Going to Heaven

Greets on this fine day fellow ATSers. I hope this post finds you in peace. It came to my mind to expound a little on the teaching in the Bible of heaven and going to heaven.

In the Bible the heaven can have several connotations. It can me the sky. It can mean the universe beyond our sky, and it can mean the invisible spirit realm where God and his holy angels reside. Where exactly that place is we have no way of knowing, but we know it is not in the physical realm in which we reside. As God is not confined to the physical realm or the 4 fundamental laws of the universe which he established to govern our physical universe where we reside.

In the Hebrew scriptures there is no mention of a hope of humans going to heaven*. There is one mention of Elijah being swept up in a chariot of fire into the heaven, but that was in the vicinity of the earth, or the sky where planes fly (2 Kings 2:11). He was reported later on still alive on earth prophesying. (2 Chronicles 21:1; 12-15.)

No Jew alive before Jesus came to earth had the expectation of going to heaven. The thought never entered their mind. There is no scriptural reference to such a thing revealed to them.

Paul spoke of "sacred secrets" or "myseteries" that were not revealed until Jesus came to earth. Concerning the fact that Jesus' apostles were going to heaven they did not discern while he walked on earth with them. Let us see how they thought.

The Jews were under Roman rule. When Jesus came to earth many assumed that he would become king of the Jews while on earth and free the Jews from Roman oppression. A crowd on one occasion planned to seize Jesus and make him king. Jesus knowing this withdrew so they could not do that. The apostles were spiritual infants as far as the sacred secrets hidden in Jesus were concerned. They did not understand Jesus came to earth to die as a ransom sacrifice for everyone exercising faith in him.

Jesus told his apostles that while he was with them he had many things to reveal to them, but it was too much for them to bear all at once. So he did not explain everything to them.

“I still have many things to say to you, but you are not able to bear them now."-John 16:12.

One of these things was his death. But as the time for him to die was drawing close he tried to prepare them for the fact that he was going to die. Peter told Jesus he would not have that fate at all. Jesus rebuked Peter:

"From that time forward, Jesus began explaining to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes and be killed, and on the third day be raised up. 22 At this Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying: “Be kind to yourself, Lord; you will not have this happen to you at all.” 23 But turning his back, he said to Peter: “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me, because you think, not God’s thoughts, but those of men.”"-Matthew 16:21-23.


Another sacred secret that Jesus was to reveal to his apostles was that they were to rule with him in his kingdom government in heaven, not on earth.

"Simon Peter said to him: “Lord, where are you going?” Jesus answered: “Where I am going, you cannot follow me now, but you will follow later.” Peter said to him: “Lord, why is it I cannot follow you now?"-John 13:36-37.

Please put yourself in Peter's shoes discerning reader. This perhaps may open your eyes to understanding. What was Jesus talking about when he said where he is going his apostles could not follow? Yes, he was talking about returning to heaven, the spirit realm. Did the apostles understand Jesus was going to return there? NO, they did not. Look at Peter's bewilderment. He asks Jesus, "Lord, where are you going?" And then he asked, "Lord, why is it I cannot follow you now?" When Jesus said that they would follow him later. Peter and the apostles had no idea they were going to go to heaven. If they understood that Peter would not have been asking these questions in perplexity like he was. And Jesus did not explain it to them then.

In fact AFTER Jesus was resurrected they still were assuming that Jesus was going to become king while on earth. That is why they asked him, after he was raised from the dead:

"So when they had assembled, they asked him: 'Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?'"-Acts 1:6.

The apostles still did not grasp that Jesus was NOT going to become king over earthly Israel during their time. No where in scripture was the hope of going to heaven ever talked about up to that time. So imagine, just imagine as Jesus' disciples, 500 of them, were gathered and they watched Jesus fly into the sky and disappear into heaven! Perhaps they did not understand it immediately, but as they pondered over these things, they must have come to the realization that Jesus had returned to the spirit realm to his Father, Jehovah's side. And that they too would eventually follow Jesus into heaven!

