The Brink has been reached.

a reply to: annonentity

Anybody that wants facts and evidence as opposed to the tripe you come away with without such "We" springs to mind.

Do you have any of that yet to back your nonsense claims the radiation from a large-scale nuclear exchange would be gone in a couple of weeks?

Nope.

Nada, none, zilch.

originally posted by: UKTruth
a reply to: SprocketUK

That’s not really evidence that Putin invaded for no reason.

The US and the European nations fomented and supported a coup to overthrow the Ukrainian leader in 2014 because he sided with Russia in a decision on whether or not to sign a partnership agreement with the EU.
That started this whole mess.

Wasnt meant as a Putin reason, just the proximate cause as with nukes Putin would never have dared.

a reply to: Imhere

I tell you what ile provide such when you prove the claim you always make aka Putin is simply hunting Nazis.

Also please show me where i have suggested "zero reasons whatsoever other than pure conquest"?

And please be specific.

Obviously, there are a multitude of complicated issues and complex nuances that led to the invasion of Ukraine.

None of which was a reason for Putin to invade or do the terrible things that he has perpetrated.

The invasion was driven by his geopolitical ambitions, historical claims, opposition to NATO expansion, domestic politics, and strategic interests.

a reply to: UKTruth

Not really something Russia has a say or holds sway over considering Ukraine was a sovereign nation recognised by Russia.

As to the Euromaidan movement, which led to Yanukovych's ousting.

To suggest that was completely orchestrated by Western nations is a rather contentious and simplified interpretation.

a reply to: andy06shake

Nobody said it was completely orchestrated by Western nations.
We do know however that the support was active, including funding a coup and directly installing the new govt
The actions of the West led to war.
The West is also responsible for killing a subsequent peace deal.
So, it’s clear who the real aggressors and war mongers are.

a reply to: andy06shake

Nonsense

There was clear and justifiable reason to invade Ukraine. A coup installed a pro west govt and put Ukraine on a path to close ties with the EU, whilst at the same time allowing NATO missiles to be stationed in Ukraine.

If Russia worked with Mexican cartels to install a new pro Russian govt in Mexico and move in Russian missile systems, i don’t think we’d be critical of the US response.

a reply to: andy06shake

I realize your position on this site is to push the current propaganda but one has to ask what point are you trying to make as your circular logic goes nowhere ? ad homini attacks diminish your argument to the point of repetitive boredom. Which also make you look like a bot or algorithm response. Anyone with a creative sense of humanity can see that unless some olive branches are offered you and many others will lose the ability to function. Whether or not radiated tracks of land remain dangerous to life for long periods or not.

a reply to: andy06shake

I realize your position on this site is to push the current propaganda but one has to ask what point are you trying to make as your circular logic goes nowhere ? ad homini attacks diminish your argument to the point of repetitive boredom. Which also make you look like a bot or algorithm response. Anyone with a creative sense of humanity can see that unless some olive branches are offered you and many others will lose the ability to function. Whether or not radiated tracks of land remain dangerous to life for long periods or not.

Here is an article from 2014 in the Guardian.

This was before our media was completely co-opted to become a propaganda machine for the West's war mongering around the world.

www.theguardian.com...

It's not Russia that's pushed Ukraine to the brink of war

The attempt to lever Kiev into the western camp by ousting an elected leader made conflict certain. It could be a threat to us all

The threat of war in Ukraine is growing. As the unelected government in Kiev declares itself unable to control the rebellion in the country's east, John Kerry brands Russia a rogue state. The US and the European Union step up sanctions against the Kremlin, accusing it of destabilising Ukraine. The White House is reported to be set on a new cold war policy with the aim of turning Russia into a "pariah state".

That might be more explicable if what is going on in eastern Ukraine now were not the mirror image of what took place in Kiev a couple of months ago. Then, it was armed protesters in Maidan Square seizing government buildings and demanding a change of government and constitution. US and European leaders championed the "masked militants" and denounced the elected government for its crackdown, just as they now back the unelected government's use of force against rebels occupying police stations and town halls in cities such as Slavyansk and Donetsk.

