of a "macedonian" ethnicity or yet an army fighting the ottoman empire like the rest of peoples back then???!!!!
You know why!!!!? Because Tito didn't create the lie yet and you were still proud Bulgarians!!!
5. During the Ottoman Empire names of cities and towns were changed to Turkish! ...when liberated, names were changed back to their original in Greek!!!!
Why is it instead of using the original macedonian (as in Hellenic names) of the towns as shown even on inscriptions, you use Bulgarian and Turkish??? ..some "macedonian" you are!
6. It's a fact that Greece is a mostly a homogenous country due to population exchanges, with only one muslim minority in thrace because they have the numbers to be classified as such! Every one who isn't Greek is an immigrant and fact is numbers are increasing!!!
Again I seriusly do not understant your point, so if a country is not multicultural is "undemocradic" lol!!! btw athens is way more multicultural than skopje...
7. What war exercise are you talking about!!! is FYROM going to deny Greece now what it can do on its own soil???!!! ...you don't even now what happened ..just delusional thoughts! You should know that the exercise happens every year! (as mentioned, even before your country was created!). The reasons people protested was because of environmental issues and absolutely nothing had to do with FYROM!!!! Stop believing the lies of your governemnt that it was an uprising of "makedoskis""!!! lol........
8. Golce Delcev was Bulgarian (he said it himself) ...enough said!!
Spare us the "back then macedonia was a big country" crap, because there never was one and no "macedonian" ethnicity is recorded back then!!! ....only the ottoman regions which greeks made the majority!
...Seriously your blatand lies and absence of even basic grasp in history is pathetic and I have never came across such uneducated commnets before!
MOD Note Review This Link: Announcement: Civility & Decorum are Expected
[edit on 1/6/2009 by semperfortis]
[edit on 7-1-2009 by s_m_1]
Ok I have replied anonymously but my posts haven't been up yet so I joined because i can't stand the crap I am reading by you!!!!
READ CAREFULLY
1. Demonsthen NEVER said Macedonians (as in the people) were barbarians, but commented on their political system of which athenians did think was inferior!!! Why don't you post his original quotes and see for yourself???!!!
I can also show you quotes of athenians even calling the spartans barbarians! Does that mean the spartans were not Greek???
2. Macedonians spoke Doric Greek A NORTH WESTERN GREEK DIALECT!!! I have no idea were you are getting that "Alexander and the Greeks did not understand each other????" from.
ARTIFACTS AND ANCIENT INSCRIPTIONS PROVE THE MACEDONIANS SPOKE GREEK FOR PETES SAKE!!!!
EVEN AT THE FRONT OF YOUR GOVERNMENT BUILDING, YOU IDIOTS HAVE PLACED A MACEDONIAN INSCRIPTION WHICH HAS GREEK WRITING ON IT!!! ITS PATHETIC YOU, WHO CLAIMS TO BE "MACEDONIAN" CAN'T EVEN READ IT! YET A 10 YEAR OLD GREEK KID CAN!
3. Macedonia was an ancient Hellenic kingdom!
Its even more pathetic that you don't even realise that back then there were no countries!!!
Everyone knows Greece was made up of collective kingdoms who fought each other, but shared the same language, culture etc! ..and like the macedonians together they called themselves Hellenes! *Snip*
4. You talk about returning "land" back!!!! WHAT LAND!! LAND THAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN GREEK???! ...Macedonia was LIBERATED from the Ottoman empire in 1913!! Back then there was no "macedonian" nation yet alone a "macedonian" people so it couldnt of been "stolen" from "macedonians" LOL! ...why is it that there IS NO reference or documents by travelers to the region of a "macedonian" ethnicity or yet an army fighting the ottoman empire like the rest of peoples back then???!!!!
You know why!!!!? Because Tito didn't create the lie yet and you were still proud Bulgarians!!!
5. During the Ottoman Empire names of cities and towns were changed to Turkish! ...when liberated, names were changed back to their original in Greek!!!!
Why is it instead of using the original macedonian (as in Hellenic names) of the towns as shown even on inscriptions, you use Bulgarian and Turkish??? ..some "macedonian" you are!
6. It's a fact that Greece is a mostly a homogenous country due to population exchanges, with only one muslim minority in thrace because they have the numbers to be classified as such! Every one who isn't Greek is an immigrant and fact is numbers are increasing!!!
Again I seriusly do not understant your point, so if a country is not multicultural is "undemocradic" lol!!! btw athens is way more multicultural than skopje...
7. What war exercise are you talking about!!! is FYROM going to deny Greece now what it can do on its own soil???!!! ...you don't even now what happened ..just delusional thoughts! You should know that the exercise happens every year! (as mentioned, even before your country was created!). The reasons people protested was because of environmental issues and absolutely nothing had to do with FYROM!!!! Stop believing the lies of your governemnt that it was an uprising of "makedoskis""!!! lol........
8. Golce Delcev was Bulgarian (he said it himself) ...enough said!!
Spare us the "back then macedonia was a big country" crap, because there never was one and no "macedonian" ethnicity is recorded back then!!! ....only the ottoman regions which greeks made the majority!
...Seriously your blatand lies and absence of even basic grasp in history is pathetic and I have never came across such uneducated commnets before!
MOD Note Review This Link: Announcement: Civility & Decorum are Expected
[edit on 1/6/2009 by semperfortis]
[edit on 7-1-2009 by s_m_1]
Originally posted by Macedonia
Read the books man and TURN ON your brain because it is washed.
