Going to Heaven

a reply to: randomuser

I was corrupted by anatta and anicca at some point. It morphed my world view. Blame the Indian subcontinent.

Heaven is an invalid operation. But I hope i dont leave a memory of a selfish deceptive bitch.

And because selfish deceptive bitch was something that once fit, I have a long way to go to undo an afterlife - that only exists in the memory of my impact on others.

In a weird way, I do the same thing as a person with belief in heaven would do, only to make my remaining impact more positive than negative, and not go to any specific place - in any form upon death.

Subjective definition of "positive" noted.

a reply to: Degradation33

I will write a story.

a reply to: TerryMcGuire

That one interpretation of an old book written with the pen of man is more reliable than all the others.

I'm not seeing your problem here at all. Books that are meant to provide
information of course should be interpreted correctly. And yes the
author knows the correct interpretation. See that's how truth works.

If that is the reasoning behind this believed in God, then you or others can have it.

I'll take it all day long as the most amazing book you could ever read.
You really just have no idea wkat you're missing. It's in no way anything
a closed mind could see. But the truth connects like a single strand thru
every word that completes a gigantic mosaic of the universe in words.

But you're right about one thing. It is old. I'm telling you that book is a trip.

a reply to: Saloon

You may believe me or not as you wish of course when I say I have read it and followed it. I have read it all though. Twice. I found this group interpreted it this way and that group that way. Some of that depended upon which translation of the book was decided upon by the ''clergy'' of whichever particular faith. Some of it depended upon the biases of those doing the interpreting.

You suggest one should read it with an open mind and I agree. I have and my open mind noticed that it was of importance in understanding simple principles of human interaction but it also noticed that much of it was nothing more than gobble de gook, written and or translated by people who wanted to set up religious doctrines that suited their own particular needs for importance. I take those principles as I find need and leave the hogwash to those who close their minds because they believe it is the be all and end all.

a reply to: TerryMcGuire

You suggest one should read it with an open mind and I agree.

Of course I do as well as correctly dividing the text as it applys to the
right times as well as the right people. As directed by the Bible
itself right here.

2 Timothy 2:15 KJV - Study to shew thyself approved unto

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth

How many times you read the Bible two, one hundred, zero. If you don't rightly
divide what is written. You will only end up with false doctrine and believing
something that doesn't apply to you or anyone else in our time. Or worse you
end up with the wrong idea about God the Father. But you likely knew that
having read it and all.

a reply to: Degradation33

Most surmise heaven to be a place. Perhaps its a state of consciousness defined by revelations 144,000 chakra petals indicating enlightenment.

a reply to: glend

No place = utopia.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

"Wisdom tells me I am nothing. Love tells me I am everything. And between the two my life flows."

-- Nisargadatta Maharaj

a reply to: glend

What you are actually is beyond words, but it would be not untrue to say you are nothing whatsoever other than pure, infinite, disembodied consciousness/intelligence; a field of miraculous infinite light; God dreaming itself; an infinite point of pure potential; or the infinite implications of nothing whatsoever.

Peter Brown.

originally posted by: Saloon
So I think once saved always saved is the only thing resonable...

"Once saved always saved" is totally unreasonable and wishful thinking.
If someone at age 20 is 'saved', but then at 40 falls away, they aren't 'saved'.
Judas was doing just fine and would have gone to heaven, but then
he betrayed Christ and threw it away. You CAN throw it away.
Fundamentalists claim otherwise and they are welcome to that
feel good fantasy but reality is different.

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: Saloon
So I think once saved always saved is the only thing resonable...

"Once saved always saved" is totally unreasonable and wishful thinking.
If someone at age 20 is 'saved', but then at 40 falls away, they aren't 'saved'.
Judas was doing just fine and would have gone to heaven, but then
he betrayed Christ and threw it away. You CAN throw it away.
Fundamentalists claim otherwise and they are welcome to that
feel good fantasy but reality is different.

True, absolutely true. Many people often fall to this: "I'm saved so now I can do whatever I want and get away with it". Human ego is a tricky thing and fools a lot of people. It fooled me once as well. Look at what Mike Pence did, he thinks he is righteous still.
Staying in full repentance is the only way I know that shows a commitment to honoring the gift from God that has been given.

a reply to: FlyersFan

If Judas was ever saved it was by grace thru faith. Not by the shed blood
of our Lord and Savior. The fact that he betrayed Jesus surely puts the
worth of his faith at 30 pieces of silver. So much for Judas.

Also if you read all of my post then you would understand that once
saved always saved does certainly apply no matter your arguement.
It is to the saved Christian who doesn't fall away. But lives the rest of
life trying to obey Jesus at his word.

But realistically knowing that in this world we are going to fall short.
The saved doesn't have to
drive himself bonkers everytime he makes a slip. If God knows our
hearts, he knows we are wanting that perfection in our walk with
Jesus.

