Macedonia and the Greece propaganda

Hi members of the above top secret. I was just reading the topic Russian Physicists create a Stunning Electromagnetic device and I saw the comment Oceanborn made about Macedonia.
Well I will put it this way. I will give you facts about Macedonia and you give me facts that can support your theory that we are self proclaimed contry.

OK I will start with the history:
watch this documentary
Dialectica
if it does not work here video.google.com...

source from BBC





Wikipedia

ancient macedonians

This is from the Bible
Paul was summoned by the vision of the "man of
Macedonia" to preach the gospel there (Acts 16:9). Frequent
allusion is made to this event (18:5; 19:21; Rom. 15:26; 2 Cor.
1:16; 11:9; Phil. 4:15). The history of Paul's first journey
through Macedonia is given in detail in Acts 16:10-17:15. At the
close of this journey he returned from Corinth to Syria. He
again passed through this country (20:1-6), although the details
of the route are not given. After many years he probably visited
it for a third time (Phil. 2:24; 1 Tim. 1:3). The first convert
made by Paul in Europe was (Acts 16:13-15) Lydia (q.v.), a
"seller of purple," residing in Philippi, the chief city of the
eastern division of Macedonia.

















watch form 1:05


[edit on 12-11-2008 by defiler]

[edit on 12-11-2008 by defiler]

HI, noticed your post on Macedonia and propaganda.
Funny you should mention propaganda, and then go on to post exactly that, propaganda, and propaganda which has its origins in Communist Yugoslavia.
Don't even get me started on the site you use as evidence to back up your argument to re-write history.


Let me ask you a question, and you can go and research this your self if you do not believe the answer I will post on your behalf.

If the people in the FYROM(Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia), are the descendants of Alexander the Great, and the Ancient Macedonian's, then can you explain why the Ancient Macedonians spoke, wrote, in Greek?

And now this is the most solid fact that can not be denied.
If they are the descendants of the Ancient Macedonians, and the Greek Macedonians are not, then why is it, the Slavic inhabitants of FYROM(those claiming they are the descendants of Alexander the Great), only arrive to the Balkan peninsula during the 5th and 6th centuries AD? That is several HUNDRED years after Alexanders reign of the known world.

The answer is obvious. There is no relation between Slavic people and Ancient Macedonians, or any other of the Ancient Greek tribes.

Are you aware that the Ancient Macedonians belong to the Dorian tribe? There were over 200 Hellenic(Greek) tribes, one of those was the Dorians. The Spartans are also of the Dorian tribe.
Is your next claim going to be that the Spartans were not Greek?

Finally, why is that in 1945, Communist dictator of Yugoslavia, marshall Tito, renamed Vardaska Banovina(the southern part of Yugoslavia now known as FYROM) to Macedonia?

Also, considering that less then 10% of the territory of FYROM was part of the Ancient Macedonia, whereas the rest was part of Illyria and Dardania(sp?), why should you not only name your country after a Greek kingdom, but also try and usurp the history that goes hand in hand with that name?

Reputable and credible scholars the world over will all tell you that there is NO doubt Alexander and the ancient Macedonians were Greek's.
Alexander the Great him self, proclaimed that he is Greek by descent.

One of your former Prime Ministers, Gligorov(sp?) over a decade ago when you first gained independence from Yugoslavia, came out and said that you are Slav Macedonians, that you have no relation to Alexander or his Macedonia.
Do you care to tell ATS what the response was to that statement by fanatics in FYROM? His life was threatened in more ways then one, and he now keeps quiet.


And one last thing, how come no source, be it Greek, Ottoman, Bulgarian, French, English, whatever, has ever mentioned throughout history, a distinct, separate ethnic group called Macedonians?
It is only in the last 10-15 years this stuff has come up, ever sine you gained independence from Yugoslavia. And the only people saying such things, are people like George Sorros(a well known protagonist and sponsor of irredentist causes), and your selves with sites like the one you use above.


The problem for Greece is not that you want to call your country Macedonia.
The problem for Greece is what you claim and have claimed since your independence.
When your country comes out and prints on its money iconic buildings of its neighbour, uses a Greek symbol on its flag, what reaction do you expect?
When your president in this day and age lays a wreath at a statue which has a map of "greater macedonia" printed on paper stuck to it, what do you expect?
When your people protest and put a nazi swastika in place of the cross on the Greek flag, what do you expect?
When your people protest and put the faces of Greek politicians in place of the faces of Nazi's on giant posters, what do you expect?

