Ukraine hit 300 miles into Russia

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Terpene
a reply to: Kurokage

voted for some form of independent devolution agreed.

That happend it just wasn't respected by the Ukrainian government.

So what would you do if, let's say, Alberta wanted to sperate from canada, and join the USA. They had a successful vote, but canada wouldn't respect that and stories of US citizens being harassed in that region would start spreading...
What governement would sit by idly? Answer none

If you take western propaganda at facevalue to justify their "policing" actions, you should give all the other liars the same benefit of doubt... Unless of course you think your side never lies and the other always lie, then I'm sorry your opinion is absolutely worthless as it's obviously biased by your respective propaganda campaign...

Exactly right.

Shrugs

Putin's 'Human Rights Council' Accidentally Posts Real Crimean Election Results

www.forbes.com... -for-annexation/

As you may recall, the official Crimean election results, as reported widely in the Western press, showed a 97 percent vote in favor of annexation with a turnout of 83 percent. No international observers were allowed. The pro-Russia election pressure would have raised the already weak vote in favor of annexation, of course.

Yesterday, however, according to a major Ukrainian news site, TSN.ua, the website of the President of Russia’s Council on Civil Society and Human Rights (shortened to President’s Human Rights Council) posted a report that was quickly taken down as if it were toxic radioactive waste. According to this purported report about the March referendum to annex Crimea, the turnout of Crimean voters was only 30 percent. And of these, only half voted for the referendum–meaning only 15 percent of Crimean citizens voted for annexation.

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Kurokage
a reply to: UKTruth

No country is on the level of the US State controlled propaganda.
UK is not far behind.

So Russia and China with its only state run and controlled media is free to post, broadcast, and print about anything??? Thanks for that lesson!!

You really need to get your eyes checked.

Can't remember saying that.

Your problem is you think propaganda is a tool used by the big bad East.
Again, until you start accepting that there is no hero vs villain situation here, you'll always end up just parroting propaganda for one corrupt actor over another.

This is what you said....

No country is on the level of the US State controlled propaganda.
UK is not far behind.

So you implied the west was far worse thean the state controlled and run media of places like Russia, China and Iran.....

Who said anything about a hero and villian sitution, but if that was the case, Putin is way ahead of the competition here. You want to talk about parroting? You're the one giving Putin a free ride all the way to Europe and don't appear to think he should be held accountable for invading Ukraine (which includes Crimea) and whole heartedly swollowing Russia propaganda.

And I see no apology about calling me a shill? I see someone who who isn't brave enough you say when they're wrong!!! Very sad....(shakes head with pity for UKTruth)

a reply to: Terpene

Again another member who thinks it fine and dandy to allow Russia just to roll over Eastern Europe without consequence. Like I've previously said in the thread, others in Europe thought like that in the 30s and look what happened?? It wasn't untill it was on Britains doorstep did anyone say enough, no further.

Why are we so stupid?

If the shoe fit's maybe you should wear it proudly???

Something more on topic and not about comments from Putin apologists in the thread...

www.dagens.com...

Kremlin Propagandists React to Destruction of Ammo Stockpile in Russia.

A significant explosion at an ammunition depot in Toropeț, Russia, attributed to a Ukrainian drone strike, has sparked outrage among prominent military bloggers and Kremlin propagandists.

Calls For Deeper Investigation
Reports indicate that between 19,000 and 30,000 tons of munitions were stored at the facility, with NASA and ESA satellites capturing ongoing fires in the aftermath of the attack, according to Digi24.

Military blogger Rybar criticized official statements claiming that the blaze was caused by drone debris, arguing instead that the severity of the incident warranted a deeper investigation. He highlighted that the depot, inaugurated in 2018, was meant to meet global standards for munitions storage.

This raises questions about the competence of Russian military infrastructure and the oversight of former Deputy Minister of Defense Dmitri Bulgakov, who is currently under investigation for corruption.

The explosion reportedly released the equivalent of 500 freight cars of munitions, raising alarms about Russia's ammunition reserves. Sources suggest that the depot may have housed various missile types, including Iskander ballistic missiles and S-300 air defense systems.

a reply to: Kurokage

to allow Russia just to roll over Eastern Europe without consequence

I love the hyperbole dressed in true propaganda fashion.

originally posted by: Terpene
a reply to: Kurokage

to allow Russia just to roll over Eastern Europe without consequence

I love the hyperbole dressed in true propaganda fashion.

