Macedonia and the Greece propaganda

Originally posted by defiler
geforce so you post from greek propaganda sites now.
Give me that evidence for iGenea from more trusted sources.
And about the ABECEDAR so you say that is for the minority in Greece.

We are not talking about the Greek slavic/Bilingual minorities ?! in here but about your pseudostates hostility against other Balkanik countries.

Ok, lets say that everything i presented in here is Greek propaganda(World Museums, linguists, historians, artifacts, newspapers from 18th, 19th, 20th, politicians from FYROM etc)

Is Barack Obama and the US gov also a part of that Greek propaganda?

www.opencongress.org...

A resolution expressing the sense of the Senate that the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) should stop the utilization of materials that violate provisions of the United Nations-brokered Interim Agreement between FYROM and Greece regarding "hostile activities or propaganda" and should work with the United Nations and Greece to achieve longstanding United States and United Nations policy goals of finding a mutually-acceptable official name for FYROM

And here u can read about Igenea and Villena.

Dropped genetics paper lacked scientific merit

Even though the controversial withdrawal of a paper on the genetic relatedness of Palestinians and Jews by the journal Human Immunology (see Nature 414, 382; 2001) is a minor episode compared with the tragedies caused by ethnic/religious conflicts over past decades, the issues involved are worth revisiting.

The stated purpose of the paper by Antonio Arnaiz-Villena et al. was to "examine the genetic relationships between the Palestinians and their neighbours (particularly the Jews) in order to: (1) discover the Palestinian origins, and (2) explain the historic basis of the present ... conflict between Palestinians and other Muslim countries with Israelite Jews".
They conclude: "Jews and Palestinians share a very similar HLA genetic pool that supports a common ancient Canaanite origin. Therefore, the origin of the long-lasting Jewish–Palestinian hostility is the fight for land in ancient times."

It is difficult to believe that knowledge of genes may help to explain the present conflict. Although population genetics can address issues of relatedness of populations, mating patterns, migrations and so on, obviously it cannot provide evidence about reasons for conflicts between people.

Our primary concern, however, is that the authors might be perceived to have been discriminated against for political, as opposed to legitimate scientific, reasons.

Even a cursory look at the paper's diagrams and trees immediately indicates that the authors make some extraordinary claims. They used a single genetic marker, HLA DRB1, for their analysis to construct a genealogical tree and map of 28 populations from Europe, the Middle East, Africa and Japan. Using results from the analysis of a single marker, particularly one likely to have undergone selection, for the purpose of reconstructing genealogies is unreliable and unacceptable practice in population genetics.

The limitations are made evident by the authors' extraordinary observations that Greeks are very similar to Ethiopians and east Africans but very distant from other south Europeans; and that the Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans. It is surprising that the authors were not puzzled by these anomalous results, which contradict history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups. Surely the ordinary process of refereeing would have saved the field from this dispute.

We believe that the paper should have been refused for publication on the simple grounds that it lacked scientific merit.

Neil Risch
Department of Genetics, Stanford University School of Medicine, Stanford, California 94305, USA

Alberto Piazza
Department of Genetics, Biology and Biochemistry, University of Torino, Via Santena 19, 10126 Torino, Italy

L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza
Department of Genetics, Stanford University School of Medicine, Stanford, California 94305, USA

www.nature.com...

And no nature.com is not a Greek site

Nature is the world's foremost weekly scientific journal and is the flagship journal for Nature Publishing Group (NPG). Launched in 1869, its original mission statement still leads the Group as we develop publications, explore opportunities arising from new technology and serve a growing audience of readers:

Take care my Bulgarian friend from FYROM(Former Yugoslav Republic of Ma...) and enjoy your Ex PMs admitting that your peolpe are slavs and have nothing to do with Alexander the Great and the ancient Greeks.

www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...

For those who are not from the Balkans, who think this is a funny issue, let me just point out some of the latest claims emanating from FYROM.

You thought the Jews were the chosen people of God?(if you believe in God etc)
Wrong, according to FYROM, they are the chosen people, not the Jews.

The White race...well, apparently, at least according to FYROM's intellectuals, they are the root of the white race, everyone else who is "white"(ie Caucasian), is their descendant.

So we have them claiming Greek people are of African/Black descent, and now to top that off if it wasn't already a joke, they claim they are the "original" white people.

Crazy stuff huh?