NO you need to open up your brain because you have no idea what you are talking about!!
Originally posted by Macedonia
How can you say that ancient Macedonia is hellenic kingdom?
Macedonia was a COUNTRY a KINGDOM, In Greece there were only few policies that Philip|| tried to unite them by the Corint agreement!!!!!!!
Macedonia was A HELLENIC KINGDOM!! and you even said it Philip tried to unite the Greeks!!!! Can you see now why greeks take great pride at their macedonians! Its because after years of fighting that took place between greek peoples the macedonians were the first of the greek people to attempt a united Hellas!!
...and don't tell me "go ask a profesor" because I studied classical societies and no academic agrees with FYROM views yet alone your ignorant arguements and assumptions!
Originally posted by Macedonia
Or ask Kostas Karamanlis your prime minister about his grandmother that IS PURE MACEDONIAN: I am sure that you don't know that and it is top secret because all goverment will go down.
Prime minister Karamanlis is macedonian, being that he originates from makedonia, greece's province!!! ...and his grandmother "macedonian"??? as in your type???? lolll hahahaha funniest thing I have ever came across!
Originally posted by Macedonia
We are 2009 year after BC, so about 2300 years the population is mixed in whole world, there is no pure nationality, oh im sorry only Greeks are pure nationality and there are some imigrants that live in Greece, there is no nationality with human rights that live in Greece.
No one is claiming Greeks are pure, I'm sure there's turkish and slavic mix! But the fact is, Greece is made up of people who share the same values, culture and history through many centuries! ...and studies have proven Greeks share a remarkable continuity that can only be surpased by that of the Chinese!
Fact is (as mentioned) Greece is a mostly homogenous country due to the population exchanges that occured!
Please spare us the "there's no human rights in greece...." you really sound pathetic!
Originally posted by Macedonia
YOU DENIE THE RIGHT OF EXISTENCE OF OTHER PEOPLE IN YOUR TERITORY, BULGARIA IS DOING THE SAME!!!
No one is denying your peoples existance but at the same time you cannot expect greece to recognise you as "macedonians" while that name is used already for greek people!!!
(Its as if mexico breaks up into nations, one of those nations names itself texas and americans recognise that hispanic group of people as texans!)
Greece has invested millions in your country, offers jobs and has even agreed to finding a composite, matuable acceptable name! I say drop the appropriation of Hellenic history as yours and accept something like slavmacedonian so we can move forward!
If you still can't comprehent this and that you are stealing another nations part of its identity then all I can say is shame on YOU!!!!
[edit on 7-1-2009 by s_m_1]
Originally posted by Macedonia
How can you say that ancient Macedonia is hellenic kingdom?
Macedonia was a COUNTRY a KINGDOM, In Greece there were only few policies that Philip|| tried to unite them by the Corint agreement!!!!!!!
macedonia was A HELLENIC KINGDOM!! and you even said it philip tried to unite the greeks!!!! can you see now why greeks take great pride at their macedonians because after years of fighting that took place between greek peoples the macedonians were the first to attempt a united hellas!!
and dont tell me go ask a proffesor because i studied classical societies and no academic agrees with fyroms view yet alone your assumptions!
I show you facts, but obviously you dont want to accept the facts and prooves. Hellas was under Macedonia!!! Philip expand his kingdom. All the treasure that your country should spend to military funds was going for techno party and when Philip conquere you, he share all the treasure to greeks. Divide and rule. He was higly appreciated than!!!
Don't forget these things! So i say again there were 2 diferent countries and two diferent nationalities check the most appreciated prooves!.
Originally posted by Macedonia
Or ask Kostas Karamanlis your prime minister about his grandmother that IS PURE MACEDONIAN: I am sure that you don't know that and it is top secret because all goverment will go down.
prime minister karamanlis is macedonian being that he originates from makedonia greece's province!!! and his grandmother "macedonian"??? as in your type???? lolll hahahaha funniest thing i have ever came accross
Greek province??? Greece was macedonian province, have more sence and logic because Greese was under macedonian kingdom, Philip was trying to expand his kingdom when he try to unite the greek polices. He share the treasure to all greeks. Thats why the macedonian army was composed with macedonian , greek and other nationality soldiers! All people loved him! Read more please!
no one is claming greeks are pure im sure theres turkish and slavic mix! but the fact is greece is made up of people who share the same values culture and history through many years and studies have proven greeks share a remarkable continuity that can only be surpased by that of the chinese!
Fact is as mentioned that greece is a mostly homogenous coutry due to the population exchanges and spare us theres no human rights in greece.... please you sound pathetic
If we are SLAVO-MACEDONIANS than you are SLAVO-TURKISH GREEKS!
Originally posted by Macedonia
YOU DENIE THE RIGHT OF EXISTENCE OF OTHER PEOPLE IN YOUR TERITORY, BULGARIA IS DOING THE SAME!!!
no one is denying your peoples existance!!! Greece has invested millions in your country, offers jobs and has even agreed to finding a composite matuable acceptable name!...
You denie the existence of macedonian nationality on greek teritory!
We are Macedonia, the north Greek province is grabbed part from Macedonia, in the north part of Greece there was ethnical cleaning and massacar. But this is past!!! Macedonia doesnt want the north part of Greece back! Please understand that. Everything is past! Macedonia with these borders now want to go forward, to have economic progress, to enter EU and NATO, but obviously you have a problem with the name that you say it is a greek. Why Macedonia is called FYROM and from when you called it FYROM? What will you say for that we have changed our country flag only to fill out greek appetences for which there is no basis and all the historian prooves are on Macedonian side??? You are just pigheaded man that is blind in the front of facts and prooves![/colo
Please answer me on these questions:
1. What do you say about arguments that i show what Demosten wrote?
Is it true or false?