I love Jesus Christ so I'm trying to live in this world and obey
his words. Walking away doesn't even fit in to that. Walking away
is what you do when you don't love someone. Just the same one
doesn't betray someone they truly love.

Does it make any sense to you that everytime a Christian sins
he isn't saved anymore? And has to start over and ask forgiveness
over and over the rest of his life simply because he still resides in this
world? Do you think that's reasonable?

Not even unreasonable at all.

a reply to: NoCorruptionAllowed

True, absolutely true. "I'm saved so now I can do whatever I want and get away with it". Human ego is a tricky thing and fools a lot of people. It fooled me once as well.

No this is not true and in fact it's really ignorant.

Staying in full repentance is the only way I know that shows a commitment to honoring the gift from God that has been given.

So you're living a completely sinless life now? What is repentence if it isn't obedience?

originally posted by: Saloon
Does it make any sense to you that everytime a Christian sins
he isn't saved anymore and has to start over and ask forgiveness
over and over the rest of his simply because he still resides in this
world? Do you think that's reasonable?.

It's called repentance and yes, all it takes is one sin, one turning
away from God, to throw it all away. Everyone sins and everyone
has to ask for forgiveness every time they sin because each sin
is turning away. You must turn back. There is no 'once saved
always saved no matter what'. That makes no sense and is unreasonable.

According to the false doctrine of 'once saved always saved', Hitler is in Heaven
because Hitler claimed to be a Christian and believe in God.

You CAN fall from Grace. You CAN become separated from God.

Galatians 5:4. “You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Christians who 'wander from the truth' suffer death of the soul. They lose salvation.
James 5:19, 20. “Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.”

2 Peter 2:20-22. “For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: ‘A dog returns to his own vomit,’ and, ‘a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.’”

1 Corinthians 10:12. “Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall."

IF we walk in the light we are saved. Only IF. If we don't walk in the light, then we are not.
1 John 1:7. “But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.”

Brethren are Christians and if they depart from the living God then they have lost 'being saved'.
Hebrews 3:12. Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God.”

More reading here

Christian Post - False dangerous doctrine of 'Once Saved Always Saved'

Hebrews 3:12-14 "Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. 13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end."

Today we consider the issue of salvation and continuance, or in other words: "Are we once saved always saved?"

According to the scriptures, this is not a reasonable exegesis based on key scriptures like John 15, Hebrews 3:12-14, Revelation 3, and many others.

The simple theme of John 15 is that of continuance, or "abiding" in Christ. To abide means to remain. Jesus urges us to "remain in me." And then he says in response "then I will remain in you." It's a fairly simple formula, we receive Jesus Christ as savior, through faith, and then we must continue in the faith, remaining and walking with Jesus throughout our whole lives, overcoming sin, living in victory, and living out holiness in all we do. This is the teaching of the new testament.

Now it is certainly true that God "preserves" us in a state of salvation. He is our shepherd, we're the flock. Nothing can pluck us from His hand! That is certainly truth. Nothing can pull us out, not sadness, not grief, not death, not angels or demons, not Satan himself, but if we go on in sin and unbelief, we can step out of His hand. Falling away is a well documented reality of the scriptures. We should remember that.

I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. 9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full. -John 15:1-11

originally posted by: Saloon
Also if you read all of my post then you would understand that once
saved always saved does certainly apply no matter your arguement.
It is to the saved Christian who doesn't fall away. But lives the rest of
life trying to obey Jesus at his word.

That doesn't make sense. Then there is no 'once saved always saved'
because you have to stay in Gods Grace to be saved and those who
are saved and fall away 'once saved always saved' doesn't apply to
them ..... so there is no 'once saved always saved'.

Your statement makes no sense.

originally posted by: Saloon
a reply to: NoCorruptionAllowed

True, absolutely true. "I'm saved so now I can do whatever I want and get away with it". Human ego is a tricky thing and fools a lot of people. It fooled me once as well.

No this is not true and in fact it's really ignorant.

Staying in full repentance is the only way I know that shows a commitment to honoring the gift from God that has been given.

So you're living a completely sinless life now? What is repentence if it isn't obedience?

What the hell are you talking about? What I was saying is true was what Flyersfan said. You can be saved and then fall. Very simple. You think that is ignorant?

Your comment is hilarious and a great example of that "Ego" I mentioned. Yours appears quite bloated and proud. See how far that takes you on the other side.

a reply to: FlyersFan

How many times did you have to get saved today?

1 John 1:7. “But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.”

Not trying to be a jerk here but notice the word ALL in the passage you quoted.
When God says all that means all everytime. That means the ones we are going
to commit as believers in Christ.

Hebrews 3:12. Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God.”