Get's crazier.
Scottish people are apparently their descendants. Actually I'm surprised they did not claim us Greeks are Scottish descendants, considering the Scottish traditional costume is the kilt and one of ours is the foustanela(very similar in looks). That is about the level of rationale and logic you can expect from the "intellectual elite" of FYROM, and that is putting it mildly.

reply to post by Macedonia


I dont have time to argue with you when you dont know what are talking about.

First of all, you write on this forum that Macedonians have problem. WRONG! Greeks have a problem with the name.

Once in the history you hate Macedonia and Macedonians, the second time you said that Macedonia is greek region. This is very funny!

Second thing, please understand this once for all times: There are no Ancient Macedonians or Ancient Greeks. Once you were a baby, now you are a man.
All the people in the world are mixed.

2000 years Macedonia is huge land, in the First Balcan war Macedonia is divided between Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia and small part goes to Albania.

You told me that Tito and Yougoslavia gave the name Macedonians to us and the country Macedonia.

You can lie those readers in this forum from foreign countries, but you can not lie to me.

You said that Macedonians are Greeks and Macedonia is Greek province?
Why dont you have a teritory political problem with Bulgaria and Serbia as you have with Turkey?

The answer is simple: Greece was not divided, MACEDONIA was divided!
If Macedonia(lets say Greek province) is divided between Bulgaria and Serbia, it is logicaly to have BIG TERITORIAL PROBLEM with those two countries.

Answer me this: Have you ever learned about your civil war, the ethnical cleaning, the way how you have taken a part from another country together with 2 other countries?

I can not understand you, you sent too many post that are not clear, that are funny and without logic.

I asked you very simple questions and please dont try to answer me with some stupid videos on youtube or with some stupid facts=no facts.

And the newest thing: I expect this or next year Greece to start giving passports to poor macedonians and to get in the final stage of modern assimilation as Bulgarians do to poor people here in my country.

Many people take these passports for living exsistence because Macedonia needs visa's to almost every country in the world. We can not go forward because Greece blocks our country on every way and for simple reason, if they recognize us as macedonians and our country as Macedonia, they will loose their stollen history, they will loose everything that have.

You said that we are nationalist country! ANd we are fighting to take our part back. No my friend, we do not need our teritory back, we do not have problem with that. The only problem are the living people who have right on their lands in Greece. They are too many. You are scared!

Also these 2-3 years i expect many new informations from the Strazburs court.
I will see who sold our country to you The SLAVO TURKISH GREEKS with 98% of pure Greeks and 2% muslims and no other living nationality in Greece ( the province of Ancient Macedonia).

The time will show everything, dont worry, every lie dies sooner or later.

1. There are no ancient Macedonians, there are no anciet Greeks, no ancient bulgarians, there are no ancient people at all in the world.

2. All people are mixed today!!! There are many many facts that show Macedonians and Greeks are TWO DIFERENT NATIONS even by DNA.
We Macedonians today, do not say that we are ancient macedonians or we are slavo-macedonians.
We are only Macedonians who live in the independent country Republic Of Macedonia.

3. Before the First Balcan war 1913, would you please slavo turkish greek friends confirm, what country was in the middle of Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia and Albania?

4. From which country you have grabbed 51% teritory after First Balcan war? What nation was living there?

5. If you said that Yougoslavia(exsist after second world war) imagine this country Macedonia, what is your answer to question number 4?

6. When will you answer about the etnical cleaning and assimilation, and how Greece reached 98% of Greeks and to become the purest nation in the world?

7. Dont send so many confisung posts and videos and dont lie the readers from foreign countries, just simply answer to these questions.

8. You can see clear elements for making propaganda by greek side.

You make the problems, you will make another war in the Balcan because Greek secret service paid large amounts of money to terorists to make problems in the islamic vilages in west part of Macedonia near the Kosovo border.

Why dont you let us to live our life, why you allow some radical politicians to wash your brain with speeches only to win the elections?

The only thing your politicians are talking about is the ancient history 2000 years ago, and you listen them every day and you forget to the economic problems that your politicians can not solve.

The time will show everyting...
I dont have nothing more to say.

Thanks
by Macedonia

Greece condemns attack on Greek tourist coaches in FYROM

Greece on Monday condemned an organized attack against three Greek tourist coaches in FYROM the previous night, warning that such actions hurt relations between the two peoples.

A group of some 20-30 people attacked three Greek tourist coaches in downtown Ohrid as they were waiting for Greek holidayjakers to return from a tour.

According to local media in FYROM, the assailants spray-painted various ant-Greek slogans on the coaches, while eye-witnesses said they also threw stones and sticks, causing damage to one of the coaches.