2. Macedonia was divided between Greece, Bulgaria and other countries(not important now) and the biggest part now belongs to Greece. This is the part from our borders today down to Thessalonikki (including Thess.)
Did Greece take a part from Macedonia? True or false? (try to remmeber that you confirmed in one of your posts that Macedonia was divided.)
3. Was there etnical cleaning, take over the homes and lands of people that are no greeks, changing their personal names and the names of places into greeks with force?
True or False?
4. In the north of Greece you tell that live greek macedonians, people from greek province. If they are really greeks, why they speak other language than the greek one?
True or False?
5. What do you say about my arguments, are they real or only immagination?
If you dont answer on these real proves and facts which can confirm thousands of people including real greeks that know what really happen, THAN YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO POST ANY COMMENTS ON THIS TOPIC ANYMORE!!!
1. What do you say about arguments that i show what Demosten wrote?
Is it true or false?
2. Macedonia was divided between Greece, Bulgaria and other countries(not important now) and the biggest part now belongs to Greece. This is the part from our borders today down to Thessalonikki (including Thess.)
Did Greece take a part from Macedonia? True or false? (try to remmeber that you confirmed in one of your posts that Macedonia was divided.)
3. Was there etnical cleaning, take over the homes and lands of people that are no greeks, changing their personal names and the names of places into greeks with force?
True or False?
4. In the north of Greece you tell that live greek macedonians, people from greek province. If they are really greeks, why they speak other language than the greek one?
True or False?
5. What do you say about my arguments, are they real or only immagination?
If you dont answer on these real proves and facts which can confirm thousands of people including real greeks that know what really happen, THAN YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO POST ANY COMMENTS ON THIS TOPIC ANYMORE!!!
The insults stop now
Any further "snide" comments or insults "slipped in" will result in the entire post being removed and the poster possibly warned.
Fair warning
Semper
Any further "snide" comments or insults "slipped in" will result in the entire post being removed and the poster possibly warned.
Fair warning
Semper
"(slav)macedonian" you are SERIOUSLY BRAINWASHED!!!!!
YOU HAVE NO ARGUEMENTS you post delusional dribble!!!
Did you even read what i wrote about demosthenis??? I have answered you and provided the truth!
Once again, Demosthenes called the macedonians POLITICAL SYSTEM barbarian, as it was considered inferior to the democrasy of the athenians!!! He had also called the spartans barbarians because of that!
...and in fact many sources show athenians calling many other greek kingdoms barbarian!
Tell me, because he called the spartans barbarian too, were the spartans not greek???
I confirmed what??? That macedonia is divided??? Macedonia and its true historical boundaries and ancient region directly fall within Greece! so NO macedonia is NOT divided!!
Now during the Ottoman Empire, the region of macedonia grew larger than its historical area! ...the Greek army then LIBERATED it in 1913 after numerous requests (you would like to know this) from the "temprorary govenrment of macedonia" which was ruled by who else?? -the real macedonians =Greeks, who demanded macedonia be joined with Hellas!
Back then YOU are no were to be found! Your people were still proud Bulgarians, fighting for Bulgaria's interests in macedonia!
...Of course the biggest and historic part went to Greece, because it always belonged to it and Greeks made the majority!
You really need to realise that MACEDONIA WAS A REGION NOT A COUNTRY!!!! AND DURING THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE IT CONSISTED OF THE VILAYETS OF THESSALONIKI AND MONASTIR!
...back then there were no "makedoskis"!!!! provide me one document ONE! that shows a "macedonian" ethnicity back then! ...and tell me were was the "macedonian" army to protect their "supposed" country! lol
OF COURSE THERE WAS NO ETHNICAL CLEANSING. THE IDEA THAT THERE WAS IS FYROM PROPAGANDA TO DEFEND COMMUNIST WAR CRIMINALS!
Once borders were set POPULATION EXCHANGES OCCURED!!
All this was done LEGALLY through international treaties!
...Right after that some of your ancestors who chose to stay back decided to side with communists so for one last chance to crab macedonia and hand it over to communism! Those people were charged with war crimes against the greek nation! To not face charges they fled to Yugalsavia and thats why they are not allowed back in Greece!
What are you talking about????!!! read carefully!!
In macedonia live Greeks (makedones)! (just like americans live in texas)
They don't speak any other language but Greek and have nothing to do with FYROM nor want anything to do with your delusional people!
Your arguements are imaginations! You obviouslty have no idea of ancient history or what happened during the balcan wars!
You really need to spend a serious amound of time in the library, thats all....
[edit on 7-1-2009 by s_m_1]
Originally posted by Macedonia
Please answer me on these questions:
1. What do you say about arguments that i show what Demosten wrote?
Is it true or false?
YOU HAVE NO ARGUEMENTS you post delusional dribble!!!
Did you even read what i wrote about demosthenis??? I have answered you and provided the truth!
Once again, Demosthenes called the macedonians POLITICAL SYSTEM barbarian, as it was considered inferior to the democrasy of the athenians!!! He had also called the spartans barbarians because of that!
...and in fact many sources show athenians calling many other greek kingdoms barbarian!
Tell me, because he called the spartans barbarian too, were the spartans not greek???
