Macedonia and the Greece propaganda

Two maps from 1877. Notice the ethnic groups listed. Notice that there is no "Macedonians" listed? Maybe if this was a map from 1945 onwards printed in Yugoslavia, they would be listed. But neither of these maps is printed in Greece, so they are a neutral source. All the known and recorded ethnic groups throughout the thousands of years of recorded history of this region, are listed. Except one. The newly invented Macedonian ethnic group, which was created for political purposes in 1945 by a COMMUNIST dictator named Tito, in Yugoslavia.






ah crud, the forum cut half the images out. But still the main point I'm making is evident in the parts that came up. If you want the full map click on it opens a new window.

[edit on 27-11-2008 by BLV12]

Is the region listed in the map as "Macédoine" - south of present day FYROM?

Is that region on the map current day Greek Macedonia? (Thessaloniki, etc.)

Yes, the original Macedonia, as in the ancient one, lies almost completely within Greece's borders. This is what our forefathers fought for against the Serbs and Bulgarians after we kicked out the Ottomans from the Balkans. It's worthy to note, in fact, vital, that there was never a "Macedonian peoples" independence war against the Ottomans. Serbs, Bulgarians, Greeks...we all had one. What about these so called "ethnic Macedonskis"?? Didn't happen, because they didn't exist as "Makedonskis", but as Bulgarians.

Not even 10%, certainly no more, of the original ancient Macedonia, lies within FYROM's borders. And the parts that do, primarily around Monastiri- Bitola in their Bulgarian dialect, were heavily populated by Greeks - so that kind of pretty much also proves and sums up, Macedonia is Greek.

FYROM has no actual right to claim Macedonia as it's own. Because 90% of the country at least, is not even historically part of Macedonia - Sure, maybe when the kingdom was expanded at one time or another, but the kingdom was expanded all the way to India, does India have a right to call it self Macedonia? No. What about Iran or Turkey? Of course not, it wouldn't make sense, it would be absurd.

But because people are not aware of the facts and history of the region, they don't understand how absurd it is for a people, who came in the 5th & 6th centuries AD to the region, to claim they are the descendants of Ancient Greeks...

Btw, there is also a small part of historical Macedonia in Bulgaria. But Bulgaria does not claim they are Alexanders descendants.

Thanks for clarifying, kali mera kai afharisto poli (have a good day and thank you vm)!

Giorgos

Originally posted by defiler
This post was made by the employees from iGenea.
What will you say now?
[edit on 18-11-2008 by defiler]

Well, i'm not BLV12 but here you go

GREEKS

It's been said that modern Greeks are racially different from their ancient predecessors, having over the centuries mixed with slaves and foreigners, including Negroids, and lost an allegedly Nordic character. The scientific data, however, shows tremendous continuity and near purity among Greeks, as well as a virtual absence of Nordic racial elements since the beginning of Greek history.

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Anthropology

"It is inaccurate to say that the modern Greeks are different physically from the ancient Greeks; such a statement is based on an ignorance of the Greek ethnic character.... The Greeks, in short, are a blend of [sub]racial types, of which two are most important: the Atlanto-Mediterranean and the Alpine. Dinaricism here is present, but not all pervading; true Alpines are commoner than complete Dinarics. The Nordic element is weak, as it probably has been since the days of Homer. The racial type to which Socrates belonged [Alpine] is today the most important, while the Atlanto-Mediterranean, prominent in Greece since the Bronze Age, is still a major factor. It is my personal reaction to the living Greeks that their continuity with their ancestors of the ancient world is remarkable, rather than the opposite."

source Coon, Carleton S. The Races of Europe. MacMillan, 1939

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Genetics

In a sample of 125 Greeks from Thessaloniki and Sarakatsani, 2 Asian-specific mtDNA sequences (M and D) were detected (1.6%). No sub-Saharan African genes were observed in this population. Therefore, non-Caucasoid maternal ancestry in Greece is very low, as elsewhere in Europe.

source Richards et al. (2000) Tracing European Founder Lineages in the Near Eastern mtDNA Pool. Am J Hum Genet; 67:1251-1276

* * *

In a sample of 366 Greeks from thirteen locations in continental Greece, Crete, Lesvos and Chios, a single African haplogroup A Y-chromosome was found (0.3%). This marks the only instance to date of sub-Saharan DNA being discovered in Greece. In another sample of 42 Greeks, one sequence of the Siberian Tat-C haplogroup turned up. Note that other studies with larger sample populations have failed to detect this paternal marker in the Greek gene pool (e.g. Malaspina et al. 2000; Weale et al. 2001), and that its frequencies are actually much higher in Scandinavian and Slavic populations.