In fact that scripture above where Jesus said that he had many things to tell them but they were not ready for them. The very next thing he said was this:

"However, when that one comes, the spirit of the truth, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own initiative, but what he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things to come."-John 16:13.

Jesus promised that after he had returned to heaven, then he would send God's holy spirit, and it would reveal these things to them. And what revelations were being made to the infant Christian congregation! These were sacred secrets hidden for long lasting times being revealed in Jesus Christ! Paul wrote:

"Now to Him who can make you firm according to the good news I declare and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the sacred secret that has been kept in silence for long-lasting times but has now been made manifest."-Romans 16:25-26.

Talking of this sacred secret Paul referred to the "full number" or the complete number of those who would go to heaven to rule with Jesus:

"For I do not want you to be unaware of this sacred secret, brothers, so that you do not become wise in your own eyes: A partial dulling of senses has come upon Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in."-Romans 11:25.

That number is 144,000. For a complete grasp on this "full number" see: this thread.

Now Paul, after listing a long line of faithful men and women in Hebrews chapter 11 that served Jehovah faithfully, referring to all those who had died beforehand, said that NONE of them received the fulfillment of the promise. And that none of them would be made perfect apart from us, that is the anointed Christian congregation of 144,000 who will go to heaven to rule with Christ:

"And yet all of these, although they received a favorable witness because of their faith, did not obtain the fulfillment of the promise, because God had foreseen something better for us, so that they might not be made perfect apart from us."-Hebrews 11:39-40.

This will only happen at the revelation of the "sons of God." Please see this thread that goes into some detail about the revealing of this sacred secret of mystery of God revealed in Jesus Christ.

The Bible does not teach that all good people go to heaven. Jesus said that NO ONE had gone to heaven, except for the one who descended from heaven, referring to himself:

"Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man."-John 3:13.

And later on Paul wrote that all the holy ones that are to go to heaven to rule with Christ are asleep in death awaiting his return, and then at that time will be resurrected to heavenly spirit life:

" Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who are sleeping in death, so that you may not sorrow as the rest do who have no hope. For if we have faith that Jesus died and rose again, so too God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus."-1 Thessalonians 4:13-14.

They are asleep in death until Jesus returns and then he calls his adopted brothers and sisters to heavenly spirit life. This happens after the great tribulation and before Armageddon. When the revealing of the sons of God will happen.

And it will be by means of Jesus' kingdom rule in heaven over the earth with these 144,000 called to heaven to rule with him, that the earth will be perfected, and all the untold billions in Jehovah's memory will be resurrected to a paradise on earth with perfection of life. (Revelation 21:3-4; Psalm 37:10, 29.)

The Biblical hope is that only the anointed Christian congregation of 144,000 go to heaven. I will turn off the fire-hose of Biblical truth now.

a reply to: randomuser

"Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man."-John 3:13.

You fell out of heaven when you started believing in other than what there really is.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: randomuser

You fell out of heaven when you started believing in other than what there really is.

Jesus told "doubting" Thomas, who saw Jesus reveal to him the holes in his hands after he had been resurrected and Thomas then believed:

Jesus said to him: “Because you have seen me, have you believed? Happy are those who have not seen and yet believe.”-John 20:29.

The truth is in God's word the Bible. Jehovah is the author of the Bible. And as he lives in the spirit realm, he knows things of that realm we have no clue. We can have confidence that what He reveals to us in the Bible about it is trustworthy and true.

Jews have Sheol. Christians have Heaven. And no, people aren't asleep in the grave. Jesus told the good thief on the cross 'today you shall be with me in paradise'. So there is an immediate deciding on Heaven or Hell or Purgatory upon death. (yes purgatory the temporary place before Heaven, but that's for another discussion) I've seen the quote on 'asleep in Christ' but Christ's direct words from the cross show otherwise.

a reply to: randomuser

Heaven isn't somewhere or somewhen else.