Originally posted by Macedonia
2. Macedonia was divided between Greece, Bulgaria and other countries(not important now) and the biggest part now belongs to Greece. This is the part from our borders today down to Thessalonikki (including Thess.)
Did Greece take a part from Macedonia? True or false? (try to remmeber that you confirmed in one of your posts that Macedonia was divided.)
I confirmed what??? That macedonia is divided??? Macedonia and its true historical boundaries and ancient region directly fall within Greece! so NO macedonia is NOT divided!!
Now during the Ottoman Empire, the region of macedonia grew larger than its historical area! ...the Greek army then LIBERATED it in 1913 after numerous requests (you would like to know this) from the "temprorary govenrment of macedonia" which was ruled by who else?? -the real macedonians =Greeks, who demanded macedonia be joined with Hellas!
Back then YOU are no were to be found! Your people were still proud Bulgarians, fighting for Bulgaria's interests in macedonia!
...Of course the biggest and historic part went to Greece, because it always belonged to it and Greeks made the majority!
You really need to realise that MACEDONIA WAS A REGION NOT A COUNTRY!!!! AND DURING THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE IT CONSISTED OF THE VILAYETS OF THESSALONIKI AND MONASTIR!
...back then there were no "makedoskis"!!!! provide me one document ONE! that shows a "macedonian" ethnicity back then! ...and tell me were was the "macedonian" army to protect their "supposed" country! lol
Originally posted by Macedonia
3. Was there etnical cleaning, take over the homes and lands of people that are no greeks, changing their personal names and the names of places into greeks with force?
True or False?
OF COURSE THERE WAS NO ETHNICAL CLEANSING. THE IDEA THAT THERE WAS IS FYROM PROPAGANDA TO DEFEND COMMUNIST WAR CRIMINALS!
Once borders were set POPULATION EXCHANGES OCCURED!!
All this was done LEGALLY through international treaties!
...Right after that some of your ancestors who chose to stay back decided to side with communists so for one last chance to crab macedonia and hand it over to communism! Those people were charged with war crimes against the greek nation! To not face charges they fled to Yugalsavia and thats why they are not allowed back in Greece!
Originally posted by Macedonia
4. In the north of Greece you tell that live greek macedonians, people from greek province. If they are really greeks, why they speak other language than the greek one?
True or False?
What are you talking about????!!! read carefully!!
In macedonia live Greeks (makedones)! (just like americans live in texas)
They don't speak any other language but Greek and have nothing to do with FYROM nor want anything to do with your delusional people!
Originally posted by Macedonia
5. What do you say about my arguments, are they real or only immagination?
Your arguements are imaginations! You obviouslty have no idea of ancient history or what happened during the balcan wars!
You really need to spend a serious amound of time in the library, thats all....
[edit on 7-1-2009 by s_m_1]
reply to post by Macedonia
It's funny how this topic never goes away. As for my two cents, the people in that region (Greece/FYROM/Bulgaria) are pretty much the same religion, eat the same foods and are really not that different from each other. They are all egomaniacs and love to argue over everything and anything while having a drink together...I love it!
It's funny how this topic never goes away. As for my two cents, the people in that region (Greece/FYROM/Bulgaria) are pretty much the same religion, eat the same foods and are really not that different from each other. They are all egomaniacs and love to argue over everything and anything while having a drink together...I love it!
I dont have time to explane on someone who is blind.
READ MORE AND DONT LIE!!! Dont let someone to wash your brain. When i talk about something, first i want to be 100% that is correct.
You can not go against a FACT when you dont have ANTI-FACT!!!
You are posting only stories told by your politicians.
You are so funny when you talk like that, but anyone in the world who want to be 100% sure, can walk personaly in your north of Greece, and personaly ask what is really going on there.
Obviously you dont know nothing about the works of famous greek orators and nothing about the Balcan wars.
Exchange of people, they go there, and those go there! My god, it was legal than?!
Like this??==> USA crushed Iraq for oil and gold, but legally!!! funny
When you will realise why politic is called politic, than we can talk more.
[edit on 7-1-2009 by Macedonia]
Originally posted by Macedonia
I dont have time to explane on someone who is blind.
READ MORE AND DONT LIE!!! Dont let someone to wash your brain. When i talk about something, first i want to be 100% that is correct.
YOU EXPLAINED AND I HAVE ANSWERED TO YOUR LIES!!!
Up to now nothing you have said is true and NO WAY 100% correct so cut the crap!
...and check what in northern greece???? I LIVED IN NORTHERN GREECE, IN MAKEDONIA! please tell me what goes on in northern Greece...
Originally posted by Macedonia
Obviously you dont know nothing about the works of famous greek orators and nothing about the Balcan wars.
Exchange of people, they go there, and those go there! funny
So I take it that you do??? All you have showed me is that you have no idea of ancient history or what ancient macedonia/greece was!
...if you think you are so sure, provide the ancient sources so we can all see!!!! I already told you that macedonians were a DORIC GREEK people COMPETED AT EXCLUSIVELY GREEK OLYMPIC GAMES AND ATTEMPTED TO UNITE THE GREEKS! Up to now you haven't aswered any of my arguements or of blv12's!!!! you are a joke and just by showing me that you are not familiar with the population exchanges proves to me you have no idea of what happened!!! ...the only thing you think is that "the bad bad greks stole our makedonskiii land gr gr gr.... lol lol
ANCIENT QUOTES ABOUT ALEXANDER AND THE MACEDONIANS
Plutarch “The Age of Alexander”
Penguin Classics
[1] On his father’s side Alexander was descended from Hercules through Caranus, and on his mother’s from Aeacus through Neoptolemus: so much is accepted by all authorities without question.
