The Ukrainian sortie into Kursk was coordinated by British intelligence services

originally posted by: CriticalStinker
a reply to: rickymouse

Remember, there were agreements when Ukraine left the soviet union, one of them was not to be able to join Nato or have weapons close to Russia.

What agreement was that?

The verbal agreement and even a written agreement signed but not made official legally. That has been discussed on ATS Before and it sure appears it was true. Just because it was never done properly does not mean it was not legitimate. That is the main reason Ukraine was not allowed to join NATO

a reply to: rickymouse

By people and administrations long gone.

originally posted by: alldaylong
a reply to: rickymouse

Remember, there were agreements when Ukraine left the soviet union, one of them was not to be able to join Nato or have weapons close to Russia.

There was no such agreement.

You just made that up.

There was no legal agreement drawn up...it was assumed because everyone agreed with it that it would never happen, and that is the main reason that Ukraine was not allowed to join NATO. Evidently now a person's word is not worth anything unless some high paying lawyer draws up a legal contract with loopholes in it.

originally posted by: rickymouse

originally posted by: CriticalStinker
a reply to: rickymouse

Remember, there were agreements when Ukraine left the soviet union, one of them was not to be able to join Nato or have weapons close to Russia.

What agreement was that?

The verbal agreement and even a written agreement signed but not made official legally. That has been discussed on ATS Before and it sure appears it was true. Just because it was never done properly does not mean it was not legitimate. That is the main reason Ukraine was not allowed to join NATO

I’ve looked into it, and there is some accounts that there was a verbal agreement. But there’s one key figure who disputes that, Mikhail Gorbachev. He even takes some of the blame for not making that part of the discussion.

M.G.: The topic of “NATO expansion” was not discussed at all, and it wasn’t brought up in those years. I say this with full responsibility. Not a singe Eastern European country raised the issue, not even after the Warsaw Pact ceased to exist in 1991. Western leaders didn’t bring it up, either. Another issue we brought up was discussed: making sure that NATO’s military structures would not advance and that additional armed forces from the alliance would not be deployed on the territory of the then-GDR after German reunification. Baker’s statement, mentioned in your question, was made in that context. Kohl and [German Vice Chancellor Hans-Dietrich] Genscher talked about it.

interview

I’m not familiar with the source, but it’s the only one with the full transcript I could find. You’re welcome to google Mikhail Gorbachev NATO Expansion and look for yourself though.

Let’s say two leaders did make a verbal agreement, I don’t think that does hold up over time. If two leaders say something verbal and it’s not recorded in no uncertain terms, how are future leaders bound to a handshake deal?

But in any event, I don’t think we can say with certainty that was a deal. I’ve looked into it many times and never found anything definitive.

a reply to: rickymouse

Evidently now a person's word is not worth anything.

You are referring to Putin i take it, when he stated he had no intention of invading Ukraine.

a reply to: andy06shake

I do not like lying, I will say how I truely feel about something and try to explain it well enough so people can know why I feel that way. I very much dislike people who will lie to get personal gain , especially politicians. I usually do not challenge them because if people have strong opinions they have formed, they often do not listen to reason. I have just changed the subject or said I have to go when I see this happening in the real world...this site is not the real world, chances are I will never ever meet any of you guys...but I will not agree with something that is not right without voicing my concern. I am sure the leaders of Ukraine and the leaders of Russia both think they are right. Same with GAZA and Israel.

Two wrongs never make a right except when Karma comes into play.

a reply to: rickymouse

Ukraine gave up it's nukes in exchange for Russia agreeing not to attack it. The Minsk Agreement.

Which Russia broke.

Put bombs next to Moscow?!!!!

Is this some kind of alternate reality?

a reply to: rickymouse

I do not like lying, I will say how I truely feel about something and try to explain it well enough so people can know why I feel that way. I very much dislike people who will lie to get personal gain , especially politicians.

I usually do not challenge them because if people have strong opinions they have formed, they often do not listen to reason. I have just changed the subject or said I have to go when I see this happening in the real world...this site is not the real world, chances are I will never ever meet any of you guys...but I will not agree with something that is not right without voicing my concern.

Nor should you.

I am sure the leaders of Ukraine and the leaders of Russia both think they are right. Same with GAZA and Israel.

The thing is Russia invaded the place, twice back in 2014, and again in 2022 with Putin's Special Military Operation.

They are the ones in the wrong postcode i might add.

As to Gaza and Israel, that's another matter and separate geography.

Two wrongs never make a right except when Karma comes into play.

Karma can be problematic due to its oversimplification of life's complexities.

It can lead to the likes of victim-blaming for a start, where misfortune is seen as deserved due to past actions.

What Russia did was wrong based on lies and falsehood, no two ways about that fact.

a reply to: CriticalStinker

It’s Ukraines fault they got invaded and are getting land stolen from them?

No, it isn't Ukraine's fault. It is Barack Obama, Victoria Nuland, Blackrock and this US government's fault. On the other hand, it is Ukraine's fault for trusting these murderous lowlife sons of bitches.


PS: And let's not forget Tony Blair either. He was in on this conspiracy up to his eyeballs. Or was it David Camron that sabotaged the Minsk negotiations in 2022? I don't remember.

a reply to: charlest2

I'm no fan of Blair, but you do realize, he's been out of power for a good many years now?

a reply to: rickymouse

NATO told Ukraine in no uncertain terms that it didn't have a chance of even being considered for membership for at least another 25 years - that was back in 2008 if I remember correctly.

So, in 2033 at the earliest Ukraine could apply to join NATO.
It would then be given a Membership Action Plan (MAP) that would detail what steps Ukraine had to take to gain membership.

Some MAP's are pretty straight forward with a relatively short time scale others are more complicated with stringent criteria that have to be met.

We'll never know if Ukraine would ever have been offered a MAP or entry into NATO through due course and procedure because once Putin invaded Ukraine he more or less guaranteed that Ukraine would become a member at some point.

a reply to: Oldcarpy2

Yes! I'm getting forgetful in my old age. See my edit above.

Zelensky initialed the agreement and later reneged on it after pressure from one of those sons of bitches in England.

I'll bet you know who I'm talking about.

a reply to: charlest2

What Minsk Negotiations in 2022?

"Camron" ( sic) wasn't PM then

Keep up.

a reply to: charlest2

Oh, those bastard English .

Sounds familiar?

a reply to: Oldcarpy2

Maybe it was in 2023. I have lost interest by now.


David Cameron meets Zelensky in Ukraine on first trip as foreign secretary

Sleezy bastard.

David Cameron was Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs between 13 November 2023 and 5 July 2024.

a reply to: Oldcarpy2

You think Brittan is special in that regard? Every nation has their sleezy bastards. Even your beloved Brittan.

a reply to: charlest2

2022? Keep up.

I thought you'd flounced off?

"a reply to: charlest2

"You think Brittan is special in that regard? Every nation has their sleezy bastards. Even your beloved Brittan."



"Brittan"?

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: Oldcarpy2

Look at the fool trying to spread division and discontent.

I mean its certainly nothing new RT out with his big wooden spoon, mixing it at all angles.

Anyhoo complete tripe and nonsense as per usual.

You would think he would learn a different tune to hum by now................

You sound hungry. Have a wee bit of haggis and some blood sausage to salve your aching stomach.

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: FlyersFan

Of course we did it. 007 is right in there as we speak....

I thought bond died.

Does he vote Democrat now? I heard that voting democrat is proof of life after death 👍