The incident was also condemned by Ohrid residents, who noted that such actions mar the lake-side town's tourism image.

The incident was being investigated by Ohrid police.

In Athens, foreign ministry spokesman George Koumoutsakos strongly condemned the "organized attack by unidentified perpetrators against Greek visitors and their property".

"Such actions unfortunately harm the communication betweel peoples, and are the visible result of the ethnicism and the bigotry against Greece that is purposely being cultivated recently in Skopje," Koumoutsakos said.

Greece, he added, "calls on the authorities of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to protect the Greek citizens who visit their country, and for the arrest and punishment of those guilty of yesterday's (Sunday's) unprovoked attack".

[img]www.megatv.com... 107&pubid=1569731

Local news website from FYROM
ohridnews.com...

Thats what happens when your brainwash your citizens with Big Ultranationalistic ideas and lies.

VMRO Reign in FYROM: Europe's Only Modern-Day Fascist Regime

The guy who wrote the above article("Vasko Gligorijevic") is in a psychiatric clinic in FYROM for "medical treatment" because of his ideas and his criticism of government corruption/propaganda.

2008 Human Rights Report
www.state.gov...

however, there were problems in some areas. Rule of law problems were seen in judicial and police procedures, including criminal detentions. Enactment of judicial reforms continued to be delayed, and political pressure and intimidation hindered the effectiveness of the judiciary. Harsh government criticism of media coverage viewed as "antipatriotic" negatively impacted freedom of the press

[edit on 2-3-2009 by geforce]

reply to post by geforce


First of all there are not atacked people in Ohrid.

Second, this incident is provoked by greek side because everyday greeks people fight macedonian drivers and crush their trucks.

There is violence in Greece, there is no violence in Macedonia why dont you say that and why dont you show the pictures of macedonian trucks?

[IMG]http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/7136/ce68f8ff2d3f5f42acb2ff4.th.jpg[/IM G]

[IMG]http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/413/grckonasilstvo1vo992029.th.jpg[/ IMG]

It is a shame to criticize Macedonia and not criticize Greece and you know very well what is going on in Greece.

There are 4 pictures, please follow the other links.
Thanks

To all readers of ATS forum in relation with this thread:

Please ask the greek friends to answer you how they became the purest nation in the world with 98% of greeks and 2% muslims.

If they tell you the truth, than you will know the answer of this thread Macedonia and the Greek propaganda.

(this is simple question and there is no need to answer with confusing videos and big posts and no need to lie the readers )

Waiting for answer!

Thank you

reply to post by geforce


You are talking about our goverment and their work?

Your goverment and police are killing children on the streets!!!

I've just read all 3 pages and this has been a very interesting thread.

It seems to me the main points of debate are:

1. Was Macedonia ever its own country
2. Does current day Macedonia have anything to do with the ancient.

I recently sparked an interest in Alexander the Great and have read numerous books about him and his life. After reading about his obsessions with Greek heroes, history, and tradition, it seems pretty obvious to me that he considered himself Greek.

a. Why would he be so intrigued with Greek culture if Macedonia was its own country?

b. Why would refer to himself and his men as Greeks numerous times throughout his conquests?

c. Why would he wish to keep Greece united, and get angry at the Persians for burning down the Acropolis.

I mean, i'm looking at it from a pretty straight forward point a view, but with what I've read, combined with other posts here in this thread, I don't see why anyone would think Macedonia wasn't part of Greece. Especially being from the Dorian tribe and speaking Greek. To argue otherwise seems to make absolutely zero sense to me.

As far as modern day "Macedonia," I'm sure they may be scattered individuals that are somewhat related to the ancient Macedonians, but the overwhelming majority of the people that now live there have nothing to do with the ancients. I don't think it takes rocket science to figure that out either.

To me it seems that the modern macedonians, or whatever theyre called, are a bunch of people with no clear history or culture and figure hey, Alexander used to be from part of the land we live on, let's just pretend we're his descendents and everyone will think we're cool too. However, I think these people have "pretended" so much, that they start to honestly believe it.

Originally posted by Macedonia
reply to post by geforce

 

You are talking about our goverment and their work?

Your goverment and police are killing children on the streets!!!

That was ONE unfortunate incident couple of mounths ago, a cup killed a teenager, he is in jail now...so cause of that ONE incident the Greek goverment is a "child killer"?? Grow up mate, seriously.

U want to read something staged by your goverment??