That Putin is nothing but propaganda.

originally posted by: Terpene
a reply to: Kurokage

to allow Russia just to roll over Eastern Europe without consequence

I love the hyperbole dressed in true propaganda fashion.

Again with taking the thread off topic, all you seem to do on ATS is promote Mad Vlad as some kind of innocent man who 'HAD' to invade Ukraine for all the poor little children and puppies!!

And you should certainly know all about propaganda as you seem to whole heardly swollow Putins load with a gleeful smile.

How about commenting on the pathetic storage of between 19,000 and 30,000 tons of munitions at this ammo base that seems to have been wiped out by Ukraine or is that to difficult for you??

a reply to: Kurokage

Aaaand here we go....

lost the ball, went for the player...

I don't give a # about putin or zelenski, apparently you do...

originally posted by: Terpene
a reply to: Kurokage

Aaaand here we go....

lost the ball, went for the player...

I don't give a # about putin or zelenski, apparently you do...

All you do is attack the poster with nothing to add to the thread (the same in most threads) and yet here you are claiming it's me. I see you don't want to actually talk about the topic of the thread at all.
You should get a job as a comedian, you'd have them all laughing at you.
Another poster who doesn't seem to understand the T&Cs, I don't give a 'crap' about putin or zelenski either, but I do care about freedom for democratic countries and the right to self determination.
It's a shame you don't.

originally posted by: Kurokage

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Kurokage
a reply to: UKTruth

No country is on the level of the US State controlled propaganda.
UK is not far behind.

So Russia and China with its only state run and controlled media is free to post, broadcast, and print about anything??? Thanks for that lesson!!

You really need to get your eyes checked.

Can't remember saying that.

Your problem is you think propaganda is a tool used by the big bad East.
Again, until you start accepting that there is no hero vs villain situation here, you'll always end up just parroting propaganda for one corrupt actor over another.

This is what you said....

No country is on the level of the US State controlled propaganda.
UK is not far behind.

So you implied the west was far worse thean the state controlled and run media of places like Russia, China and Iran.....

Who said anything about a hero and villian sitution, but if that was the case, Putin is way ahead of the competition here. You want to talk about parroting? You're the one giving Putin a free ride all the way to Europe and don't appear to think he should be held accountable for invading Ukraine (which includes Crimea) and whole heartedly swollowing Russia propaganda.

And I see no apology about calling me a shill? I see someone who who isn't brave enough you say when they're wrong!!! Very sad....(shakes head with pity for UKTruth)

I know what i said and it's not what you claimed.
Thats the problem when you lose perspective and fall into the trap of the good vs evil fantasy world.
Your mind ends up making things up to fit what you want to believe.

Both the east and western governments are laced with propaganda and lies that they push through all media, whether 'state' media or not. The US is the worst in the world and has been since Obama actively removed restrictions on the US govt pushing propaganda.

originally posted by: Terpene
a reply to: Kurokage

Aaaand here we go....

lost the ball, went for the player...

I don't give a # about putin or zelenski, apparently you do...

The problem with the debate on Russia / Ukraine is obvious.
Loud voices will continue to push that literally everything is the fault of Russia and the noble West is free of all blame.
Couldn't be further from the truth, but its something they simply don;t want to hear.
years of Western propaganda has given them their bogeyman.

originally posted by: UKTruth

It's a fact that our Govt lied about WMDs in Iraq and are responsible for the deaths of over 1 million people.
You know that as well as I do.

Yes and no, Saddam had them (Chemicals) but moved them to Seria. I was Physically at the base there and bunkers/areas were off-limits to being chemically hots for years.

I disagree with going to war in either Iraq or Afghanistan cases. I spent a couple of years of my life between the two countries.

Also, a Million deaths is a extremally high number used mostly as propaganda, the end count was closer to 600k. The real count as to what Americans did was well under 50,000 as the war didn't last very long and we moved into a roll of occupation until a new Government could be installed. 90% of deaths was the Sunni fighting the Shia for a very long time. I would get reports for example of 20 heads found floating down the river as one side or the other killed all the male leaders in a village. If a Sunni went into a Shia area they were killed and vice a versa. This went on and on and we sat back and did nothing.

Yet here you are believing literally everything they say once again and dismissing what Putin and Russia says as Russian propaganda.