Again God knows the heart of every man. So it's impossible to get away with
such a childish crap attitude saying I'm saved I'm saved I can do what I want
get away with it. How is that getting away with anything when you're fooling
no one but yourself?

I mean how is that even being saved?

a reply to: randomuser

Verses that speak of the dead sleeping use phenomenological language. For example, Daniel 12:2 states, “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” This image is of people getting up much as a sleeper rises in the morning. The sleep being discussed is phenomenological sleep, not literal sleep (Daniel is not talking about living people who sleep on the ground). Because dead people look like they are sleeping, especially when lying on their deathbeds (and notice that people often die on beds, enhancing the sleep analogy), the Bible often uses “sleep” as a euphemism for “death.” In fact, this euphemism is common today.

In Revelation 6:9-10, John writes, “When he [Christ] opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, ‘O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?'”

Here John sees the disembodied souls of early Christian martyrs. The fact they are disembodied is known because they have been slain. Thus disembodied souls exist. The fact they are conscious is known because they cry out to God for vengeance. Unconscious people can’t do that. Thus conscious, disembodied souls exist.

In Revelation 20:4 John sees these souls again: “Then I saw . . . the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God and who had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

Here again we have disembodied souls (they had been beheaded). John sees them coming to life to reign with Christ–hence they are in a pre-resurrection state. Some scholars argue that this is a spiritual resurrection rather than a physical one. Even if that were so, it would only strengthen the case for conscious, disembodied souls because, after having been beheaded, they would be reigning with Christ in heaven in a disembodied state.

SOURCE

The Bible speaks of death as sleep because the body looks as if it’s asleep when we die, not because the soul becomes unconscious

Acts 7:59-60, Stephen, before “falling asleep” in death, cries out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” That this doesn’t support “soul sleep” is clear from Jesus’ similar remark on the cross (Lk 23:46), which didn’t preclude his telling the Good Thief who died with him, “Today you will be with me in paradise” (Lk 23:43).

The Bible doesn’t teach the concept of “soul sleep.” Jesus’ parable of Lazarus and the rich man, for example, demonstrates that after death both the righteous and the unrighteous are aware of their fates (Lk 16:19-31).

The apostle Paul also teaches conscious existence after death. He speaks of his desire to depart this life and to go on to be with Christ (Phil 1:23). In 2 Corinthians 12:3-4, Paul tells of his being caught up to paradise and of his uncertainty whether this occurred “in the body or out of the body”–certainly an odd way of speaking if he didn’t believe in an immaterial soul or if he believed in “soul sleep.”

SOURCE

Other passages that allude to awake souls after death -

“Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother and led them up a high mountain by themselves. And he was transfigured before them; his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light. And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, conversing with him. Then Peter said to Jesus in reply, ‘Lord, it is good that we are here. If you wish, I will make three tents here, one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.’ ” (Matt. 17:1-5).

“As for the dead being raised, have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God told him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, [the] God of Isaac, and [the] God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living. You are greatly misled” (Mark 12:26-27).

“I tell you, in just the same way there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous people who have no need of repentance” (Luke 15:7).

“When the poor man died, he was carried away by the angels to the bosom of Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried. . . and he raised his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me. Send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am suffering torment in these flames” (Luke 16:19-20, 22-24)

MORE phenomenological language, explained above. Jesus described the daughter of Jairus, who had died: “Do not weep, for she is not dead, but sleeping” (Lk 8:52). Jesus then “prayed” both to the dead (by addressing a dead person) and for the dead (by commanding a dead person to return to earthly life), because He was talking to a dead child, and saying, “Child arise” (Lk 8:54). The next verse states “and her spirit returned,” thus proving that it was separate from her body. NOT 'sleeping in the grave'.

1 KINGS 17:21-22 "Then he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried to the Lord, “O Lord my God, let this child’s soul come into him again.” And the Lord hearkened to the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived." Showing the soul went elsewhere (Sheol) and wasn't 'sleeping in the grave'.

There is a judgement immediately upon death -

Luke 16:22-23 -The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; [23] and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz'arus in his bosom.

Hebrews 9:27: “it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment.”

2 Corinthians 5:8 8 - We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Phil 1:23 - I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. NLT I'm torn between two desires: I long to go and be with Christ, which would be far better for me.

Then there is the final judgement when the soul reunites with the body (I already showed the soul separates from the body at death) upon the return of Christ.

originally posted by: Saloon
How many times did you have to get saved today?

Every time you sin, you turn away from God, you are in danger of hell.
Every time you repent and ask forgiveness, you are saved.
I gave the passages showing 'saved' people can indeed fall away.
And it's 'death to the soul' when they do.
They must be saved again. It's called repentance.

As true as the day is long.

There is only memories, hopes and the ever present urgency of now.

Hell is the absence of God. Heaven is the uplifting presence of the ancient of days.

a reply to: Itisnowagain