Ukraine hit 300 miles into Russia

a reply to: UKTruth

"The Ukrainian people should have voted Yanukovych out, not resorted to violence and murder."

The violence and murder was carried out by Yanukovych.

Do you think it would be acceptable to the people of the UK for protestors against their Government to be shot and killed?

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: UKTruth

"The Ukrainian people should have voted Yanukovych out, not resorted to violence and murder."

The violence and murder was carried out by Yanukovych.

Do you think it would be acceptable to the people of the UK for protestors against their Government to be shot and killed?

Armed and violent protesters in the UK? - yes, shoot them. The streets have to be kept safe for the Citizenry.
Violent uprisings are not part of democracy.

There are many ways to remove a govt , most notably at the ballot box. That is Democracy.

There is literally no solid argument to justify what they did , or what has happened since.
Likewise, cheerleading for escalations now and playing the hero / villain game is not a viable route forward.

The route forward is a peace deal.
Escalations like missile strikes into Russia with NATO support is not something I could ever think was sensible.
There are no winners.

What seems sensible to me is
- Russia keeps Crimea and it is formally recognised
- Russia withdraw from the Donbas
- a UN peacekeeping force is deployed to the Donbas region
- Pro Russian citizens in the Donbas are given financial support to move if they so wish
- Pro Ukranian citizens are given the same
- further incursions by Russia into the Donbas means full deployment of NATO forces for defence, which will also include taking back Crimea
- Further escalations by Ukraine means sanctions and withdrawal of all support and severing of ties with the West.

a reply to: UKTruth

"I suspect their experience was better in 2013 than it is now."

Of course. Because a full scale invasion has been underway for getting on for three years with civilians being targeted and their infrastructure destroyed.

The mental gymnastics involved in blaming the West rather than Putin for his War deserve a Gold Medal🏅

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: UKTruth

"I suspect their experience was better in 2013 than it is now."

Of course. Because a full scale invasion has been underway for getting on for three years with civilians being targeted and their infrastructure destroyed.

The mental gymnastics involved in blaming the West rather than Putin for his War deserve a Gold Medal🏅

There is no side to blame exclusively for the war. Until you get rid of that mindset, or rather until the leaders in the West get rid of that mindset, there is no route forward and many more people will die.
The war was triggered by the West and Russia have since escalated and committed war crimes. So have Ukraine.

a reply to: UKTruth

Yanukovych fled with his I'll gotten gains ahead of a democratic impeachment vote.

I'll score you a 10 for a back flip with a triple twist.

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: UKTruth

Yanukovych fled with his I'll gotten gains ahead of a democratic impeachment vote.

I'll score you a 10 for a back flip with a triple twist.

You would flee too if a violent mob was about to kill you.
Again, there is simply no justification for the violent overthrow of the Govt...certainly not Yanukovych corruption.
If corruption was a valid reason then you'd be for the violent overthrow of most Govts on earth, including our own.
We vote out our Govts if we are not happy , we don't run them out of the country at fear of execution.

a reply to: UKTruth

Yes, but with a stolen $70 billion?

a reply to: UKTruth

Bit more to it than Yanukovych 's corruption.

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: UKTruth

Bit more to it than Yanukovych 's corruption.

No one is saying he's not a scumbag, but then so is Zelenksy.
That angle gets nowhere.

The bottom line is that Ukrainians should have voted him out.
They went a different path and it led to where we are now - note that does not mean it is the entire reason of where we are now, but it was the spark, undoubtedly.

When Poroshenko was leading and urging on the violent overthrow of the Govt, I wonder did he let the gullible idiots that followed him and violently took to the streets know the consequences?
The people literally had 1 year to go to the next election - they were scheduled for early 2015.

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: UKTruth

Yes, but with a stolen $70 billion?

I am sure you would if you could... but it is not a question that you could reasonably answer honestly.
As for $70bn? Hmmm.., there would have to be some verification of that, and not some propaganda piece.

a reply to: UKTruth

Interpol is a propaganda piece?

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: UKTruth

Interpol is a propaganda piece?

