Ukraine hit 300 miles into Russia

originally posted by: Kurokage
a reply to: UKTruth

I have been discussing why the war started and escalated.
It is down to the removal of the Ukrainian Govt in 2014. That is a fact.

Again, your wrong here.
Yanukovych as far back as 2002 wrote a foreword to a book by two ex-KGB agents endorsing the KGB and its predecessors, stating that the NKVD and Cheka "firmly stood on guard over the interests of our people and the state". He also stated in the past that he wanted Russian to become the second state language in Ukraine and not just Ukrainian.
In 2012 President Yanukovych and the Party of Regions were accused of trying to create a "controlled democracy" in Ukraine and as a means to this were trying to "destroy" main opposition party BYuT, with many high-profile political opponents under criminal investigation.
Just as we see in Russia today, how many political opponents has Putin now killed?? The west might not have 'clean hands' but they're no were near as dirty as the Kremlins.

From Wiki just for ease.

Since 2012, Ukraine and the EU had been negotiating a free trade and association agreement. In 2013, the Verkhovna Rada (Ukrainian parliament) overwhelmingly approved finalizing the agreement with the EU,[182] and Yanukovych urged parliament to adopt laws so that Ukraine would meet the EU's criteria and be able to sign the agreement in November 2013.[183]

Russia, however, put pressure on Ukraine to reject the EU Association Agreement.[12] In August 2013, Russia began restricting Ukrainian imports, which Ukraine's opposition parties described as "a trade war" to pressure the country not to sign the agreement.[12] The agreement was to be finalized at a summit in the Lithuanian capital Vilnius. On 21 November, a week before the summit, Yanukovych suddenly announced he was pulling out of the agreement, and instead strengthening economic ties with Russia. Jovita Neliupšienė, foreign policy aide to Lithuania's president Dalia Grybauskaitė, said Yanukovych had called her to say he had changed his mind due to what she called Russian "economic pressure and blackmail". The Lithuanian president's office said Russia had threatened Ukraine with huge trade losses and job losses if it signed the EU agreement.[185] Russia also offered more favorable trade terms than those offered by the EU and IMF.[186]

Yanukovych was a staunch supporter of Russia at a time Ukraine wanted to move closer to Europe, not the USA or Russia. It was this that led to the protests were supporters were killed, with Yanukovych eventually being removed from office.

You're led by your hatred of the west and can't see the actual facts of the matter on how Ukraine was invaded. All parties would've been promoting themselves during this, but that has always been the case. Ukrainian people should've been free to decide for themselves (They did want to join the EU) and not Russian puppet masters.

even to the extent of normalizing nuclear war - is utter madness, at least it seems like it to me.

I agree with you but It appears those supporting Putin on here are the ones normalizing Nuclear warfare, but should we allow Mad Vlad to invade Eastern Europe because he threatens to nuke us if his cross he's constant shifting red lines?

That is why i reject your position. We're not the good guys in the UK or the US. Our leaders have proven to be absolute monsters.

You haven't posted a single piece of evidence to back up any single claim you've made since taking this thread off topic, and it appears you can only see in black and white, whilst the world operates in many shades.
Most sane people would put Putin a lot farther long into the darker area than most of Europe and it's leaders.

At this point I do not know what avenue you are trying to progress.
No one has said that the pro Russian govt in Ukraine prior to 2014 coup were beacons for virtue.

I do know that they were not at war with either Russia or the US in that time, however.
They are now, however, because the West interfered.
Given the history in the West of nation building and interference, I am not prepared to concede a point that they did so for any noble reason.

You continue to project in terms of seeing things in black and white.
That is exactly what you are doing.

a reply to: Xtrozero

I am not particularly interested in 'shades of evil'
Evil is evil.
I see very little difference between what the West have done - literally millions dead- and what Russia have done.
Neither gets above a 0/10 from me on a scale of good.

originally posted by: UKTruth

I am not particularly interested in 'shades of evil'
Evil is evil.
I see very little difference between what the West have done - literally millions dead- and what Russia have done.
Neither gets above a 0/10 from me on a scale of good.

Maybe true, but you spend 90% of your time slamming at just one side and putting most blame on one side.

You want shades... Ukraine gets rid of an evil guy and replaces him with one that aligns more with their desires even if there is a level of corruption with both compared to Russia invading causing a million deaths and total destruction in their path.

It's like you saying someone steals a bike and compare that to a bank robbery and say they are both thieves and so equals in your eyes. My advice to you is that you can disagree with what the US has done in the last 100 years, but it doesn't take away from the evils from everyone else.

I see Russia as the big bad guy in this event even if there were/are other players that played minor levels too. Once Russia crossed the line that ended it all as to who is the real Dr. Evil in all this.

a reply to: UKTruth

At this point I do not know what avenue you are trying to progress.
No one has said that the pro Russian govt in Ukraine prior to 2014 coup were beacons for virtue.

This is what you said in a previous post....

I have been discussing why the war started and escalated.
It is down to the removal of the Ukrainian Govt in 2014. That is a fact.

I'm just trying to point out the facts here instead of taking your off hand comments as truth. You seem to be blaming all this on what you believe to be some kind of Western coup in Ukraine in 2014. The facts just don't point to this.

I do know that they were not at war with either Russia or the US in that time, however.
They are now, however, because the West interfered.

No, they are at war because Russia invaded after losing it's puppet Yanukovych, a fact you can't seem to except??

You continue to project in terms of seeing things in black and white.
That is exactly what you are doing.