HMM ..ALEXANDER DESCENDING FROM HERCULES! A GREEK FIGURE!
[11] Once arrived in Asia, he Alexander went up to Troy, sacrificed to Athena and poured libations to the heroes of the Greek army. He annointed with oil the column which marks the grave of Achilles, ran a race by it naked with his companions, as the custom is, and then crowned it with a wreath: he also remarked that Achilles was happy in having found a faithful friend while he lived and a great poet to sing of his deeds after his death. While he was walking about the city and looking at its ancient remains, somebody asked him whether he wished to see the lyre which had once belonged to Paris. I think nothing of that lyre, he said, but i wish i could see Achilles’ lyre, which he played when he sang of the glorious deeds of brave men.
[12] At the same time he [Alexander] was anxious to give the other Greek states a share in the victory. He therefore sent the Atheneans in particular three hundred of the shields captured from the enemy and over the rest of the spoils he had this proud inscription engraved:
Alexander, the son of Philip, and all the Greeks, with the exception of the Spartans, won these spoils of war from the barbarians who dwell in Asia.
...I WONDER WHY ALEXANDER IS MENTIONED AS SON OF GREEKS?
__________________________
ALEXANDER I TALKING ABOUT GREECE!
Alexander I, king of Macedon
Quote:
Men of Athens... Had I not greatly AT HEART the COMMON welfare of GREECE I should not have come to tell you; but I AM MYSELF GREEK by descent, and I would not willingly see Greece exchange freedom for slavery. ...If you prosper in this war, forget not to do something for my freedom; consider the risk I have run, out of zeal for the GREEK CAUSE, to acquaint you with what Mardonius intends, and to save you from being surprised by the barbarians. I am ALEXANDER of MACEDON.'
[Herodotus, The Histories, 9.45, translated by G.Rawlinson]
__________________________
Alexander III (the Great)
In his letter to the king of the Persians:
Your ancestors invaded Macedonia and the rest of Greece and did US great harm, though WE had done them no prior injury [...] I have been appointed hegemon of the Greeks [...]
(Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander II,14,4)
__________________________
...............There are Greek troops, to be sure, in Persian service --
but how different is their cause from ours ! They will be fighting for
pay--- and not much of it at that; WE on the contrary shall fight for
GREECE, and our hearts will be in it.
As for our FOREIGN troops ---Thracians, Paeonians, Illyrians,
Agrianes --- they are the best and stoutest soldiers of Europe, and they will find as their opponents the slackest and softest of the tribes of
Asia.
Arrian (The Campaigns of Alexander) Alexander talking to the troops before the battle. Book 2-7 Penguin Classics. Page 112. Translation by Aubrey De Seliucourt.
__________________________
He set the Persian palace on fire, even though parmenio urged him to save it, arguing that it was not right to destroy his own property, and that the Asians would not thus devote themselves to him, if he seemed determined not to rule Asia, but only to pass through as a conqueror.
but Alexander replied that he intended to punish the persians for their invasion of Greece, the destruction of Athens, the burning of the temples, and all manner of terrible things done to the Greeks: because of these things, he was exacting revenge.
but Alexander does not seem to me to have acted prudently, nor can it be regarded as any kind of punishment upon Persians of long ago.
[Arrian Anab. 3. 18. 11-12].
[edit on 7-1-2009 by s_m_1]
Plutarch “The Age of Alexander”
Penguin Classics
[1] On his father’s side Alexander was descended from Hercules through Caranus, and on his mother’s from Aeacus through Neoptolemus: so much is accepted by all authorities without question.
HMM ..ALEXANDER DESCENDING FROM HERCULES! A GREEK FIGURE!
[11] Once arrived in Asia, he Alexander went up to Troy, sacrificed to Athena and poured libations to the heroes of the Greek army. He annointed with oil the column which marks the grave of Achilles, ran a race by it naked with his companions, as the custom is, and then crowned it with a wreath: he also remarked that Achilles was happy in having found a faithful friend while he lived and a great poet to sing of his deeds after his death. While he was walking about the city and looking at its ancient remains, somebody asked him whether he wished to see the lyre which had once belonged to Paris. I think nothing of that lyre, he said, but i wish i could see Achilles’ lyre, which he played when he sang of the glorious deeds of brave men.
[12] At the same time he [Alexander] was anxious to give the other Greek states a share in the victory. He therefore sent the Atheneans in particular three hundred of the shields captured from the enemy and over the rest of the spoils he had this proud inscription engraved:
Alexander, the son of Philip, and all the Greeks, with the exception of the Spartans, won these spoils of war from the barbarians who dwell in Asia.
...I WONDER WHY ALEXANDER IS MENTIONED AS SON OF GREEKS?
__________________________
ALEXANDER I TALKING ABOUT GREECE!
Alexander I, king of Macedon
Quote:
Men of Athens... Had I not greatly AT HEART the COMMON welfare of GREECE I should not have come to tell you; but I AM MYSELF GREEK by descent, and I would not willingly see Greece exchange freedom for slavery. ...If you prosper in this war, forget not to do something for my freedom; consider the risk I have run, out of zeal for the GREEK CAUSE, to acquaint you with what Mardonius intends, and to save you from being surprised by the barbarians. I am ALEXANDER of MACEDON.'