Link?
Not that it has any relation to the actual debate, but would be interesting.
Everything I have seen is that money laundering was a long standing corruption in Ukraine over many years - not a last minute money grab when fleeing the country.
By the way, the same corruption continued after too as we now know

a reply to: UKTruth

www.interpol.int...

"The Red Notices, for charges including embezzlement and misappropriation, were issued on Monday 12 January 2015 following a thorough review by INTERPOL’s Office of Legal Affairs to ensure that Ukraine’s request for the notices was in compliance with the Organization’s rules and regulations."

a reply to: UKTruth

They are now, however, because the West interfered.

They are at war because Russia invaded a non-threatening independent nation.....everything else is just smoke in mirrors, deflection and obfuscation.

originally posted by: UKTruth

There are millions of them who are pro Russia and millions pro West / EU.

More like 4 million pro-Russian and 40 million pro-EU. Most of the pro-Russian are in the Domask area and it makes sense since it is right there on the Russian border. The vast majority of Ukrainians HATE Russia. Don't forget Russia killed off 30% of the population there after WWII and sent millions to further die in concentration camps. We really have little clue to how many people the USSR killed internally. Then the rest were basically slaves to supply Russia with anything they needed. 1992 came along and they were free finally from Russian total totalitarian rule.

Then Putin came along and first tried to create a satellite country to Russia and after that failed, he took Crimea for fun. Few years later seeing how easy it was to take Crimea he decided to take the whole country and now is stuck in a quagmire. I bet if he saw this future he would never have invaded.

Not sure why Putin and Russia keep bringing up Nukes I've been looking at the wind patterns of Ukraine the Topol 800 kiloton
Is a city killer but it's all blowing in the direction of Moldova and Crimea - So no way he would use Nuke on Ukraine.

And when you look at it Ukraine is Huge If he hit Kiev, he would be redating a massive area going all the way down to the water. So, he's full of it

Let Ukraine fire back

originally posted by: UKTruth

Again, there is simply no justification for the violent overthrow of the Govt...certainly not Yanukovych corruption.
If corruption was a valid reason then you'd be for the violent overthrow of most Govts on earth, including our own.
We vote out our Govts if we are not happy , we don't run them out of the country at fear of execution.

It a reason in play, and has worked about 1000 times in our history...lol

Once the people there lost all faith in fair elections, or the Government to do nothing but bend the knee to Putin, what else is there?

a reply to: UKTruth

Again, there is simply no justification for the violent overthrow of the Govt...certainly not Yanukovych corruption.

I think there's every reason for 'the people' ousting a government that has reneged on its election manifesto.
Politicians should be held accountable to the electorate - yes, that includes our's.

Yanukovych was elected on a pro-EU ticket.
At the last minute he ditched all proposed agreements and took a pro-Russian stance - against the mandate he was elected on - because he accepted a very large bribe from Russia.

So yes, I think that warrants protests - it was not a violent uprising or 'coup'.

Yanukovych tried to brutally suppress those protests resulting in approximately 100 deaths.
He then fled the country to Russia where he is now enjoying the benefits of his corruption and betrayal whilst his country is in complete turmoil.

But yeah, its all the bastard West's fault.

If corruption was a valid reason then you'd be for the violent overthrow of most Govts on earth, including our own.

Yes, I agree. We should overthrow governments if they do not act upon the policies on which they were elected, especially if they have been bribed by a foreign government to do so.

We vote out our Govts if we are not happy , we don't run them out of the country at fear of execution.

I think we should.
Politicians should be accountable to the electorate. If they fail to carry out their policies, without due reason, then get rid of them.

a reply to: Ravenwatcher

I saw a video this morning. The claim that it was a jet powered drone. And it certainly did sound like a small jet of some sort. Ukraine is doing quite a bit with drones. I saw them using small cessna like 2 seaters and packing them with explosives to hit targets.

If I was Ukraine. I'd use drone gliders packed with bombs. Tow them up to to a height that would let them strike deep into russia. Make em cheap and unleash a bunch of them.