FYR Macedonia 'staged fake terror plot to woo US'

(Six Pakistanis and one Indian were killed just to make the US happy)

/cxp6ym
(and NO, telegraph.co.uk is NOT a Greek website )

Now that is corruption and criminal activities on a goverment level.





[edit on 3-3-2009 by geforce]

Originally posted by Macedonia
Waiting for answer!

Thank you

Sure, here u go mate

FYROM’s national MYTH and Eugene Borza
i173.photobucket.com...
i173.photobucket.com...
i173.photobucket.com...
i173.photobucket.com...
i173.photobucket.com...
i173.photobucket.com...

SKOPJE CONTRIBUTES TO ITS OWN INSTABILITY
andromeda.rutgers.edu...

My advice to you, accept your slavic roots and move on.

There are no 100% pure nations. But still your country is a slavic one(culture, language, national heroes"most of them are Bulgarian"). Nothing to do with the ancient Greek tribe of Dorians(Macedonians, Spartans, Molossians etc)



[edit on 3-3-2009 by geforce]

Originally posted by Macedonia
reply to post by geforce

 

It is a shame to criticize Macedonia and not criticize Greece and you know very well what is going on in Greece.

I'm not criticizing Macedonia which is a part of Greece "Macedonia (Greece) "

...i'm criticizing FYROM(Former Yogoslavic Republic Of Macedonia) prior 91 a part of Yugoslavia.

www.mfa.gr...

Foreign Ministry announcement regarding Greeks travelling to the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia

Athens, 3 March 2009


Foreign Ministry spokesman Mr. G. Koumoutsakos has issued the following announcement:

The Foreign Ministry informs Greek citizens who wish to travel to the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia – whether for a stay or in transit, for professional or personal reasons – that they may experience problems. Reasons for this include the following:



A. The negative climate that has been created with regard to our country during the past year has provoked the abuse of persons – usually drivers – and attacks on and damage to cars with Greek license plates.



B. Local legislation and procedural regulations, including those regarding:



· customs,

· taxation,

· transit hauling,

· leaving the country with over €2,000 in foreign currency, unless the currency was declared on entry into the country, and

· traffic regulations,

are very strictly enforced by the authorities in FYROM with regard to Greek citizens, in blatant abuse of authority and with disproportionate consequences.

It should also be borne in mind that FYROM legislation changes constantly and without any previous notification of the public or interested professional groups.


The competent Greek authorities have observed cases of the above, particularly in recent months.

Greek citizens are encouraged to familiarize themselves in a timely manner regarding the regulations in effect in FYROM, to comply with them carefully and, mainly, to exercise caution and prudence regarding their safety and that of their property during their stay in, or journey through, FYROM.

The Greek diplomatic and consular missions in the country are at the disposal of Greek citizens to provide clarifications or assistance in the case of an unpleasant incident.

And some intelligent comments of the FYROMian diaspora(Maknews)
img11.imageshack.us...
img11.imageshack.us...
s5.tinypic.com...

And Vaskos article one more time 4 those who don't know much about the situation.

VMRO Reign in FYROM: Europe's Only Modern-Day Fascist Regime





[edit on 3-3-2009 by geforce]

I have never said that we are ancient macedonians! Not even greeks are ancient greeks

Whole the people in the world are mixed this is a fact!

Macedonia as a country exist more than 2000 years!!!
Macedonia was a kingdom, and there was no Greece, there were small cities countries, this we can read from the original translations from valid scientific teams that translate the greek ancient writers!!!

Why Macedonia united the greek cities? Have you ever heard about " DIVIDE AND RULE" ? Philip united those cities and all the treasure gave to the people. This is written in the history. The most easiest way to rule!

About the language of ancient macedonians and the letters... All facts show that macedonians wrote with greek letters but with diferent language. (i will explane you more in relation with the "cooper book")

You can get logical answer if you see how many members of ATS from diferent countries write on english with letters abcdefg........

We all wait the results of the Stone of Roseta, the middle text shows similar gramatical logic with todays language in Macedonia near city Bitola, ancient Pella!!! But it is dificult foreign scienties to catch that fact because they dont know macedonian.

All history facts and even DNA tests from relevant world institutions show that MAcedonians and Greeks are 2 diferent nations!!! Ancient greeks came to the Balcan from Africa.

What is the political problem today??? We argue between us because of some radical politicians in Macedonia and Greece. We have to cooperate together and do business together, but on the "political field" as in any other country most easiest way to run away from real problems is simply wash the brain to the poor people with nationalism.