It's here and now .......the living God is alive.

But the belief in you and time produces stories about something somewhere.
But you can only ever see now....you are now.
Life is now.

According to the Revelations, the dead shall be raised at the exact moment the last trumpet sounds. It is then that they shall be 'transformed' and either be allowed into heaven or not.

Everyone is judged on Judgment Day. When the dead are raised.

Anyways, if there is a heaven I have no hopes of getting in, according to Jesus. I live in the US, I own a house, I own multiple cars and have TVs in every room. By planet Earth's standards, I am rich. I am more rich than most people on this planet.

And Jesus said: "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."

I'm screwed.

originally posted by: FlyersFan
Jews have Sheol. Christians have Heaven. And no, people aren't asleep in the grave. Jesus told the good thief on the cross 'today you shall be with me in paradise'. So there is an immediate deciding on Heaven or Hell or Purgatory upon death. (yes purgatory the temporary place before Heaven, but that's for another discussion) I've seen the quote on 'asleep in Christ' but Christ's direct words from the cross show otherwise.

Jesus told the apostles concerning the death of Lazarus his friend:

"After he said these things, he added: “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazʹa·rus has died."-John 11:11-14.

So Jesus said that he was sleeping in death.

And in two scriptures quoted in the OP that are bolded Jesus said that no one has ascended into heaven. And Paul said that the holy ones were sleeping in death. So you really are not contradicting anything anyone on earth said when you say 'no the dead are not asleep.' You are contradicting Jesus Christ, and God's word the Bible.

When Jesus told the sinner he would be with him in paradise that was obviously referring to the future kingdom rule over the earth. Jesus wasn't in paradise when he died. The Bible says that he descended into Sheol for parts of 3 days and then was resurrected from the dead. A simple coma fixes that error:

"Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.”-Luke 23:43.

originally posted by: Mahogany
According to the Revelations, the dead shall be raised at the exact moment the last trumpet sounds. It is then that they shall be 'transformed' and either be allowed into heaven or not.

Everyone is judged on Judgment Day. When the dead are raised.

Anyways, if there is a heaven I have no hopes of getting in, according to Jesus. I live in the US, I own a house, I own multiple cars and have TVs in every room. By planet Earth's standards, I am rich. I am more rich than most people on this planet.

And Jesus said: "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."

I'm screwed.

True, they will be raised during the last trumpet! They are asleep until then. In fact that was in the very same scripture where Paul told us that the holy ones are sleeping in death that I quoted in the OP. After he says that the holy ones are sleeping in death awaiting Jesus return he then said:

13 Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who are sleeping in death, so that you may not sorrow as the rest do who have no hope. 14 For if we have faith that Jesus died and rose again, so too God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus. 15 For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. 18 So keep comforting one another with these words."-1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

You remember very well. You have a humble spirit in your demeanor about being saved. And that shows that you have hope. I don't doubt it one bit you have hope. The Bible promises a time when all meek and righteous people will live forever on earth:

"The righteous will possess the earth, And they will live forever on it."-Psalm 37:29.

a reply to: randomuser

The Bible does not teach that all good people go to heaven. Jesus said that NO ONE had gone to heaven, except for the one who descended from heaven, referring to himself:

"Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man."-John 3:13.

He wasn't referring to himself.......

In Judaism, "son of man" denotes mankind generally, in contrast to deity or godhead

originally posted by: randomuser
' You are contradicting Jesus Christ, and God's word the Bible..

Nope.
Jesus told the good thief TODAY you will be with me in paradise.
That's immediate.
You can say the bible contradicts itself, or you can say Jesus said Lazarus 'fell asleep'
instead of died because Jesus knew He was going to raise him up.
But there is no getting around Christ's words from the cross .... TODAY you will be
with me in paradise. That's not a future time.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: randomuser

The Bible does not teach that all good people go to heaven. Jesus said that NO ONE had gone to heaven, except for the one who descended from heaven, referring to himself:

"Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man."-John 3:13.