I'm not doing either...All I'm saying is Putin would be killed along with the vast majority of the oligarchies if they did. They know it would be suicide, so my point is they are not going to do that until suicide is the last option.

Come-on, what situation would you need to be in where if you killed someone you are 100% going to be killed too. It would a last-ditch event where you would see that no matter what you are going to die.

The fact remains that the West actively supported the overthrow of the Ukranian Govt and it directly led to war, almost immediately as Russia took Crimea.

You like to use the word "fact" all the times like that is the end of the conversation with nothing more to it. The US did support the removal of a Russian Puppet that did some horrendous things to the public like a dictator would and the people rioted removing him. How much of all that was the US, who knows, but he kind of dug his own grave.

I don't hear you bitching about Russia installing a puppet. That there was a lot more influence than what America did to removed him. He just turned out to be an evil d!ck.

At the end of the day, Russia invaded, and they were never threatened by anyone. They came up with dozens of reasons that each one kind of drifted off into the wind, but the main point was that Putin just wanted Ukraine back under Russia and he thought it would be a walk in the park like Georga was.

Those are facts my friend.

Personally, I like Putin feeling the pain as the big bully over there is taking a beating in ten different directions with military, socially and internationally. That is how we won the cold war, they just devastated themselves trying to keep up, and Putin is playing the same game again.

a reply to: UKTruth

Thats the problem when you lose perspective and fall into the trap of the good vs evil fantasy world.

Yes you do seem to see this conflict that way. Putin as the good guy vs the Evil West!!
You then try to push that your special some how and that your own agenda is neutral whilst clearly supporting Putins' push into Crimea and Ukraine, with the constant whinning about the West, it really does show your neutrality when you then make no cmments about Putins illegal actions on here???

Your mind ends up making things up to fit what you want to believe.

That has a name and It's called cognative bias and you do seem to be showing a lot of it.

originally posted by: Kurokage
a reply to: UKTruth

Thats the problem when you lose perspective and fall into the trap of the good vs evil fantasy world.

Yes you do seem to see this conflict that way. Putin as the good guy vs the Evil West!!
You then try to push that your special some how and that your own agenda is neutral whilst clearly supporting Putins' push into Crimea and Ukraine, with the constant whinning about the West, it really does show your neutrality when you then make no cmments about Putins illegal actions on here???

Your mind ends up making things up to fit what you want to believe.

That has a name and It's called cognative bias and you do seem to be showing a lot of it.

You are projecting.
I see the evil of the West and Russia.
I see it because it's quite obvious.

Ukraine was Russia's puppet and now it's the US's puppet.
Neither care about the millions of people suffering - they are playing power games as people die.
Cheerleading for escalation and potential nuclear war is utter madness.

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Kurokage
a reply to: UKTruth

Thats the problem when you lose perspective and fall into the trap of the good vs evil fantasy world.

Yes you do seem to see this conflict that way. Putin as the good guy vs the Evil West!!
You then try to push that your special some how and that your own agenda is neutral whilst clearly supporting Putins' push into Crimea and Ukraine, with the constant whinning about the West, it really does show your neutrality when you then make no cmments about Putins illegal actions on here???

Your mind ends up making things up to fit what you want to believe.

That has a name and It's called cognative bias and you do seem to be showing a lot of it.

You are projecting.
I see the evil of the West and Russia.
I see it because it's quite obvious.

Russia is the one that invaded Ukraine because it was only going to take two weeks.

a reply to: UKTruth

I'm not projecting here.
How much about the drone strike have you added to the coversation, or has it all been a rant about Evil Western media??
You claim to be neutral, but you hide it very well under all your hatred of the west.....

As Lazy88 added, Russia was the one who invaded Ukraine and went against its own agreement when Ukraine handed over it's Nukes. Putin could have used diplomatic channels about all of this instead he chose to invade, what does that tell you??

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: UKTruth

It's a fact that our Govt lied about WMDs in Iraq and are responsible for the deaths of over 1 million people.
You know that as well as I do.

Yes and no, Saddam had them (Chemicals) but moved them to Seria. I was Physically at the base there and bunkers/areas were off-limits to being chemically hots for years.

I disagree with going to war in either Iraq or Afghanistan cases. I spent a couple of years of my life between the two countries.