"America is with you," Senator John McCain told demonstrators then, standing shoulder to shoulder with the leader of the far-right Svoboda party as the US ambassador haggled with the state department over who would make up the new Ukrainian government.

When the Ukrainian president was replaced by a US-selected administration, in an entirely unconstitutional takeover, politicians such as William Hague brazenly misled parliament about the legality of what had taken place: the imposition of a pro-western government on Russia's most neuralgic and politically divided neighbour.

Putin bit back, taking a leaf out of the US street-protest playbook – even though, as in Kiev, the protests that spread from Crimea to eastern Ukraine evidently have mass support. But what had been a glorious cry for freedom in Kiev became infiltration and insatiable aggression in Sevastopol and Luhansk.

After Crimeans voted overwhelmingly to join Russia, the bulk of the western media abandoned any hint of even-handed coverage. So Putin is now routinely compared to Hitler, while the role of the fascistic right on the streets and in the new Ukrainian regime has been airbrushed out of most reporting as Putinist propaganda.

So you don't hear much about the Ukrainian government's veneration of wartime Nazi collaborators and pogromists, or the arson attacks on the homes and offices of elected communist leaders, or the integration of the extreme Right Sector into the national guard, while the anti-semitism and white supremacism of the government's ultra-nationalists is assiduously played down, and false identifications of Russian special forces are relayed as fact.

The reality is that, after two decades of eastward Nato expansion, this crisis was triggered by the west's attempt to pull Ukraine decisively into its orbit and defence structure, via an explicitly anti-Moscow EU association agreement. Its rejection led to the Maidan protests and the installation of an anti-Russian administration – rejected by half the country – that went on to sign the EU and International Monetary Fund agreements regardless.

No Russian government could have acquiesced in such a threat from territory that was at the heart of both Russia and the Soviet Union. Putin's absorption of Crimea and support for the rebellion in eastern Ukraine is clearly defensive, and the red line now drawn: the east of Ukraine, at least, is not going to be swallowed up by Nato or the EU

Let's be clear here, Putin is just as guilty for this conflict and he's been operating the same tactics as the US and Britian, but the war was most certainly set in motion by the West.
Do not let anyone gaslight you into believing otherwise - and do not let them airbrush the history of what the West did to trigger this war.

originally posted by: UKTruth
Here is an article from 2014 in the Guardian.

This was before our media was completely co-opted to become a propaganda machine for the West's war mongering around the world.

www.theguardian.com...

It's not Russia that's pushed Ukraine to the brink of war

The attempt to lever Kiev into the western camp by ousting an elected leader made conflict certain. It could be a threat to us all

The threat of war in Ukraine is growing. As the unelected government in Kiev declares itself unable to control the rebellion in the country's east, John Kerry brands Russia a rogue state. The US and the European Union step up sanctions against the Kremlin, accusing it of destabilising Ukraine. The White House is reported to be set on a new cold war policy with the aim of turning Russia into a "pariah state".

That might be more explicable if what is going on in eastern Ukraine now were not the mirror image of what took place in Kiev a couple of months ago. Then, it was armed protesters in Maidan Square seizing government buildings and demanding a change of government and constitution. US and European leaders championed the "masked militants" and denounced the elected government for its crackdown, just as they now back the unelected government's use of force against rebels occupying police stations and town halls in cities such as Slavyansk and Donetsk.

"America is with you," Senator John McCain told demonstrators then, standing shoulder to shoulder with the leader of the far-right Svoboda party as the US ambassador haggled with the state department over who would make up the new Ukrainian government.

When the Ukrainian president was replaced by a US-selected administration, in an entirely unconstitutional takeover, politicians such as William Hague brazenly misled parliament about the legality of what had taken place: the imposition of a pro-western government on Russia's most neuralgic and politically divided neighbour.

Putin bit back, taking a leaf out of the US street-protest playbook – even though, as in Kiev, the protests that spread from Crimea to eastern Ukraine evidently have mass support. But what had been a glorious cry for freedom in Kiev became infiltration and insatiable aggression in Sevastopol and Luhansk.

After Crimeans voted overwhelmingly to join Russia, the bulk of the western media abandoned any hint of even-handed coverage. So Putin is now routinely compared to Hitler, while the role of the fascistic right on the streets and in the new Ukrainian regime has been airbrushed out of most reporting as Putinist propaganda.

