The Brink has been reached.

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: UKTruth

What missiles?

Trump approved arming the Ukranians with Javelin missiles in 2018.
They were warned that arming Ukraine crossed a line.
You overthrow a Govt and install a new one happy to do your bidding and then arm them - what do you think is going to happen?

So 4 years after Russia invaded?

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: UKTruth

"It was simply a case that Ukrainians did not like a pro Russian Govt in Ukraine and decided to topple it."

There, corrected.

The people of Ukraine are not one block that can be characterised by your propaganda.
It was a minoirty of Ukranians who organised - with the help of the West - to overthrow the Govt.

It was a minority of Americans who had an issue tax on tea.

However much like the case of the ungrateful colonials there have been elections since and no desire to join Putin new russian empire.

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: BedevereTheWise

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: UKTruth

Seumas Milne?
en.wikipedia.org...

I have zero respect or regard for what that man thinks or says.

Personally I've never suggested that 'The West' did not support the overthrow of Yanukovych. But you've got ask yourself exactly why there was so much opposition to him and why the protests were so widespread.

Putin actively bribed the man to do a U-turn on the policies he was elected on and to take a more pro-Russian stance against the wishes of the Ukrainian people.

No justification to invade a non-threatening nation whose independence, sovereignty and borders his country had sworn to respect and all the subsequent death and destruction.
That's all on Putin.
He ordered the invasion.
He could stop it in an instant yet chooses not to.

Seamus Milne has amongst other things argued that the Falkland islanders don't have any rights to determine their future.

It's little winder he has zero respect for Ukrainian independence and his opinions should be treated as the anti democratic nonsense they are.

Well of course - unless it's 'Putin is the devil' then it must be nonsense.
You have been brainwashed.

The fact remains that the US installed a Govt in Ukraine after they supported a coup against the sitting Govt.
They placed missiles in Ukraine, right on Russia's doorstep.

Someone having a different opinion not mean they are brainwashed

Suggesting such, particularly while posting outright russian propaganda, does not do much for your credibility.

originally posted by: BedevereTheWise

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: UKTruth

What missiles?

Trump approved arming the Ukranians with Javelin missiles in 2018.
They were warned that arming Ukraine crossed a line.
You overthrow a Govt and install a new one happy to do your bidding and then arm them - what do you think is going to happen?

So 4 years after Russia invaded?

No well before Russia invaded the Donbass region.
The annexe of Crimea was in response to the Ukrainian Govt being overthrown.
The US decided to escalate further - something they KNEW would escalate the tensions because Obama had continually refused to do it.

originally posted by: BedevereTheWise

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: BedevereTheWise

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: UKTruth

Seumas Milne?
en.wikipedia.org...

I have zero respect or regard for what that man thinks or says.

Personally I've never suggested that 'The West' did not support the overthrow of Yanukovych. But you've got ask yourself exactly why there was so much opposition to him and why the protests were so widespread.

Putin actively bribed the man to do a U-turn on the policies he was elected on and to take a more pro-Russian stance against the wishes of the Ukrainian people.

No justification to invade a non-threatening nation whose independence, sovereignty and borders his country had sworn to respect and all the subsequent death and destruction.
That's all on Putin.
He ordered the invasion.
He could stop it in an instant yet chooses not to.

Seamus Milne has amongst other things argued that the Falkland islanders don't have any rights to determine their future.

It's little winder he has zero respect for Ukrainian independence and his opinions should be treated as the anti democratic nonsense they are.

Well of course - unless it's 'Putin is the devil' then it must be nonsense.
You have been brainwashed.

The fact remains that the US installed a Govt in Ukraine after they supported a coup against the sitting Govt.
They placed missiles in Ukraine, right on Russia's doorstep.

Someone having a different opinion not mean they are brainwashed

Suggesting such, particularly while posting outright russian propaganda, does not do much for your credibility.

When that opinion is entirely one sided on an issue that has been building for over 20 years, with multiple miss steps and escalations by all parties, then, yes, it can legitimately be called brainwashing. To state such is entirely correct.

originally posted by: BedevereTheWise

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: UKTruth

"It was simply a case that Ukrainians did not like a pro Russian Govt in Ukraine and decided to topple it."

There, corrected.

The people of Ukraine are not one block that can be characterised by your propaganda.
It was a minoirty of Ukranians who organised - with the help of the West - to overthrow the Govt.

It was a minority of Americans who had an issue tax on tea.

However much like the case of the ungrateful colonials there have been elections since and no desire to join Putin new russian empire.

Crimea voted in Putins favour.

a reply to: UKTruth

Ah, those free and fair referendums.

Did any of the refugees have a say?

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: UKTruth

Ah, those free and fair referendums.

Did any of the refugees have a say?

Ah there it is...
It must have been rigged because anything that gets in the way of a good Darth Vader/LukeSkywalker story musn't be real.
Nearly 70% of Crimeans were Russian in 2014. results make sense.
Far more believable than the US 2020 elections
But I suppose, Channel 4 will give us the truth with a mini series.

a reply to: UKTruth

I suppose you think Putin's election was free and fair, too?

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: UKTruth

I suppose you think Putin's election was free and fair, too?

I have about as much trust in Russian elections than US elections- i.e. none.

Given that the Crimean referendum was primarily about Russians votng to be part of Russia as opposed to an American run Ukraine - I have more faith in those results.

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: BedevereTheWise

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: UKTruth

"It was simply a case that Ukrainians did not like a pro Russian Govt in Ukraine and decided to topple it."

There, corrected.