[Herodotus, The Histories, 9.45, translated by G.Rawlinson]
__________________________
Alexander III (the Great)
In his letter to the king of the Persians:
Your ancestors invaded Macedonia and the rest of Greece and did US great harm, though WE had done them no prior injury [...] I have been appointed hegemon of the Greeks [...]
(Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander II,14,4)
__________________________
...............There are Greek troops, to be sure, in Persian service --
but how different is their cause from ours ! They will be fighting for
pay--- and not much of it at that; WE on the contrary shall fight for
GREECE, and our hearts will be in it.
As for our FOREIGN troops ---Thracians, Paeonians, Illyrians,
Agrianes --- they are the best and stoutest soldiers of Europe, and they will find as their opponents the slackest and softest of the tribes of
Asia.
Arrian (The Campaigns of Alexander) Alexander talking to the troops before the battle. Book 2-7 Penguin Classics. Page 112. Translation by Aubrey De Seliucourt.
__________________________
He set the Persian palace on fire, even though parmenio urged him to save it, arguing that it was not right to destroy his own property, and that the Asians would not thus devote themselves to him, if he seemed determined not to rule Asia, but only to pass through as a conqueror.
but Alexander replied that he intended to punish the persians for their invasion of Greece, the destruction of Athens, the burning of the temples, and all manner of terrible things done to the Greeks: because of these things, he was exacting revenge.
but Alexander does not seem to me to have acted prudently, nor can it be regarded as any kind of punishment upon Persians of long ago.
[Arrian Anab. 3. 18. 11-12].
[edit on 7-1-2009 by s_m_1]
QUOTES ABOUT THE LANGUAGE OF THE MACEDONIANS BY NON-GREEKS
Aetolians, Acarnanians, Macedonians, men of the same language
[T. Livius XXXI,29, 15]
________________________
Testimonies of Non-Greek ancient people about ancient Macedonians
ROMANS
Quintus Curtius Rufus:
Alexander also summoned the delegates of the League of Corinth in order to have himself declared its Hegemon and, when he had obtained their support for his expedition against Persia, he returned to Macedonia (Diod. 17.4.9) The government of Persia had undergone a number of changes since Philip II first organized the Greek crusade against the East.
Julius Caesar:
"Caesar judged that he must drop everything else and pursue Pompey where he had betaken himself after his flight, so that he should not be able to gather more forces and renew, and he advanced daily as far as he could go with the cavalry and ordered a legion to follow shorter stages. An edict had been published in Pompey's name that all the younger men in the province [Macedonia], both Greeks and Roman citizens, should assemble to take an oath."
________________________
What Indians thought of Macedonians!
From the book "The Cambridge Shorter History of India" of Cambridge Un. Press - 1934
It is evident then, from the testimony of the epigraphic records, that Asoka ruled the whole of India except the extreme south, which was in the hands of the Cholas and Pāndyas. The inscriptions refer also to the nations on the borders of the empire. There were in the south, as already mentioned, the Cholas and Pāndyas, whose lands stretched as far as Tamraparni, i.e. Ceylon; while one edict adds two smaller border chiefs, the Keralaputra, i.e. the king of Kerāla or Malabar, and the Satiyaputra, not yet satisfactorily identified, but probably connected with the āndhras. Mentioned along with these independent kingdoms of the south are the Yavana king, Antiyaka, that is the Seleucid Antiochos Theos, whose lands marched with the Maurya empire on the north-west, and the other Greek kings who were his neighbours. On the outer fringe of the empire, but within the king's territory, were the Yonas, the Greeks in the lands ceded by Seleucus to Chandragupta; other Yavanas are named, along with the Gandhāras, apparently as independent; they were probably the rulers of southern Afghanistan and the land west of the upper Indus. The Kambojas, mentioned with them and located north-west of Gandhāra in the Hindu Kush, spoke a semi-Iranian language and were regarded by Hindus as only half-civilised. Another group of frontier peoples living within the king's territory but probably retaining some vestiges of autonomy, belonged to the south.
_______________________
THROUGHOUT HISTORY MACEDONIANS HAVE BEEN ANYTHING BUT HELLENIC AND THEIR HERITAGE BELONG TO THE GREEK NATION
NOT A SLAVIC COUNTRY CREATED A FEW DECADES AGO AND THOUGHT OF IN THE 1950s AS A WAY TO GRAB GREEK LAND!!!!
[edit on 7-1-2009 by s_m_1]
Aetolians, Acarnanians, Macedonians, men of the same language
[T. Livius XXXI,29, 15]
________________________
Testimonies of Non-Greek ancient people about ancient Macedonians
ROMANS
Quintus Curtius Rufus:
Alexander also summoned the delegates of the League of Corinth in order to have himself declared its Hegemon and, when he had obtained their support for his expedition against Persia, he returned to Macedonia (Diod. 17.4.9) The government of Persia had undergone a number of changes since Philip II first organized the Greek crusade against the East.
Julius Caesar:
"Caesar judged that he must drop everything else and pursue Pompey where he had betaken himself after his flight, so that he should not be able to gather more forces and renew, and he advanced daily as far as he could go with the cavalry and ordered a legion to follow shorter stages. An edict had been published in Pompey's name that all the younger men in the province [Macedonia], both Greeks and Roman citizens, should assemble to take an oath."
________________________
What Indians thought of Macedonians!
