Going to Heaven

a reply to: FlyersFan

Every time you sin, you turn away from God, you are in danger of hell.
Every time you repent and ask forgiveness, you are saved.
I gave the passages showing 'saved' people can indeed fall away.
And it's 'death to the soul' when they do.
They must be saved again. It's called repentance.

If you have to keep going back and doing anything then what was the
point of Christ coming here at all. There is nothing you can do to
save yourself at all. Your salvation doesn't depend on anything you
can do. Once Christ died on the cross all you have to do to be saved
is accept what he did and not do anything. And anyone who "falls away"
as you say? Could not have loved Jesus Christ in the first place.
That would be my assumption but only God knows for sure so
leave that to him. Again ALL my sins are forgiven washed in the
blood of Jesus Christ. I'm saved from condemnation at the judgement.

Lets say I do some work on the sabbath am I now unsaved?

So what is it now?

Saved by works or faith?

originally posted by: Saloon
If you have to keep going back and doing anything then what was the
point of Christ coming here at all.

That doesn't make sense. Of course you have to return to Christ if
you leave him via sin. Otherwise you are separated from Christ.
That is both common sense and scriptural.

Paul says, “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil. 2:12).

There is nothing you can do to save yourself at all.
Your salvation doesn't depend on anything you
can do.

Yes there is. You have to accept Christ and that means
turning back to him when you reject him via sin.

And anyone who "falls away"
as you say? Could not have loved Jesus Christ in the first place.

THAT is the fundamentalist 'go to' for trying to justify the notion
of 'once saved always saved' in regards to fallen away Christians.
Yes they were saved and loved God. Yes they threw it away.
Scripture even gives examples of 'brethren' who fall away.
It happens all the time.

Again ALL my sins are forgiven washed in the
blood of Jesus Christ. I'm saved from condemnation at the judgement.

As long as you don't turn away from God.

Lets say I do some work on the sabbath am now unsaved?

I have no idea.

originally posted by: Terpene
So what is it now?

Saved by works or faith?

Scripture can be quoted that says faith or that says faith and works. Both are there. Martin Luther added the word 'alone' when he was wanting to carve up scripture to suit himself.

Romans 3:28: “For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law.”

James 2:14-26. 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

a reply to: FlyersFan

That doesn't make sense. Of course you have to return to Christ if
you leave him via sin. Otherwise you are separated from Christ.
That is both common sense and scriptural.

What you insist is repetitious and sells the blood on the cross short as well as
it ignores scripture.

1 John 1:7. “But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.”

My sins are gone pal and now I can follow him knowing I'm forgiven of all my sins.



You only have to read your Bible

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

originally posted by: Saloon
What you insist is repetitious and sells the blood on the cross short as well as
it ignores scripture.

Nope. I gave the scripture quotes to back it up.
Paul says, “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil. 2:12).

My sins are gone pal

I'm not your 'pal'. Don't be condescending.

and now I can follow him knowing I'm forgiven of all my sins.

Sure. And when you sin again you have to ask for forgiveness.
You turn away when you sin. You have to turn back.

Romans 11:20 - FEAR WHAT COULD HAPPEN

Romans 11:20 They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 20 Yes, but remember—those branches were broken off because they didn't believe in Christ, and you are there because you do believe. So don't think highly of yourself, but fear what could happen.

You only have to read your Bible

I gave the scripture quotes showing people do fall away and it's 'death' for their souls.
Did you read them?

Matthew 24:13 - "But the one who endures and bears up to the end will be saved."

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Sure. 'Saved' for those who believe in Him. But those who turn their backs on Him through sin are rejecting Him and are no longer saved unless they repent. I gave the scripture to support that. 'Once saved always saved' is not scriptural.

I could post 'repentance scripture' all day long. It's everywhere in scripture.
You have to repent of sin to stay in God's good grace.

Acts 3:19 - Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,

Romans 2:4 - Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

Jeremiah 3:19 - After I strayed, I repented; after I came to understand, I beat my breast. I was ashamed and humiliated because I bore the disgrace of my youth.

a reply to: FlyersFan

I'm not your 'pal'. Don't be condescending.

We could be pals!

I could post 'repentance scripture' all day long. It's everywhere in scripture.
You have to repent of sin to stay in God's good grace.

Are you posting scriptures that are speaking to the Jews or to the
church and the gentiles? Do you understand how to rightly divide
the scriptures?

2 Timothy 2:15 KJV
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

You see most verses that speak of faith and works for salvation apply mostly to the jews.

For instance
Acts 3:19 - Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,

This passage speaks to the Isrealites not to you and I in the church age.
In fact it continues.

20 and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus.

You get what what I'm lay'n down? Of course the Isrealites had to repent and turn to God
they had no other way of salvation.

When we divide the word correctly according to whom God is speaking as well
as when? What I'm saying becomes much clearer. We're the more spiritual church
age as gentiles after the cross. But the jews because they didn't accept Christ
still are under the more physical law.

a reply to: Terpene

So what is it now?

Saved by works or faith?

That's the Soteriological part of Systematic Theology.
It's called systematic because the parts come together to form a system.