sources Di Giacomo et al. (2003) Clinal Patterns of Human Y chromosomal Diversity in Continental Italy and Greece Are Dominated by Drift and Founder Effects. Mol Phyl Evol (to appear)
Helgason et al. (2000) Ancestry of Icelandic Y Chromosomes. Am J Hum Genet; 67:697-717

* * *

In this autosomal DNA plot of genetic distances derived from 120 allele frequencies, Greeks fall entirely within the cluster containing Caucasoid populations (upper right corner), wedged between Basques and Northern Europeans, and far away from Africans and Asians:



* * *
A recent paper has detected clades of haplogroups J and E3b that were likely not part of pre-historic migrations into Europe, but rather spread by later historical movements. Greeks possess none of the lineages denoting North African ancestry within the last 5000 years, and have only 2% (3/148) of the marker J-M267, which may reflect more recent Middle Eastern admixture.

source Semino et al....

more info here racialreality.110mb.com...

[edit on 30-11-2008 by geforce]

That domain is for free hosting very reliable source

Originally posted by defiler
That domain is for free hosting very reliable source

Check the sources not the domain my Fyromian friend

btw, can you read ancient "Macedonian"(Greek) letters/Texts? I can.

www.cc.ece.ntua.gr...
Macedonia - Behind The Names
www.youtube.com...

video.yahoo.com...

a BBC documentary about Μέγας Aλέξανδρος(Alexander the Great)

part 1 www.youtube.com...
part 2 www.youtube.com...
part 3 www.youtube.com...
part 4 www.youtube.com...

Denko Maleski, Foreign Minister of FYROM from 1991 to 1993.
www.youtube.com...

1. "It was a tragedy that the moderate governments of that time did not manage to reach a compromise." 2. "Alexander the Great's place in the history of my country is probably the result of political planning rather than historical tradition, which belonged only to the mindset of fringe groups in my country." 3. "Those fringe groups were insignificant in the first years of our independence, but the Balkan nations have been used to legitimize themselves through history. They need 2-3,000 of history to be legitimate." 4. "Therefore, since you [Greeks] forced us to invent a history, we did invent it!" 5. "Our country was forced by your refusal to compromise, into an irrational race for history, in order to establish whichever rightful, or not, rights in it." 6. "The pressure we received from the Greek political world, resulted in us moderates being defeated, and be replaced by hardliner nationalist groups." 7. "Since you [Greeks] did not allow us to exist with dignity as a nation next to you, and you didn't give us the time to sort out our problems, our historical differences, you obliged us to dig up in history as deep as you do." 8. "It is you [Greeks] that forced us in the arms of the extremist nationalists who claim today that we are direct descendants of Alexander the Great." 9. "Your reaction was a self-inflicting prophecy, like as if you wished things had happened the way they did!"

Kiro Gligorov former President of FYROM from 91-99 admits that they are slavs and they don't have any connection with Alexander the Great.

www.youtube.com...

[edit on 30-11-2008 by geforce]

"Kiro Gligorov former President of FYROM from 91-99 admits that they are slavs and they don't have any connection with Alexander the Great."


Michigan State University libraries USA(neutral source)
staff.lib.msu.edu...

The South Slav (Yugo-Slav) groups that became the Slovenes, Croatians, Serbians and Bulgarians entered the Balkans from the north between 500 and 700 AD

There are also 1.4 million Macedonians in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, which achieved independence after the collapse of Yugoslavia in 1989. These South Slavs reached Macedonia in the 600s AD. Citing historical, cultural or linguistic grounds, Serbia, Greece and Bulgaria often have advanced claims to Macedonia in terms of both territory and ethnic affiliation with the population. Macedonian history illustrates the complicated relationship between ethnic identity, language and national independence.

BBC(History)
Alexander was born in the northern Greek kingdom of Macedonia in July 356 BC.
Alexander the Great coins from 300-200 BC
www.vroma.org...
all with Greek letters...FYROM(former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia) speaks a Slavic language.

is the official language of the Republic of Macedonia and is a part of the Eastern group of South Slavic languages. Macedonian is closely related to and shares a high degree of mutual intelligibility with the Bulgarian and Serbian languages.

The modern Macedonian alphabet was developed by linguists in the period after the Second World War, who based their alphabet on the phonetic alphabet of Vuk Stefanović Karadžić, though a similar writing system was used by Krste Misirkov in the late 19th century. The Macedonian language had previously been written using the Early Cyrillic alphabet, or later using the Cyrillic alphabet with local adaptations from either the Serbian or Bulgarian alphabets

en.wikipedia.org... tion

You can find thousands of similar websites with identical info.