From the book "The Cambridge Shorter History of India" of Cambridge Un. Press - 1934
It is evident then, from the testimony of the epigraphic records, that Asoka ruled the whole of India except the extreme south, which was in the hands of the Cholas and Pāndyas. The inscriptions refer also to the nations on the borders of the empire. There were in the south, as already mentioned, the Cholas and Pāndyas, whose lands stretched as far as Tamraparni, i.e. Ceylon; while one edict adds two smaller border chiefs, the Keralaputra, i.e. the king of Kerāla or Malabar, and the Satiyaputra, not yet satisfactorily identified, but probably connected with the āndhras. Mentioned along with these independent kingdoms of the south are the Yavana king, Antiyaka, that is the Seleucid Antiochos Theos, whose lands marched with the Maurya empire on the north-west, and the other Greek kings who were his neighbours. On the outer fringe of the empire, but within the king's territory, were the Yonas, the Greeks in the lands ceded by Seleucus to Chandragupta; other Yavanas are named, along with the Gandhāras, apparently as independent; they were probably the rulers of southern Afghanistan and the land west of the upper Indus. The Kambojas, mentioned with them and located north-west of Gandhāra in the Hindu Kush, spoke a semi-Iranian language and were regarded by Hindus as only half-civilised. Another group of frontier peoples living within the king's territory but probably retaining some vestiges of autonomy, belonged to the south.
_______________________
THROUGHOUT HISTORY MACEDONIANS HAVE BEEN ANYTHING BUT HELLENIC AND THEIR HERITAGE BELONG TO THE GREEK NATION
NOT A SLAVIC COUNTRY CREATED A FEW DECADES AGO AND THOUGHT OF IN THE 1950s AS A WAY TO GRAB GREEK LAND!!!!
[edit on 7-1-2009 by s_m_1]
reply to post by s_m_1
ΔΗΜΟΣΘΕΝΟΥΣ
ΚΑΤΑ ΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΥ Γ’
…καὶ μὴν κἀκεῖνό γ' ἴστε, ὅτι ὅσα μὲν ὑπὸ Λακεδαιμονίων ἢ ὑφ' ἡμῶν ἔπασχον οἱ Ἕλληνες, ἀλλ' οὖν ὑπὸ γνησίων γ' ὄντων τῆς Ἑλλάδος ἠδικοῦντο, καὶ τὸν αὐτὸν τρόπον ἄν τις ὑπέλαβεν τοῦτο, ὥσπερ ἂν εἰ υἱὸς ἐν οὐσίᾳ πολλῇ γεγονὼς γνήσιος διῴκει τι μὴ καλῶς μηδ' ὀρθῶς, κατ' αὐτὸ μὲν τοῦτ' ἄξιον μέμψεως εἶναι καὶ κατηγορίας, ὡς δ' οὐ προσήκων ἢ ὡς οὐ κληρονόμος τούτων ὢν ταῦτ' ἐποίει, οὐκ ἐνεῖναι λέγειν. εἰ δέ γε δοῦλος ἢ ὑποβολιμαῖος τὰ μὴ προσήκοντ' ἀπώλλυε καὶ ἐλυμαίνετο, Ἡράκλεις ὅσῳ μᾶλλον δεινὸν καὶ ὀργῆς ἄξιον πάντες ἂν ἔφησαν εἶναι. ἀλλ' οὐχ ὑπὲρ Φιλίππου καὶ ὧν ἐκεῖνος πράττει νῦν, οὐχ οὕτως ἔχουσιν, οὐ μόνον οὐχ Ἕλληνος ὄντος οὐδὲ προσήκοντος οὐδὲν τοῖς Ἕλλησιν, ἀλλ' οὐδὲ βαρβάρου ἐντεῦθεν ὅθεν καλὸν εἰπεῖν, ἀλλ' ὀλέθρου Μακεδόνος, ὅθεν οὐδ' ἀνδράποδον σπουδαῖον οὐδὲν ἦν πρότερον πρίασθαι.
DEMOSTENES
AGAINST PHILIPP №3
...And know this too: Everything that the Hellens were suffering by the Lakedaemonians, or by us, they were suffering by blood of Hellas, and that is like, a son, real one, born in a rich house, is not managing the home like he should, so he deserves correction and objection, but you can’t say that he was doing all that as someone not close or successor of all that. But if a servant or a foster son destroys that, which not belongs to him, oh Heracles, how frightful and worthy of anger, anyone would say it is. But against Philipp and against what he does, they don’t say that, even that he is not a Hellen, nor anything close to the Hellens, and not even a barbarian from a country, worthy of saying something good about, but he is plague from Macedonia, from where a man, in earlier days, wouldn’t buy even a slave.
Where is yours?