I'm not, you just seem to want to blame this on American and the west instead of seeing the hand Russia had in trying to manipulate Ukraine and it's people.

originally posted by: Kurokage
a reply to: UKTruth

At this point I do not know what avenue you are trying to progress.
No one has said that the pro Russian govt in Ukraine prior to 2014 coup were beacons for virtue.

This is what you said in a previous post....

I have been discussing why the war started and escalated.
It is down to the removal of the Ukrainian Govt in 2014. That is a fact.

I'm just trying to point out the facts here instead of taking your off hand comments as truth. You seem to be blaming all this on what you believe to be some kind of Western coup in Ukraine in 2014. The facts just don't point to this.

I do know that they were not at war with either Russia or the US in that time, however.
They are now, however, because the West interfered.

No, they are at war because Russia invaded after losing it's puppet Yanukovych, a fact you can't seem to except??

You continue to project in terms of seeing things in black and white.
That is exactly what you are doing.

I'm not, you just seem to want to blame this on American and the west instead of seeing the hand Russia had in trying to manipulate Ukraine and it's people.

I am separating facts from opinion

Prior to the 2014 coup, no war
After the 2014 coup, invasion of Crimea almost immediately and subsequent escalation.

These are facts.

One sided views on who is more evil than who ? I am not interested.
Both the puppet govt of Ukraine under Putin and the puppet Govt of the US now are no better than each other.

a reply to: UKTruth

I think you are forgetting about the Ukrainian people?

a reply to: UKTruth

One sided views on who is more evil than who ? I am not interested.
Both the puppet govt of Ukraine under Putin and the puppet Govt of the US now are no better than each other.

That just shows your bias here, you can't seem to understand that Putin invading a free democratic nation that wanted to be part of Europe is the work of an evil dictator akin to a movie bad guy. The invasion happened because he lost his puppet.
Sad really.

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: UKTruth

I think you are forgetting about the Ukrainian people?

That's exactly where my focus is - they are the victims of two sides in a power struggle.
There are millions of them who are pro Russia and millions pro West / EU.

Also, the Russian people - victims too.

originally posted by: Kurokage
a reply to: UKTruth

One sided views on who is more evil than who ? I am not interested.
Both the puppet govt of Ukraine under Putin and the puppet Govt of the US now are no better than each other.

That just shows your bias here, you can't seem to understand that Putin invading a free democratic nation that wanted to be part of Europe is the work of an evil dictator akin to a movie bad guy. The invasion happened because he lost his puppet.
Sad really.

Again - there is no democracy in a coup.
In a Democracy the people vote, not violently overthrow the leaders if they are not getting what they want on every issue.

a reply to: UKTruth

Probably not so many millions pro getting, droned, bombed, shot and shelled?

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: UKTruth

Probably not so many millions pro getting, droned, bombed, shot and shelled?

Ukraine will always have it's pro Russian population.
Well, maybe less now that Crimea is part of Russia and sections of the Donbas.

That's probably the wise solution - split the country and remove the competing elements.

a reply to: UKTruth

"not getting what they want on every issue."

Like, Sovereignty and freedom?

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: UKTruth

"not getting what they want on every issue."

Like, Sovereignty and freedom?

No, EU partnership.
That was the point being made.

They had more sovereignty and freedom before a minority decided to violently overthrow the govt than they do now.

a reply to: UKTruth

No, closer ties to Europe rather than being under Russia's heel, again.

a reply to: UKTruth

In a Democracy the people vote, not violently overthrow the leaders if they are not getting what they want on every issue.

You can't seem to want to except the events and history here.

They had democratically voted to join the EU and literally a few days before signing Yanukovych made the decision to withdraw from the agreement because of Russian pressure.
That's why the Ukrainian people then demonstrated. They had their choice changed for them undemocratically.

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: UKTruth

No, closer ties to Europe rather than being under Russia's heel, again.

Being under the West's heel or Russia heel. Frying pan/ fire.
A minority of the poeple chose violence and it's led here.
Along the way none of the actors involved come out with any credit.

Its more or less making my point that criticism of the US and the wests involvement and subsequent escalations is seen as an exonoration of Russia. The mindset of there having to be a good guy and bad guy is one I reject.

a reply to: UKTruth

The mindset of there having to be a good guy and bad guy is one I reject.

You seem to want to reject the facts.
Putin is the bad guy, he invaded a free and democratic nation that didn't want him. How can you not see that as Evil??

a reply to: UKTruth

Ukrainians had direct experience of being under Russia's heel.

Not a good experience.

"Escalations"?

The only relevant escalation was Putin's War.

That was quite a massive escalation.

originally posted by: Kurokage
a reply to: UKTruth

In a Democracy the people vote, not violently overthrow the leaders if they are not getting what they want on every issue.

You can't seem to want to except the events and history here.

They had democratically voted to join the EU and literally a few days before signing Yanukovych made the decision to withdraw from the agreement because of Russian pressure.
That's why the Ukrainian people then demonstrated. They had their choice changed for them undemocratically.

The parliament had voted to approve the trade agreement
The President vetoed it.
Do you think it would be acceptable for the people of the UK to violently overthrow the govt and kill police officers trying to defend 10 Downing Street if we decided to go back in to the EU? Or we had not left and ignored the referendum?
Is that your idea of Democracy?
How would you feel about those people if you knew that Putin had both supported and funded the violent overthrow?

The Ukrainian people should have voted Yanukovych out, not resorted to violence and murder.
The moment they did sparked everything that has happened since.

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: UKTruth

Ukrainians had direct experience of being under Russia's heel.

Not a good experience.

"Escalations"?

The only relevant escalation was Putin's War.

That was quite a massive escalation.

Arms supply was an escalation - and happened before the invasion of the Donbas.
I suspect their experience was better in 2013 than it is now.