Also, a Million deaths is a extremally high number used mostly as propaganda, the end count was closer to 600k. The real count as to what Americans did was well under 50,000 as the war didn't last very long and we moved into a roll of occupation until a new Government could be installed. 90% of deaths was the Sunni fighting the Shia for a very long time. I would get reports for example of 20 heads found floating down the river as one side or the other killed all the male leaders in a village. If a Sunni went into a Shia area they were killed and vice a versa. This went on and on and we sat back and did nothing.

Yet here you are believing literally everything they say once again and dismissing what Putin and Russia says as Russian propaganda.

I'm not doing either...All I'm saying is Putin would be killed along with the vast majority of the oligarchies if they did. They know it would be suicide, so my point is they are not going to do that until suicide is the last option.

Come-on, what situation would you need to be in where if you killed someone you are 100% going to be killed too. It would a last-ditch event where you would see that no matter what you are going to die.

The fact remains that the West actively supported the overthrow of the Ukranian Govt and it directly led to war, almost immediately as Russia took Crimea.

You like to use the word "fact" all the times like that is the end of the conversation with nothing more to it. The US did support the removal of a Russian Puppet that did some horrendous things to the public like a dictator would and the people rioted removing him. How much of all that was the US, who knows, but he kind of dug his own grave.

I don't hear you bitching about Russia installing a puppet. That there was a lot more influence than what America did to removed him. He just turned out to be an evil d!ck.

At the end of the day, Russia invaded, and they were never threatened by anyone. They came up with dozens of reasons that each one kind of drifted off into the wind, but the main point was that Putin just wanted Ukraine back under Russia and he thought it would be a walk in the park like Georga was.

Those are facts my friend.

Personally, I like Putin feeling the pain as the big bully over there is taking a beating in ten different directions with military, socially and internationally. That is how we won the cold war, they just devastated themselves trying to keep up, and Putin is playing the same game again.

I have been discussing why the war started and escalated.
It is down to the removal of the Ukrainian Govt in 2014. That is a fact.

Yes, the pro Russian/Russian puppet Govt that was in power was oppressing dissenters to their rule.
Yes, Putin most likely saw the 2014 coup as an opportunity to take Crimea, but it was still the trigger.
Same oppression happened to pro Russian civilians in Ukraine after the 2014 coup, by the way.
We exchanged one oppressive Govt for another - for global power games - and didn't give a # who would die because of it.
As it happens the current Ukrainian regime is the most oppressive of all - even banning opposition parties and jailing journalists if they step out of line.

Govt oppression happens in other countries too - like North Korea and China - I don't see the West going as far to topple their Govts. In fact in one case, we have actively engaged China to maximise our corporate profits whilst they provide cheap products made with slave labour. That's how righteous our leaders really are.

There are no good guys here - and that is my point.

I am sick of the regurgitation of Western propaganda trying to paint themselves as the white hats - when they are anything but.
That doesn't make Putin a white hat.
We're dealing with two utterly despicable players - and the people who are dying in their hundreds of thousands are simply pawns.

Cheerleading and jingoistic rhetoric - even to the extent of normalizing nuclear war - is utter madness, at least it seems like it to me.

originally posted by: Kurokage
a reply to: UKTruth

I'm not projecting here.
How much about the drone strike have you added to the coversation, or has it all been a rant about Evil Western media??
You claim to be neutral, but you hide it very well under all your hatred of the west.....

As Lazy88 added, Russia was the one who invaded Ukraine and went against its own agreement when Ukraine handed over it's Nukes. Putin could have used diplomatic channels about all of this instead he chose to invade, what does that tell you??

No, my position is quite clear.
I do not support either the actions of the West or Putin in this war.
I totally reject anyone who, from behind their keyboards in the safety of their own home, jumps onto one side and makes an effort to gin up the war and delight in the deaths of civilians or even soldiers, whether they are Ukrainians or Russians. That is why i reject your position. We're not the good guys in the UK or the US. Our leaders have proven to be absolute monsters.

a reply to: UKTruth

I have been discussing why the war started and escalated.
It is down to the removal of the Ukrainian Govt in 2014. That is a fact.