In 1913 Macedonia was divided between Greece (took51% of our teritory), Bulgaria took a part also and Serbia.

I dont know how much time i have to wait for an answer how Greece have 98% of greeks and it is the purest nation in the world?

I wrote here that they achive this with ethnical cleaning, with changing the names of cities, mountains, rivers even the names of people with force!!!
Greek friends told me that was LEGAL!!!

Greece denies the right of existence of other nationalities in Greece, read the last EU commision report!!!

This propaganda started almost 100 years ago by Greece. They have stollen our history i dont know how to explane anymore to get clear with this thread.


We do not like to have this stupid political problem, we want to go forward and to be friends. But Greeks blocked us because they are affraid that can loose a lot of land. Many people have documents for the land and the land is tooken with FORCE!!!
We as a country, we dont want back the land REMEBER THIS!!! Macedonians who lived there want their land back because Greese took 51% od macedonian teritory.

I am sorry but greeks are realy nazi people this is the truth.
The pictures of trucks i show, there are many many incidents like those happen in Greece during last 2 years.

It happened once in Macedonia and all the forums on the internet are filled with lies like macedonians fight greeks etc..
Why greeks didnt write about the REAL attacks of macedonian people in Greece? This is clasical PROPAGANDA

The most sad and worst thing of all is that today we are living in a modern world and there is still assimilation.

Macedonians took more than 200 000 pasports, thats why you call us bulgarians. But do you know why Bulgarians dont give passports anymore?? They made a mistake because the passports are with DOUBLE NATIONALITY!!!
If a student want to go to study in Bulgaria, he must claim himself as a BULGARIAN!!! This is a shame!!!

So please stop arguing for nothing. On the end we are born on Earth and it is funny still to have ancient problems and to fight for them.

Let the politicians kill themselvs, we have to live together.

Originally posted by f4rwest


Dear friend, i have a headache reading this every night

These are writers, orators even GREEK PROUD AND GLORY during the history. More than half are greeks and they told Macedonians and Greeks are 2 diferent nations. These facts are confirmed with DNA. I dont have nothing more to say

1) Diodorus
12) Plutarch
2) Justin
13) Livy
3) Arrian
14) Polybius
4) Curtius Rufus
15) Thracymachus
5) Thucydides
16) Herodotus
6) Isocrates
17) Demosthenes
7) Ephoros
18) Josephus
8) Ptolemy
19) Strabo
9) Pausanias
20) Dionysius Periegetes
10) Medius of Larisa
21) Pseudo-Scylax
11) Pseudo-Herodotus
22) Dionysius son of Kalliphon

For more info you can visit www. historyofmacedonia.org macedonian sponsored web page and you can only see the numbers of the pages of the books of these ancient people and no lies.

reply to post by BLV12


BLV12 is expresing my opinion quite thoroughly.
However i am too distressed to even take part in such a thread myself.
This threads should not be allowed in ATS at all. Not because freedom of expression should be supressed but because ATS should not be a means of such propaganda at all. The thread should be discontinued alltogether.
-Should members start using ATS as a means of making personal profit?
If that is the case i am in the wrong place.
First FYROM (shouldn't even be called that but anyway) wants to have a Greek name occupying an area that used to be Greek altogether. Next they will be asking for the rest of the area that has remained Greek. If things were fair it would be the other way around, but Greece is not a country to cause issues and problems.
Stop this! It is a known international issue and it should be properly taken care of. Not with propaganda...
ATS is not another place to fight over things. It is not a place of hate.
I am here as a citizen of the world speaking with citizens of the world.
Nothing to do with globalization and the NWO. When issues like this keep crawling around ATS i feel offended and i loose this feeling of truth,freedom and common wealth.

Very much insulted.
George the Greek

reply to post by geforce


What are 7 people doing with guns in Macedonia?

Please do not post propaganda for my country because they kill people like it is nothing.

The police stopped these people and they opened fire against the police and end of story they are dead now.

If you remember 2001-2002 there was war in Macedonia. These 7 people are paid terorists trained by retired american generals who work for MPRI www.mpri.com

This is a picture of NATO buses and make evacuation to those generals from Arachinovo who made a war in Macedonia. Clasical business with trade of weapon.
Mr Solana said that Macedonia will be bombarded from NATO if macedonian army dont stop with opening fire over the terorists and dont let NATO evacuate their people from there.

I hope in some thread i will be able to talk more for this.




[edit on 3-3-2009 by Macedonia]