[edit on 30-11-2008 by geforce]

Hi,
Hope that no one minds me adding to the ' Macedonia and the Greece propaganda'

Frequently Asked Questions:

Q: Why does Greece care what the people of FYROM call themselves?

A: Because Greeks too, especiall those who live in Greece's Macedonia province (whose area overlaps with that of ancient Macedonia, its capital is Thessaloniki and its airport is Macedonia International Airport), have been considering themselves Macedonians and in fact descendants of ancient Macedonians and Alexander the Great.

We want to make the distinction clear between Greek Macedonians and the Slavs who have been calling themselves Macedonian since the late 19th, early 20th century because they migrated to a province that the Ottomans called Macedonia.

commons.wikimedia.org...:HistMac.gif

Ill add more later and time is not on my side at the moment!

IX
helen

Originally posted by defiler
If you are not BLV than why do you say that. Unless you are in doubt that
I will suspect you. It would be very interesting if all new users say that.

What?? Please, do me a favor and read some Balkan history books, and Ancient Greek history books...educate yourself, it won't hurt you.

Excellent posts guys.

The historical evidence and the facts, once all brought forward, do not paint a rosey picture for FYROM or its claims.

It really is a simple matter of understanding that Tito & pals are the root of this problem. It all started with them, and their wish to expand their territory into neighbouring Greece.

Back then however, we had the support of the USA, who opposed any such actions, and more importantly did not(and still does not) recognise any Macedonian language or ethnicity - It recognises the country, but it is making no acknowledgement of a specific Macedonian race or language, because none exist.
Back in the cold war though, they backed us over the Slavs because the Slavs were Communists, and the US was eager to prevent Soviet expansion into the Eastern Mediterannean.

Today however, they back the Slavs. Why? Because they want to build a massive oil pipeline through our northern neighbours.

Back then the US interests were about containing the Soviets, today the US interests are about oil & gas.

But at the end of the day, no matter what American interests are, history was written thousands of years ago, and it can not be changed - Macedonia is Greek, Alexander the Great was Greek.

Defiller, i cant believe youre still going on with this. You are directly 'violating' the purpose of this site, DENY IGNORANCE, you my friend are one of the most ignorant people i have seen. BLV has given you enough evidence.

Im not Macedonian or Greek, i was born in the war in 1991, i have self-taught myself on the issue of Makedonia and FYROM, therefore i have not been influenced by any propaganda, i have viewed countless books on this issue, read countless research papers.

The current "Macedonians" are in no way related to the Hellenic people that lived there before, Tito created your pseudo-state which still exists today only due to the pure stubbornness and ignorance of its people who are like a group of little sheep in a cage.

I dont mean to offend you, nor is this in any way a personal attack. As someone above has said, it is not your fault, but the history you claim is your Slavic Macedonian is not that of the ancient Greeks, enough said.

Before you post, please, have a small think about what you have been taught about your country's 'history' and by whom. i.e influences.

Adios.

It is said to be hated by your neighbors. So all of the the evidence that I
posted are fake or propaganda? From the NY times and the most proven
dna institute. To deny that is ignorance.
When I can I will take pictures from the bible where it mentions the name Macedonia.

[edit on 1-12-2008 by defiler]

Lets get something strait you say that Macedonia never existed before 1991. And the macednian people were greek, serbian and bulgarian. ?
Or that the macedonian people existed but Macedonia the contry was found
in 1991.

No, what we are saying is that YOU, SLAVIC PEOPLE, are not the descendants of Ancient Greeks.

The Macedonians in Ancient times, were of HELLENIC(GREEK) stock. They were/are as Greek as any of the other 230 Hellenic tribes. Specifically, they come from the Dorian tribe, which coincidentally, so do the Spartans!!

Are you going to tell me now, that the Spartans were not Greek?


YOU, SLAVIC PEOPLE, did not start migrating to the region till the 5th, 6th & 7th centuries AD. I say it again, NOTICE THE AD.

Hellenic history in the region extends to BEFORE CHRIST(BC). In fact, THOUSANDS of years Before Christ.

YOU, SLAVIC PEOPLE, came to the region, NEARLY 1,000 YEARS AFTER ALEXANDER THE GREAT HAD CONQUERED THE KNOWN WORLD AND DIED.


What is so hard to understand about this?

This is history, this is fact, this is reality.

The motto of this site, DENY IGNORANCE. I suggest you think about what that means before you post again.