Do you even know the sacrifices the Greek people made fighting the Nazis, and their Italian, Bulgarian and Albanian allies?

And now that I remember, how come there was a Greek, Serbian, Bulgarian, etc revolution and war of independence against the Ottomans?
Where was your's if you existed back then?
There was none, because back then before Tito came along, you were proud Bulgarians. No offence, but the truth is out there and copying and pasting from your propaganda sites will not work. This is not FYROM where your claims and lies will go unanswered, this is the Internet.

Look, end of the day, call your selves what you want, but stop trying to re-write history and claim what is not yours.
Greece is the biggest investor in FYROM, maybe its time your country showed some good will in return ehh?

Originally posted by defiler
Well I will put it this way. I will give you facts about Macedonia and you give me facts that can support your theory that we are self proclaimed contry.

Two things...first, I agree that Macedonia is a land and a people in and of itself. Second, I believe that this is a thread that will rapidly deteriorate into one of those nasty Balkan cat fights that start up in ATS every now and again. I suggest that the Mods keep an eye on it and make sure everybody minds their manners.

Edit to say, just saw the above post...'nuff said?



[edit on 14-11-2008 by JohnnyCanuck]

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
HI, noticed your post on Macedonia and propaganda.


Do you even know the sacrifices the Greek people made fighting the Nazis, and their Italian, Bulgarian and Albanian allies?

Shush!!!

There were no such things as albanian allies. So stop distorting history and the facts. Live albanians alone and don't involve them with this. Was only one battalion with few soldiers and 3./4 of them deserted as soon as they crossed the Greek border. You sound greek to me, ask your relatives, great parent if they are alive. They'll tell you a different story. A story of how hungry crowds of greek people crossed the border with Albania after the war with Italy and were greeted with love, respect and altruism from they neighbors. Even though it was and still is a pool of blood between two countries of innocent albanians people massacred in Epirus region from the turn of 20 century. Stick with the argument (which by the way is wrong but pointless for me to deal with that) and leave people that your country owns alot alone.

[edit on 14-11-2008 by Telos]

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Two things...first, I agree that Macedonia is a land and a people in and of itself. Second, I believe that this is a thread that will rapidly deteriorate into one of those nasty Balkan cat fights that start up in ATS every now and again.

I agree Johnny. We've seen it before.

Personally I'm done with this thread.

First of all i want to say this

second :

Are you aware that the Ancient Macedonians belong to the Dorian tribe? There were over 200 Hellenic(Greek) tribes, one of those was the Dorians. The Spartans are also of the Dorian tribe.

I have answer for that :

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology, H. 12 de Octubre, Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain. [email protected]

HLA alleles have been determined in individuals from the Republic of Macedonia by DNA typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR, -DQ allele frequencies and extended haplotypes have been for the first time determined and the results compared to those of other Mediterraneans, particularly with their neighbouring Greeks.
Genetic distances, neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analysis have been performed. The following conclusions have been reached: 1) Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. Both Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles, such as *0305, *0307, *0411, *0413, *0416, *0417, *0420, *1110, *1112, *1304 and *1310. Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and Ethiopian/sub-Saharan groups than to any other Mediterranean group and finally Greeks cluster with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour joining dendrograms and correspondence analysis. The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt.

It is very sad for your country and everyone knows that , you desperately try to hide the facts and by doing that you show your true face to the world. If you are so sure that what I say is wrong then let me see your facts my friend.
Let me see your proof that Macedonia never existed.

And by saying that I want to rewrite the history you say that the DNA analysis done in Spain are wrong, the Bible is wrong, BBC are wrong and not to forget the 120 countries that recognize our name.
Not to mention the genocides on other ethnicities as well.

I can give you an example on the modern use of English by many countries. This usage proves nothing at all about the ethnicity or culture gor the users.
To explore thoroughly this issue of the proposed Greekness of the Macedonians, we need to consider evidence from a number of quaters. If we were greek you would expect that a) there might be clear evidence that the macedonian language will be a dialect of the greek not a seperate language form the Indo-Europian language group.
b) Writers of the time would recodnise us macedonians as greeks rather than foreigners and would have spoken about Macedonia as thought is was a part of Hellenism,
and C) Historians today speak of the ancient macedonians as though they were Greek in ancient times. As we see none of these ideas is unequivocally supported.
Attic Greek, which came from much farther south around the Athens area was being used in other parts of the world as a trade language.
Many scholars have concluded that the ancient macedonian language was not a greek dialect. These scholars are : Muller and Mayer(19 centry),
Thumb-Kieckers, Vasmer, Kacarov, Beshevljev, Budimir, Pisani, Russu, Baric, Poghirc, Chantraine, Katicic all twentieth centry. What are these scholars you are talking about.