ΔΗΜΟΣΘΕΝΟΥΣ
ΚΑΤΑ ΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΥ Γ’
…καὶ μὴν κἀκεῖνό γ' ἴστε, ὅτι ὅσα μὲν ὑπὸ Λακεδαιμονίων ἢ ὑφ' ἡμῶν ἔπασχον οἱ Ἕλληνες, ἀλλ' οὖν ὑπὸ γνησίων γ' ὄντων τῆς Ἑλλάδος ἠδικοῦντο, καὶ τὸν αὐτὸν τρόπον ἄν τις ὑπέλαβεν τοῦτο, ὥσπερ ἂν εἰ υἱὸς ἐν οὐσίᾳ πολλῇ γεγονὼς γνήσιος διῴκει τι μὴ καλῶς μηδ' ὀρθῶς, κατ' αὐτὸ μὲν τοῦτ' ἄξιον μέμψεως εἶναι καὶ κατηγορίας, ὡς δ' οὐ προσήκων ἢ ὡς οὐ κληρονόμος τούτων ὢν ταῦτ' ἐποίει, οὐκ ἐνεῖναι λέγειν. εἰ δέ γε δοῦλος ἢ ὑποβολιμαῖος τὰ μὴ προσήκοντ' ἀπώλλυε καὶ ἐλυμαίνετο, Ἡράκλεις ὅσῳ μᾶλλον δεινὸν καὶ ὀργῆς ἄξιον πάντες ἂν ἔφησαν εἶναι. ἀλλ' οὐχ ὑπὲρ Φιλίππου καὶ ὧν ἐκεῖνος πράττει νῦν, οὐχ οὕτως ἔχουσιν, οὐ μόνον οὐχ Ἕλληνος ὄντος οὐδὲ προσήκοντος οὐδὲν τοῖς Ἕλλησιν, ἀλλ' οὐδὲ βαρβάρου ἐντεῦθεν ὅθεν καλὸν εἰπεῖν, ἀλλ' ὀλέθρου Μακεδόνος, ὅθεν οὐδ' ἀνδράποδον σπουδαῖον οὐδὲν ἦν πρότερον πρίασθαι.
DEMOSTENES
AGAINST PHILIPP №3
...And know this too: Everything that the Hellens were suffering by the Lakedaemonians, or by us, they were suffering by blood of Hellas, and that is like, a son, real one, born in a rich house, is not managing the home like he should, so he deserves correction and objection, but you can’t say that he was doing all that as someone not close or successor of all that. But if a servant or a foster son destroys that, which not belongs to him, oh Heracles, how frightful and worthy of anger, anyone would say it is. But against Philipp and against what he does, they don’t say that, even that he is not a Hellen, nor anything close to the Hellens, and not even a barbarian from a country, worthy of saying something good about, but he is plague from Macedonia, from where a man, in earlier days, wouldn’t buy even a slave.
Where is yours?
[Plutarch. Alexander (ed. Bernadotte Perrin) XXXIII]
Alexander called a meeting of his generals the next day. He told them that no city was more hateful to the Greeks than Persepolis, the capital of the old kings of Persia, the city from which troops without number had poured forth, from which first Darius and then Xerxes had waged an unholy war on Europe. To appease the spirits of their forefathers they should wipe it out, he said.
(Quintus Curtius Rufus 5.8)
But he said, ‘If I were not Alexandros, I should be Diogenes’; that is to say: `If it were not my purpose to combine barbarian things with things HELLENIC, to traverse and civilize every continent, to search out the uttermost parts of land and sea, TO PUSH THE BOUNDS OF MACEDONIA TO THE FARTHEST OCEAN, AND TO DISSEMINATE AND SHOWER THE BLESSINGS OF HELLENIC JUSTICE and peace over every nation, I should not be content to sit quietly in the luxury of idle power, but I should emulate the frugality of Diogenes. But as things are, forgive me Diogenes, that I imitate Herakles, and emulate Perseus, and follow in the footsteps of Dionysos, the divine author and progenitor of my family, and DESIRE THAT VICTORIOUS HELLENES SHOULD DANCE AGAIN in India [...]"
Macedon
Macedon all during the age of the Greek city-states was an anomaly: it was a Greek kingdom. Located north-east of the Greek mainland and northwest of Asia Minor, Macedon was firmly entrenched on the European continent. The Macedonians were the Greeks who had to contend, then, with all the European tribes, many of which were war-like. So the Macedonians served as a kind of buffer for the Greeks, as the faithful Greeks who stood between the tribal Europeans and the Greek city-states. For all that, the Macedonians were deeply unappreciated by their fellow Greeks; they were looked on as no better than barbarians themselves, particularly since they had never developed or adopted the polis.
Alexander called a meeting of his generals the next day. He told them that no city was more hateful to the Greeks than Persepolis, the capital of the old kings of Persia, the city from which troops without number had poured forth, from which first Darius and then Xerxes had waged an unholy war on Europe. To appease the spirits of their forefathers they should wipe it out, he said.
(Quintus Curtius Rufus 5.8)
But he said, ‘If I were not Alexandros, I should be Diogenes’; that is to say: `If it were not my purpose to combine barbarian things with things HELLENIC, to traverse and civilize every continent, to search out the uttermost parts of land and sea, TO PUSH THE BOUNDS OF MACEDONIA TO THE FARTHEST OCEAN, AND TO DISSEMINATE AND SHOWER THE BLESSINGS OF HELLENIC JUSTICE and peace over every nation, I should not be content to sit quietly in the luxury of idle power, but I should emulate the frugality of Diogenes. But as things are, forgive me Diogenes, that I imitate Herakles, and emulate Perseus, and follow in the footsteps of Dionysos, the divine author and progenitor of my family, and DESIRE THAT VICTORIOUS HELLENES SHOULD DANCE AGAIN in India [...]"
Macedon
Macedon all during the age of the Greek city-states was an anomaly: it was a Greek kingdom. Located north-east of the Greek mainland and northwest of Asia Minor, Macedon was firmly entrenched on the European continent. The Macedonians were the Greeks who had to contend, then, with all the European tribes, many of which were war-like. So the Macedonians served as a kind of buffer for the Greeks, as the faithful Greeks who stood between the tribal Europeans and the Greek city-states. For all that, the Macedonians were deeply unappreciated by their fellow Greeks; they were looked on as no better than barbarians themselves, particularly since they had never developed or adopted the polis.
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