As for your so called "scientific dna study", it is nothing but propaganda and lies.

There is also a major flaw in that study, and in what it tries to claim.
It's purpose is to prove that Greeks are not European, and thus not the descendants of the Ancient Macedonians(thats funny considering Makedonia is an ancient Greek word lol).

But considering that Alexander united the Greek city states, and spread HELLENIC culture and values to the known world at the time, I'd say that if we were Africans, regardless of what Alexander was, that there would now be African in you, for obvious reasons.

So are you going to now admit you are African too?

Or is it just us Greeks who are Africans?

That is, if your propaganda had an ounce of truth to it.
So I guess your defacto claiming Alexander was not only Slavic, but now an African from Ethiopia.

The contradictions and insanity in the claims coming out of FYROM & its diaspora are just astounding.

That study is nothing but racist propaganda.
It is laughed at by any serious member of the scientific community who is not being funded by specific and certain NGOs, namely those funded & controlled by parasites like George Sorros.

It is even considered as nothing but propaganda by the United States, and is part of the bill passed by Congress calling on FYROM to put an end to its hostile propaganda toward Greece and urging FYROM to display good neighbourly relations/behaviour.



[edit on 1-12-2008 by BLV12]

I see never mind I find this ridiculous.

As for your so called "scientific dna study", it is nothing but propaganda and lies. There is also a major flaw in that study, and in what it tries to claim.

Can you tell me where is the flaw then.
And I will post your proof to the iGenea team and see what will they say.

[edit on 1-12-2008 by defiler]

Greek autosomal DNA

sources:

1 L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza, “Genes, peoples, and languages,” Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA, Vol. 94, pp. 7719-7724, July 1997.
2 Qasim Ayub et al., “Reconstruction of Human Evolutionary Tree Using Polymorphic Autosomal Microsatellites,” American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 122:259–268 (2003)
3 Marc Bauchet et al., Measuring European Population Stratification using Microarray Genotype Data, American Journal of Human Genetics (in press), (2007)
4 Price AL, Butler J, Patterson N, Capelli C, Pascali VL, et al. (2008) Discerning the Ancestry of European Americans in Genetic Association Studies. PLoS Genet 4(1): e236. doi:10.1371/journal.pgen.0030236
5 Tian C, Plenge RM, Ransom M, Lee A, Villoslada P, et al. (2008) Analysis and Application of European Genetic Substructure Using 300 K SNP Information. PLoS Genet 4(1): e4. doi:10.1371/journal.pgen.0040004
6 Lao O. et al. (2008) Correlation between Genetic and Geographic Structure in Europe, Current Biology doi:10.1016/j.cub.2008.07.049
7 Novembre J. et al. (2008) Genes mirror geography within Europe, Nature doi:10.1038/nature07331

A striking demonstration of the persistence of the Greek genetic signature through time can be found in [1]. The figure on the right is the 4th principal component of variation in Europe and shows a strong cline centered in Greece. Not only is the Greek genetic legacy clearly detectible today, but it is detectible among not only the Greeks, but all their neighboring populations of partial Greek ancestry:

The genetic affinities of human populations can be determined by examining large numbers of polymorphisms. For example, Ayub et al. [2] used 182 tri- and tetra-autosomal microsatellites, which allowed them to create the following tree based on DAS genetic distance between the sampled populations. It is clear that Greeks belong in the Caucasoid cluster of populations (encompassing groups from “North European” to “Burusho” in the figure), and are clearly distinguished from the Asian/Oceanian/American cluster (“Cambodian” to “Mayan Indian”), and even more from the African groups (“San” to “Zaire Pygmy').

With the caveat of the small population sample numbers, these results are fairly consistent with those of the previous study. Greeks (GR) are once again between their northern neighbors (especially Albanians (AL), Slavomacedonians (MK), Bulgarians (BG), Romanians (RO), and Kosovars (KS)) and Italians (IT). Greek Cypriots (CY) and Turks (TR) also frame the Greek sample on a more southern and eastern direction respectively. The Greeks' closest neighbors appear to be their immediate northern neighbors, as well as some of the Italians who otherwise appear to be quite variable, some of them being more similar to their Central European neighbors; Northern Balkan Slavic populations (Slovenians (SI), Croats (HR), Bosnians (BA) appear more distant in the direction of Central and Eastern European Slavs.

Fore more pics and info follow the link...7 different studies, 7 different sources.

Cheers.

[edit on 1-12-2008 by geforce]

Im talking about iGenea. I cant find topic on their site about the origins of the
greek dna.

It is a matter by what side they are financed.

[edit on 1-12-2008 by defiler]