[edit on 14-11-2008 by defiler]

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How to quote


[edit on 15-11-2008 by GAOTU789]

I just had to join in order to properly reply to this guy.

Oh please, you are quoting once again propaganda.

That "dna study" you posted above, was laughed at the by the International Scientific community. It is a racist and derogatory "study".

I mean, christ, you look at a Greek person, they are obviously White/Caucasian. Yet FYROM want's everyone to believe Greeks are Africans.

Well sorry, you don't need a scientific study to see the sheer lunacy involved in this claim of theirs.

History is what it is, an you can not decide thousands of years later, that you want a piece of another countries legacy, and re-write history.


In regards to the comment about Albanians in WW2. There were many Albanians who sided with the Nazis and Italians in WW2 when they invaded Greece. But, I should have also said, there were many Albanians who also sided with Greece and fought side by side with Greeks against the aggressors.

However lets get back to the topic.

You want varying sources? Here, I'll post some sources that aren't even Greek, that prove what I'm saying. There was no such thing as a Macedonian ethnicity or country until 1945.
Here, a source from 1918.



Notice the text underlined in red. Why is it there is no mention of Macedonians? Because a Macedonian is a Greek, in the same way an Athenian is a Greek, or a New Yorker is an American, or a Londoner is a Brit/Englishman. Get the picture? It's rather simple.

Here, another source from 1905, which proves my claim that up until 1945, these people in FYROM claiming to now be Macedonian, were in fact, Bulgarian.




Again, how come there is no mention of any "ethnic" Macedonian populations?? Only Turks, Serbs, Bulgarians, and Greeks in Macedonia.
Because there was no such thing as an "ethnic" Macedonian. It is a communist creation with the goal of territorial aspirations in the region, and the aim of limiting Serbian influence in that part of Yugoslavia.

So please, reconsider your objective here, because I can continue to post sources which prove you are posting nothing but lies and propaganda. Don't even make me give you an ancient history lesson because you will be thoroughly embarrassed.

[edit on 14-11-2008 by BLV12]

edit sorry posted some of the stuff twice, three times even.

[edit on 14-11-2008 by BLV12]

This is from wikipedia.

en.wikipedia.org...

Robert William Seton-Watson (August 20, 1879–July 25, 1951), commonly referred to as R.W. Seton-Watson,
he also used the pseudonym Scotus Viator, was a British historian who also played an active role in
encouraging the breakup of the Austro-Hungarian Empire during and after World War I.
[1] In 1917-1918, Seton-Watson served on the Intelligence Bureau of the War Cabinet in
the Enemy Propaganda Department where he was responsible for British propaganda to the
Austrian and Hungarian peoples. [2]. He was the father of two eminent historians,
Hugh who specialised in nineteenth century Russian history, and Christopher, who worked on nineteenth century Italy.

This was said by your historians. So please tell me that they to were liars.

www.historyofmacedonia.org...

Diodorus Siculus
Ancient Greek Historian

The ancient Greek historian Diodorus wrote much of the history of Macedonia from the times of Philip II and Alexander the Great up to the last Macedonian king Perseus. In his writings, Diodorus is clear that the ancient Macedonians were a distinct nation, not related to any of the Balkan peoples (Greeks, Thracians, and Illyrians). The below 40 quotes from his books XVII, XVIII, XIX, XX, XXII, XXVIII, XXIX, XXXI, and XXXII are indeed an overwhelming proof of that:

[1] For even Greeks – Thespians, Plataeans and Orchomenians, and some other hostile to the Thebans who had joined the king (of the Macedonians) in the campaign. 17.13.5.

[2] For many days the king lay helpless under his treatment, and the Greeks who had been settled in Bactria and Sogdiana, who had long borne unhappily their sojourn among peoples of another race and now received word that the king has died of his wounds, revolted against the Macedonians. They formed a band of 3000 men and underwent great hardship on their homeward route. Later they were massacred by the Macedonians after Alexander’s death. 17.99.5-6.