So you don't hear much about the Ukrainian government's veneration of wartime Nazi collaborators and pogromists, or the arson attacks on the homes and offices of elected communist leaders, or the integration of the extreme Right Sector into the national guard, while the anti-semitism and white supremacism of the government's ultra-nationalists is assiduously played down, and false identifications of Russian special forces are relayed as fact.

The reality is that, after two decades of eastward Nato expansion, this crisis was triggered by the west's attempt to pull Ukraine decisively into its orbit and defence structure, via an explicitly anti-Moscow EU association agreement. Its rejection led to the Maidan protests and the installation of an anti-Russian administration – rejected by half the country – that went on to sign the EU and International Monetary Fund agreements regardless.

No Russian government could have acquiesced in such a threat from territory that was at the heart of both Russia and the Soviet Union. Putin's absorption of Crimea and support for the rebellion in eastern Ukraine is clearly defensive, and the red line now drawn: the east of Ukraine, at least, is not going to be swallowed up by Nato or the EU

Let's be clear here, Putin is just as guilty for this conflict and he's been operating the same tactics as the US and Britian, but the war was most certainly set in motion by the West.
Do not let anyone gaslight you into believing otherwise - and do not let them airbrush the history of what the West did to trigger this war.

That's a largely fact free opinion piece.

Have you read and agree with any other articles by him?

Basically the west always is in the wrong, Stalin was misunderstood, terror attacks are justified and Corbyn would have been a good PM.

originally posted by: UKTruth
a reply to: andy06shake

Nonsense

There was clear and justifiable reason to invade Ukraine. A coup installed a pro west govt and put Ukraine on a path to close ties with the EU, whilst at the same time allowing NATO missiles to be stationed in Ukraine.

If Russia worked with Mexican cartels to install a new pro Russian govt in Mexico and move in Russian missile systems, i don’t think we’d be critical of the US response.

Russia (in both imperial and soviet union form) has a long history of invading and oppressing countries in the east of Europe. Is it any wonder these countries want to be in NATO?

The west did no more and probably a lot less to influence Ukrainian politics than Russia in the run up to 2014.

It was Russia that funded terror groups in the east of Ukraine.

It was Russia that invaded crimea.

It was Russia that invaded in 2022.

The west may not he blameless, but responsibility for this war and the deaths and damage caused sits overwhelming with Russia.

a reply to: UKTruth

Seumas Milne?
en.wikipedia.org...

I have zero respect or regard for what that man thinks or says.

Personally I've never suggested that 'The West' did not support the overthrow of Yanukovych. But you've got ask yourself exactly why there was so much opposition to him and why the protests were so widespread.

Putin actively bribed the man to do a U-turn on the policies he was elected on and to take a more pro-Russian stance against the wishes of the Ukrainian people.

No justification to invade a non-threatening nation whose independence, sovereignty and borders his country had sworn to respect and all the subsequent death and destruction.
That's all on Putin.
He ordered the invasion.
He could stop it in an instant yet chooses not to.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: UKTruth

Seumas Milne?
en.wikipedia.org...

I have zero respect or regard for what that man thinks or says.

Personally I've never suggested that 'The West' did not support the overthrow of Yanukovych. But you've got ask yourself exactly why there was so much opposition to him and why the protests were so widespread.

Putin actively bribed the man to do a U-turn on the policies he was elected on and to take a more pro-Russian stance against the wishes of the Ukrainian people.

No justification to invade a non-threatening nation whose independence, sovereignty and borders his country had sworn to respect and all the subsequent death and destruction.
That's all on Putin.
He ordered the invasion.
He could stop it in an instant yet chooses not to.

Seamus Milne has amongst other things argued that the Falkland islanders don't have any rights to determine their future.

It's little winder he has zero respect for Ukrainian independence and his opinions should be treated as the anti democratic nonsense they are.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: UKTruth

Seumas Milne?
en.wikipedia.org...

I have zero respect or regard for what that man thinks or says.

Personally I've never suggested that 'The West' did not support the overthrow of Yanukovych. But you've got ask yourself exactly why there was so much opposition to him and why the protests were so widespread.