Again, your wrong here.
Yanukovych as far back as 2002 wrote a foreword to a book by two ex-KGB agents endorsing the KGB and its predecessors, stating that the NKVD and Cheka "firmly stood on guard over the interests of our people and the state". He also stated in the past that he wanted Russian to become the second state language in Ukraine and not just Ukrainian.
In 2012 President Yanukovych and the Party of Regions were accused of trying to create a "controlled democracy" in Ukraine and as a means to this were trying to "destroy" main opposition party BYuT, with many high-profile political opponents under criminal investigation.
Just as we see in Russia today, how many political opponents has Putin now killed?? The west might not have 'clean hands' but they're no were near as dirty as the Kremlins.

From Wiki just for ease.

Since 2012, Ukraine and the EU had been negotiating a free trade and association agreement. In 2013, the Verkhovna Rada (Ukrainian parliament) overwhelmingly approved finalizing the agreement with the EU,[182] and Yanukovych urged parliament to adopt laws so that Ukraine would meet the EU's criteria and be able to sign the agreement in November 2013.[183]

Russia, however, put pressure on Ukraine to reject the EU Association Agreement.[12] In August 2013, Russia began restricting Ukrainian imports, which Ukraine's opposition parties described as "a trade war" to pressure the country not to sign the agreement.[12] The agreement was to be finalized at a summit in the Lithuanian capital Vilnius. On 21 November, a week before the summit, Yanukovych suddenly announced he was pulling out of the agreement, and instead strengthening economic ties with Russia. Jovita Neliupšienė, foreign policy aide to Lithuania's president Dalia Grybauskaitė, said Yanukovych had called her to say he had changed his mind due to what she called Russian "economic pressure and blackmail". The Lithuanian president's office said Russia had threatened Ukraine with huge trade losses and job losses if it signed the EU agreement.[185] Russia also offered more favorable trade terms than those offered by the EU and IMF.[186]

Yanukovych was a staunch supporter of Russia at a time Ukraine wanted to move closer to Europe, not the USA or Russia. It was this that led to the protests were supporters were killed, with Yanukovych eventually being removed from office.

You're led by your hatred of the west and can't see the actual facts of the matter on how Ukraine was invaded. All parties would've been promoting themselves during this, but that has always been the case. Ukrainian people should've been free to decide for themselves (They did want to join the EU) and not Russian puppet masters.

even to the extent of normalizing nuclear war - is utter madness, at least it seems like it to me.

I agree with you but It appears those supporting Putin on here are the ones normalizing Nuclear warfare, but should we allow Mad Vlad to invade Eastern Europe because he threatens to nuke us if his cross he's constant shifting red lines?

That is why i reject your position. We're not the good guys in the UK or the US. Our leaders have proven to be absolute monsters.

You haven't posted a single piece of evidence to back up any single claim you've made since taking this thread off topic, and it appears you can only see in black and white, whilst the world operates in many shades.
Most sane people would put Putin a lot farther long into the darker area than most of Europe and it's leaders.

originally posted by: UKTruth


I have been discussing why the war started and escalated.
It is down to the removal of the Ukrainian Govt in 2014. That is a fact.

So, it took 6+ years to start the war? I would say it is a component, but all the components go back to Putin wanting Ukraine back under Rassa as a Russian territory. We didn't remove the Government, the people did it in violent riots, so the guy had to run back to Russia where he was born and lives today. He also opened the door to Russia's annexation of Crimea.

Yes, the pro Russian/Russian puppet Govt that was in power was oppressing dissenters to their rule.
Yes, Putin most likely saw the 2014 coup as an opportunity to take Crimea, but it was still the trigger.
Same oppression happened to pro Russian civilians in Ukraine after the 2014 coup, by the way.
We exchanged one oppressive Govt for another - for global power games - and didn't give a # who would die because of it.

At least we agree here

We didn't do it...Yanukovych did...We didn't tell Yanukovych to do all the evil crap he did, to give up Crimea, to put the boot on the neck of his citizens etc. I think you are giving the US and EU too much credit and none to Yanukovych and Russia for getting that bad guy into office in the first place.

As it happens the current Ukrainian regime is the most oppressive of all - even banning opposition parties and jailing journalists if they step out of line.

They are also at war for their lives, do you not account for that? If the war didn't happen, they would be 10 times better today than 2014, and most likely under the EU umbrella.

You throw some real BS as your point... IF RUSSIA DIDN'T ATTACK THEY WOULD BE SITTING VERY VERY GOOD.

There are no good guys here - and that is my point.

Never said there was, but there are different shades of bad guys, and Russia is on a very dark side of that shade.