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[edit on 15-11-2008 by GAOTU789]

www.historyofmacedonia.org...


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[edit on 15-11-2008 by GAOTU789]

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[edit on 15-11-2008 by GAOTU789]

www.historyofmacedonia.org...

Justin
Roman Historian


"It came to pass, that during the absence of exertion on the part of the Greeks, the name of the Macedonians, previously mean and obscure, rose into notice; and Philip, who bad been kept three years as a hostage at Thebes, and had been imbued with the virtues of Epaminondas and Pelopidas, imposed power of Macedonia, like a yoke of bondage, upon the necks of Greece and Asia" [6.9].

"Philip assigned the number of troops to be furnished by each state and only the King of Macedonia will be the commander of their forces. Weather Macedonia was attacked or was in a war with any other power, the Greek troops assigned by Philip had to support the Macedonian army and serve under him as their general. It's obvious that Philip had Persia in mind and knew that this is the point that obligated the Greeks to serve his dream of conquering that empire. The Macedonian army, which will have the exclusive status, was to be supported by the Greek army and by the armies of the adjacent conquered nations" [9.5.5-8].

www.historyofmacedonia.org...

Arrian
Ancient Greek Historian
The Campaigns of Alexander



[1] "Destiny had decreed that Macedon should wrest the sovereignty of Asia from Persia, as Persia once had wrested it from the Medes, and the Medes, in turn, from the Assyrians." [p. 111]

[2] "Our enemies are Medes and Persians, men who for centuries have lived soft and luxurious lives; we of Macedon for generations past have been trained in the hard school of danger and war. Above all, we are free men, and they are slaves." [p.112]

[3] "When received the report that Alexander was moving forward to the attack, he sent some 30,000 mounted troops and 20,000 light infantry across the river Pinarus, to give himself a chance of getting the main body of his army into position without molestation. His dispositions were as follows:

in the van of his heavy infantry were his 30,000 Greek mercenaries, facing the Macedonian infantry, with some 60,000 Persian heavy infantry- known as Kardakes." [p.114]

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[edit on 15-11-2008 by GAOTU789]

There is no need to post all of the quotes here. Here are the names of your ancient historians that say the name
Macedonia in the history reports
Curtius Rufus, Thracymachus, Thucydides, Herodotus, Isocrates, ,Demosthenes, Ephoros, Josephus, Ptolemy,
Strabo, Pausanias , Dionysius, Periegetes,Medius of Larisa, Pseudo-Scylax ,Pseudo-Herodotus
,Dionysius son of Kalliphon

If you do not believe me you can check these names in your archives.
By the way what happened to the bible quotes where the macedonian name is mentioned are they propaganda to.

For some reason I find this thread extremely interesting, perhaps it's because this is the stuff that history teachers did not tell me when I was in school.

On another note, I do not keep current with US military interests in Macedonia, however a friend of mine told me a couple weeks ago that some of his unit (Army) was heading to Macedonia, and some to Senegal, sometime next year. I found that odd, as those are two countries I have never heard anyone deploying to.

Originally posted by therainmaker
For some reason I find this thread extremely interesting, perhaps it's because this is the stuff that history teachers did not tell me when I was in school.

On another note, I do not keep current with US military interests in Macedonia, however a friend of mine told me a couple weeks ago that some of his unit (Army) was heading to Macedonia, and some to Senegal, sometime next year. I found that odd, as those are two countries I have never heard anyone deploying to.

Hmm that sounds interesting did he mention why?

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS

If the people in the FYROM(Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia), are the descendants of Alexander the Great, and the Ancient Macedonian's, then can you explain why the Ancient Macedonians spoke, wrote, in Greek?

Deffiler please answer this question if the Macedonians are a 'ditinct' peoples.

Originally posted by serbsta

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS

If the people in the FYROM(Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia), are the descendants of Alexander the Great, and the Ancient Macedonian's, then can you explain why the Ancient Macedonians spoke, wrote, in Greek?

Deffiler please answer this question if the Macedonians are a 'ditinct' peoples.

I have answer for that question see above in the posts.
And I will ask again why you are not answering about the Bible records? BLV12




[edit on 15-11-2008 by defiler]

I too can take texts from ancient times and misquote them, edit them, and fiddle with them, to say just about anything, I could probably make you people in FYROM out to be reptilians from another planet.