Putin actively bribed the man to do a U-turn on the policies he was elected on and to take a more pro-Russian stance against the wishes of the Ukrainian people.

No justification to invade a non-threatening nation whose independence, sovereignty and borders his country had sworn to respect and all the subsequent death and destruction.
That's all on Putin.
He ordered the invasion.
He could stop it in an instant yet chooses not to.

The US and the West actively bribed the Ukraine too.
They ended up installing the govt they wanted and continued to bribe that govt - Biden famously bribing the govt on video to remove the countries senior prosecutor.
Stop with the 'Putin' did it mindset.
There are no good guys here and the fact is it was the West who triggered this war.

Ask myself why people wanted to overthrow the govt? They didn't - some of them did. About 50%. The other 50% did not.
That's the issue. A divided country.

The invasion was fully justified.
Ukraine ceased to become a sovereign state when it's govt was overthrown in a coup.

originally posted by: BedevereTheWise

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: UKTruth

Seumas Milne?
en.wikipedia.org...

I have zero respect or regard for what that man thinks or says.

Personally I've never suggested that 'The West' did not support the overthrow of Yanukovych. But you've got ask yourself exactly why there was so much opposition to him and why the protests were so widespread.

Putin actively bribed the man to do a U-turn on the policies he was elected on and to take a more pro-Russian stance against the wishes of the Ukrainian people.

No justification to invade a non-threatening nation whose independence, sovereignty and borders his country had sworn to respect and all the subsequent death and destruction.
That's all on Putin.
He ordered the invasion.
He could stop it in an instant yet chooses not to.

Seamus Milne has amongst other things argued that the Falkland islanders don't have any rights to determine their future.

It's little winder he has zero respect for Ukrainian independence and his opinions should be treated as the anti democratic nonsense they are.

Well of course - unless it's 'Putin is the devil' then it must be nonsense.
You have been brainwashed.

The fact remains that the US installed a Govt in Ukraine after they supported a coup against the sitting Govt.
They placed missiles in Ukraine, right on Russia's doorstep.

originally posted by: BedevereTheWise

originally posted by: UKTruth
a reply to: andy06shake

Nonsense

There was clear and justifiable reason to invade Ukraine. A coup installed a pro west govt and put Ukraine on a path to close ties with the EU, whilst at the same time allowing NATO missiles to be stationed in Ukraine.

If Russia worked with Mexican cartels to install a new pro Russian govt in Mexico and move in Russian missile systems, i don’t think we’d be critical of the US response.

Russia (in both imperial and soviet union form) has a long history of invading and oppressing countries in the east of Europe. Is it any wonder these countries want to be in NATO?

The west did no more and probably a lot less to influence Ukrainian politics than Russia in the run up to 2014.

It was Russia that funded terror groups in the east of Ukraine.

It was Russia that invaded crimea.

It was Russia that invaded in 2022.

The west may not he blameless, but responsibility for this war and the deaths and damage caused sits overwhelming with Russia.

The war is a direct consequence of the actions of the US and other European countries supporting a coup and installing a US selected Govt in Ukraine.
That makes them the primary instigators of the war.

If you spoil for a war, it is not legitimate to fully blame the other side for military aggression - or even lay most of the blame on them.

The fact is that Russia would not even have invaded Crimea if the Govt in Ukraine had not been removed.
It's time to just face up to that - it was simply a case that the US and European nations did not like a pro Russian Govt in Ukraine and decided to topple it.

a reply to: UKTruth

What missiles?

a reply to: UKTruth

"It was simply a case that Ukrainians did not like a pro Russian Govt in Ukraine and decided to topple it."

There, corrected.

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: UKTruth

What missiles?

Trump approved arming the Ukranians with Javelin missiles in 2018.
They were warned that arming Ukraine crossed a line.
You overthrow a Govt and install a new one happy to do your bidding and then arm them - what do you think is going to happen?

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: UKTruth

"It was simply a case that Ukrainians did not like a pro Russian Govt in Ukraine and decided to topple it."

There, corrected.

The people of Ukraine are not one block that can be characterised by your propaganda.
It was a minoirty of Ukranians who organised - with the help of the West - to overthrow the Govt.