In Judaism, "son of man" denotes mankind generally, in contrast to deity or godhead

Even the Hebrew scriptures referring to the coronation of Jesus Christ in heaven refers to him as the "son of man:"

“I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed."-Daniel 7:13-14.

This coronation ceremony took place in 1914 C. E.

a reply to: randomuser

Heaven is a place outside of our time construct.

Our names were written in the Lambs Book of Life before the foundation of the world.

I believe it’s impossible to determine what happens when in Heaven.

a reply to: NorthOfStuffx2

Yes outside of our time construct.

You are outside of the time construct.....time appears now, always now.....

a reply to: Mahogany

Just accept Jesus as your Savior and repent of all sins (with genuine meaning) and you have an automatic get into Heaven card.

This verse means that rich people were putting their faith in earthly security, money and power. That will not get them into Heaven. That is all it meant. It also was at a time when they were waiting for Jesus, most not accepting Jesus when he was amongst them as they had a different idea of who Jesus would be, and so they only had the mindset of achieving money security and nothing more.

Here is a link that will help: www.neverthirsty.org...

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: randomuser
' You are contradicting Jesus Christ, and God's word the Bible..

Nope.
Jesus told the good thief TODAY you will be with me in paradise.
That's immediate.
You can say the bible contradicts itself, or you can say Jesus said Lazarus 'fell asleep'
instead of died because Jesus knew He was going to raise him up.
But there is no getting around Christ's words from the cross .... TODAY you will be
with me in paradise. That's not a future time.

Jesus didn't go to paradise the day he died. Acts 2:27 according to the KJV has Jesus in "Hell" or Hades, the Greek equivolaent of Sheol. He was in the grave for 3 days. When Jesus died for our sins he was dead. Awaiting a resurrection on the third day. Death, like you said is likened to sleep, because God has power over death, and so does Jesus.

Jesus quite plainly said that no one has gone to heaven:

"Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man."-John 3:13.

And Paul said that "holy ones" are sleeping in death:

"Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who are sleeping in death, so that you may not sorrow as the rest do who have no hope."-1 Thessalonians 4:13.

a reply to: randomuser

No one goes to heaven.

The person you believe and imagine yourself to be is just an idea, a mental construct.
There is just the one life......

It's ever present.

Exodus 33:20. ESV - 20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live."

The illusion of you being separate will end......so essentially that will set 'you' free.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: randomuser

No one goes to heaven.

The person you believe and imagine yourself to be is just an idea, a mental construct.
There is just the one life......

It's ever present.

Exodus 33:20. ESV - 20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live."

Without a doubt no human can go to heaven. Just as a human cannot go to outer space and survive. The Bible says "flesh and blood" cannot inherit the kingdom:

"But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption."-1 Corinthians 15:50.

It then goes on to say those who go to heaven will be resurrected in immortal spirit bodies with divine nature like that of Jehovah God and Jesus Christ:

"Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed. 53 For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality."-1 Corinthians 15:51-53.

"We do know that when he is made manifest we will be like him, because we will see him just as he is. -1 John 3:2.

a reply to: randomuser

The 144000 is not a biblical teaching and the verse needs to be taken into context the same way you attempted to do with the verse about the thief on the cross.

Revelation 7:9 KKV:

“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;“

Enough people to fill 12 acres is hardly uncountable.

originally posted by: NorthOfStuffx2
a reply to: randomuser

The 144000 is not a biblical teaching and the verse needs to be taken into context the same way you attempted to do with the verse about the thief on the cross.

Revelation 7:9 KKV:

“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;“

Enough people to fill 12 acres is hardly uncountable.

The great multitude that cannot be numbered was seen after the 144,000. These are the ones that survive the great tribulation and Armageddon on earth. At that time the 144,000 are already in heaven. But I have written another thread that goes into detail about it. Please see: Who Are the 144,000.