You continue to post propaganda and lies.
Yet you are unable to answer a couple basic questions.

If you are the descendants of the Ancient Macedonians(A Greek Dorian tribe), then why is it you, Slavic people, only arrived in the region from the 5th to 6th centuries AD???

Can you answer this ? Or will you continue to post propaganda from that site?


The fact you can NOT answer it, says to anyone reading that you have no answer for the facts and reality.

I'm sorry, but you are not the descendants of the Ancient Macedonians, whom were of Dorian stock.

I will post more scans later showing just how ridiculous the claims of FYROM are.

So I gave you proof and you ignore it and do not answer. Have you checked the archives about the ancient scholars I mentioned after all they are your people you should have records of that.
Stop saying you are dorians , you share propaganda bla bla bla and start answering. Show me evidence that the quotes from the ancient historians are "misquoted"

And I have not started to share propaganda see what date is my topic about this and see how old is this post.


www.abovetopsecret.com...

Indeed but it's a skopjen online newspaper and it's called "macedonian". Other than that,i felt like checking out an article and i saw this: In regards to Greece, the Macedonian FM does not see any solution on the name dispute, rather predicts not much would happen in the next four years due to Greece's. "The sovereignty of each country is stipulated in the constitution. It would be rather frivolous for the Republic of Macedonia, under pressure and blackmail, to allow changing of its Constitution and other acts related to the states' integrity and sovereignty", Milososki said. macedoniaonline.eu... "blackmail"...?! Now you see why Nikolas is laughing.

His post is not on the subject of the toppic. And it is not edited, and contains ethnic discrimination.

Please, stick to the topic. I'm not interested in a thread on Russia and what was said there, I'm interested in this thread you started. Otherwise I would have replied to that other thread. Understood? I hope so.

Ethnic discimination you say eh?
And what is this thread, then?
You are basically saying I am not a descendant of the Ancient Macedonians despite my family being northern Greece aka ancient Macedonia.
You are therefore discriminating against me, and hundreds of thousands of others.

There can not be any ethnic discrimination against your people, because you are not the descendants of ANY ancient tribe or people of the Balkans. You, your people, the Slavic people, arrived that far south in the Balkans, during the 5th and 6th centuries AD. This is a fact.

But let's inform the rest of the ATS readers on why you ignore this fact completely.

You deny you have Slavic origins, and in fact, consider it an insult to be called Slavic.

Your own propaganda that you call a "scientific study", even goes as far as to say that you, people of FYROM, are a distinct and unique, ethnic group.

Well I've posted sources that indicate you did NOT EXIST, and those sources weren't even Greek. And someone else has also posted sources which continue to disprove your propaganda.

You can either face the facts, that there was no such thing as a Macedonian nation nor ethnicity let alone a language, until the 1940's, which was created in relation to Communist Yugoslavias aspirations for expanding their borders into northern Greece aka Macedonia, or you can continue to play the fool and rely on propaganda to prove a falacy created 60 years ago for political purposes.

You can not even answer why it is nobody, not the French, English, Ottomans, Americans, never mentioned any distinct, seperate ethnic Macedonian group or language. You have no answer for why the only ethnic groups EVER mentioned in ANY credible source, are the Greeks, Bulgarians and Turks in varying numbers throughout history, and also in addition to those three, the Jews, Vlachs, Roma, Serbs, and Albanians.

It is only now, in the last 60 years, when due to political reasons and territorial aspirations of a Communist regime in Yugoslavia, this falacy has been created.

All the former Yugoslav countries are moving forward, leaving communism behind. Even Albania, a former isolated Communist country, is making great progress.
Even the Serbs and Croats are trading between each other these days.
But we have this one country, struggling to stay on its feet, but refusing to acknowledge history and reality, who continues to anger its neighbours with its absurd and unfounded claims which go against historical facts.

You have claimed Cleopatra, Bulgarian Tzars, ancient Greek kings & empires, in fact, I've seen some of your propaganda sites claiming that the SCOTTISH PEOPLE are your descendants, and that twelve American presidents, including current outgoing president Bush, are also your descendants. You even claim Skandenberg, widely regarded as Albanian, as yours.

Where does it end with you guys?
Will you claim the Aboriginal tribes of Australia are your descendants too?
Maybe the UFO that crashed at Roswell was from your empire on Mars?