1) What does it mean to be a living human?
2) How does 1) change upon death?
3) Is there something potentially better available after 2)
4) If so, how do I achieve 3) ?

The topic of the thread is 3), but 1)-4) all fit together.

If you read the Athanasian creed, you will come to the conclusion that salvation(4) is through correct doctrine. The OP is not a believer in Athanasian Creed, so a different system is under discussion.

a reply to: Saloon

You must repent of sin to be right with God.
Sin is a turning away from God.
Repentance brings you back to God.
Christians fell from grace, I posted the scripture.

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil. 2:12)

It doesn't say to sit back and take advantage of being saved.
It says to work it out with fear and trembling.
Always be on guard because the devil doesn't sleep and is like a roaring lion.

This is not a Christian forum, please go back to Jesus camp dotcom. This is actually a conspiracy forum.

You people slide in everywhere on your little self important mission to save souls or whatever.

a reply to: FlyersFan

It doesn't say to sit back and take advantage of being saved.
It says to work it out with fear and trembling.
Always be on guard because the devil doesn't sleep and is like a roaring lion.

Who said that? Take advantage? Anyone who would do that is no one I
need to consider. I can't understand why it concerns you so much.
You don't seem to understand that God had to make it easy by the
power of the cross. Or no one would come to Christ.

To the church of Ephesians

(Ephesians 2:8-9). Grace Alone. Faith Alone. Grace alone means that God loves, forgives, and saves us not because of who we are or what we do, but because of the work of Christ.

That's why you will get contradictions and fallacy in your doctrine.

Romans 10:9 says, "If you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

originally posted by: Iconic
This is not a Christian forum, please go back to Jesus camp dotcom. This is actually a conspiracy forum.

You people slide in everywhere on your little self important mission to save souls or whatever.

yeah, I agree. There is nothing 'conspiracy' about this thread and it belongs in the off topic 'below top secret' religion forum - IMHO it's just proselytizing.

originally posted by: Saloon
Romans 10:9 says, "If you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

.... until you fall from Grace through sin again and need to repent to bring yourself back to God. I already posted the scripture for that showing believers fall from grace through sin and need to be brought back. I'm not reposting it all.

a reply to: pthena

through correct doctrine.

This could be whatever the "correct" doctrine says?

What's the correct doctrine?

Who's the authority on the matter?

a reply to: Terpene

Fundamentalists think they have the 'correct doctrine'.
Regular mainstream Protestants think they have the 'correct doctrine'.
Catholics think they have the 'correct doctrine'.

For example - 'Once saved always saved' is something that a small portion of fundamentalists believe in. Regular protestants and all Catholics DO NOT. That's a majority of Christianity rejecting 'once saved always saved'. But there is a small minority of Christians who adhere to it. It's a 'feels good' idea someone came up with.

originally posted by: Terpene
Who's the authority on the matter?

Here's one for ya' .... the bible was written and put together by CATHOLIC men. The CATHOLIC Council of Carthage in 397 AD put the bible together. Had to have approval from the Pope in Rome and everything. It's a Catholic book that Protestants use and try to call their own. If you want an authority on correct doctrine, look to the authors and founders of the book ... the Catholics.

There. That ought to really fry some noodles around here. hahahahaha

The 'Old Testament' was written by Jewish people and collated by Jewish scribes and scholars who didn't recognise the Jewish Messiah but they were deliberately blinded in part by GOD to bring/graft Gentile believers into the tree so that there would be 'One new man' in Christ composing of Jew and Gentile, that was also the Bride of Christ.
I see your noodles and raise you a burger, and call.

a reply to: FlyersFan

a reply to: FlyersFan

It's a 'feels good' idea someone came up with.

It's quite interesting to hear that argument!
I'd say it applies to all religions.

originally posted by: Lucius Driftwood
The 'Old Testament' was written by Jewish people and collated by Jewish scribes and scholars

.... and it was Catholic men in a Catholic council in 397AD who decided if they were inspired by God or not. It was Catholic men in a Catholic council who decided if they would go into the Bible or not. The New Testament was written by Catholic men and put together in the bible by Catholic men. Yes, Catholic men wrote it. That was the church at the time and it had a hierarchy that was in tact. Peter was Catholic. Paul was Catholic. John was Catholic. James was Catholic.
They were part of the church that answered to a hierarchy with Peter at the top and James in charge of Jerusalem answering to Peter. It's a Catholic book. Fundamentalists hate that and deny it. It's fun to pull out the FACT of the Catholic Council of Carthage in 397AD and that it created the bible.

I see your noodles and raise you a burger, and call.

haha excellent.

originally posted by: Terpene
It's quite interesting to hear that argument!
I'd say it applies to all religions.

The Rapture cult is another one of those 'feels good' things that were invented recently - the mid 1800s by failed anglican priest Nelson Darby. A small portion of fundamentalist Protestants believe in a pre-tribulation Rapture - a 'get out of suffering' card. They think it's in the bible. It is not. And the vast majority of Christians don't believe in it. But then there are the minority fundamentalists ... and they like to feel good .... so they misinterpret scripture to fit that need they have.