The people of Ukraine are not one block that can be characterised by your propaganda.
It was a minoirty of Ukranians who organised - with the help of the West - to overthrow the Govt.

It was a minority of Americans who had an issue tax on tea.

However much like the case of the ungrateful colonials there have been elections since and no desire to join Putin new russian empire.

Crimea voted in Putins favour.

In the Ukraine Independence referendum it voted yes

When under Russian military occupation it voted to return to Russia.

I have said before that if there is a legitimate democratic wish in Crimes to return to Russia that should be honoured. However Russia doesn't get to invade then declare that is the case.

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: BedevereTheWise

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: BedevereTheWise

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: UKTruth

Seumas Milne?
en.wikipedia.org...

I have zero respect or regard for what that man thinks or says.

Personally I've never suggested that 'The West' did not support the overthrow of Yanukovych. But you've got ask yourself exactly why there was so much opposition to him and why the protests were so widespread.

Putin actively bribed the man to do a U-turn on the policies he was elected on and to take a more pro-Russian stance against the wishes of the Ukrainian people.

No justification to invade a non-threatening nation whose independence, sovereignty and borders his country had sworn to respect and all the subsequent death and destruction.
That's all on Putin.
He ordered the invasion.
He could stop it in an instant yet chooses not to.

Seamus Milne has amongst other things argued that the Falkland islanders don't have any rights to determine their future.

It's little winder he has zero respect for Ukrainian independence and his opinions should be treated as the anti democratic nonsense they are.

Well of course - unless it's 'Putin is the devil' then it must be nonsense.
You have been brainwashed.

The fact remains that the US installed a Govt in Ukraine after they supported a coup against the sitting Govt.
They placed missiles in Ukraine, right on Russia's doorstep.

Someone having a different opinion not mean they are brainwashed

Suggesting such, particularly while posting outright russian propaganda, does not do much for your credibility.

When that opinion is entirely one sided on an issue that has been building for over 20 years, with multiple miss steps and escalations by all parties, then, yes, it can legitimately be called brainwashing. To state such is entirely correct.

Misteps yes

Only one side has actually invaded another country and cased thousands of deaths and billions of damage.

Sorry attempting to justify Putin's invasion on the basis of western actions, when Russia has consistently done far worse is far more brainwashed.

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: UKTruth

I suppose you think Putin's election was free and fair, too?

I have about as much trust in Russian elections than US elections- i.e. none.

Given that the Crimean referendum was primarily about Russians votng to be part of Russia as opposed to an American run Ukraine - I have more faith in those results.

So confirmation bias then.

a reply to: BedevereTheWise

Do you believe that all elections in the US and Russia are done 100% legitimately?

originally posted by: PorkChop96
a reply to: BedevereTheWise

Do you believe that all elections in the US and Russia are done 100% legitimately?

No. Not 100%

But far more legitimately in the West than in Russia.

a reply to: BedevereTheWise

How so?

originally posted by: PorkChop96
a reply to: BedevereTheWise

How so?

Lots of reasons.

Start with how many Western leaders have been in power for 25 years.

originally posted by: BedevereTheWise

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: UKTruth

I suppose you think Putin's election was free and fair, too?

I have about as much trust in Russian elections than US elections- i.e. none.

Given that the Crimean referendum was primarily about Russians votng to be part of Russia as opposed to an American run Ukraine - I have more faith in those results.

So confirmation bias then.

You clearly do not know what that is.

originally posted by: BedevereTheWise

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: BedevereTheWise

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: BedevereTheWise

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: UKTruth

Seumas Milne?
en.wikipedia.org...

I have zero respect or regard for what that man thinks or says.

Personally I've never suggested that 'The West' did not support the overthrow of Yanukovych. But you've got ask yourself exactly why there was so much opposition to him and why the protests were so widespread.

Putin actively bribed the man to do a U-turn on the policies he was elected on and to take a more pro-Russian stance against the wishes of the Ukrainian people.

No justification to invade a non-threatening nation whose independence, sovereignty and borders his country had sworn to respect and all the subsequent death and destruction.
That's all on Putin.
He ordered the invasion.
He could stop it in an instant yet chooses not to.

Seamus Milne has amongst other things argued that the Falkland islanders don't have any rights to determine their future.

It's little winder he has zero respect for Ukrainian independence and his opinions should be treated as the anti democratic nonsense they are.

Well of course - unless it's 'Putin is the devil' then it must be nonsense.
You have been brainwashed.

The fact remains that the US installed a Govt in Ukraine after they supported a coup against the sitting Govt.
They placed missiles in Ukraine, right on Russia's doorstep.

Someone having a different opinion not mean they are brainwashed

Suggesting such, particularly while posting outright russian propaganda, does not do much for your credibility.

When that opinion is entirely one sided on an issue that has been building for over 20 years, with multiple miss steps and escalations by all parties, then, yes, it can legitimately be called brainwashing. To state such is entirely correct.

Misteps yes

Only one side has actually invaded another country and cased thousands of deaths and billions of damage.

Sorry attempting to justify Putin's invasion on the basis of western actions, when Russia has consistently done far worse is far more brainwashed.

So who invades determines who is to blame for a conflict?
Naive at best.

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: BedevereTheWise

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: UKTruth

I suppose you think Putin's election was free and fair, too?

I have about as much trust in Russian elections than US elections- i.e. none.

Given that the Crimean referendum was primarily about Russians votng to be part of Russia as opposed to an American run Ukraine - I have more faith in those results.

So confirmation bias then.

You clearly do not know what that is.

Sorry you have been brainwashed into it.

Apparently that is the standard for discussion.