Going to Heaven

originally posted by: TTU77
a reply to: randomuser

I haven't put much thought into the 144,000.

Can you compare and contrast the relationship of the saints - general saved people, vs that of the 144,000?

Both are of course saved.

The 144,000 Are Jews, exclusively.

Are you asserting that no saints will be in heaven, or near God, only the 144,000?

Only they have access to his light here on the Earth in New Jerusalem?

I hope you are not asserting there will only be 144,000 saved people, I trust not - forgive, I haven't read all the posts yet.

The "saints" or "holy ones" are the 144,000.

In Daniel chapter seven Daniel is given the vision of when Jesus Christ, the "son of man" gains access to the "Ancient of Days" Jehovah God, and is crowned king of God's kingdom in heaven, so that all the nations of the earth should serve him. But along with the coronation ceremony of Jesus Christ, the holy ones, or saints, also receive the kingdom with Jesus:

“I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One. And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed."-Daniel 7:13-14.

"And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him."-Daniel 7:27.

originally posted by: randomuser

originally posted by: TTU77
a reply to: randomuser

I haven't put much thought into the 144,000.

Can you compare and contrast the relationship of the saints - general saved people, vs that of the 144,000?

Both are of course saved.

The 144,000 Are Jews, exclusively.

Are you asserting that no saints will be in heaven, or near God, only the 144,000?

Only they have access to his light here on the Earth in New Jerusalem?

I hope you are not asserting there will only be 144,000 saved people, I trust not - forgive, I haven't read all the posts yet.

The "saints" or "holy ones" are the 144,000.

In Daniel chapter seven Daniel is given the vision of when Jesus Christ, the "son of man" gains access to the "Ancient of Days" Jehovah God, and is crowned king of God's kingdom in heaven, so that all the nations of the earth should serve him. But along with the coronation ceremony of Jesus Christ, the holy ones, or saints, also receive the kingdom with Jesus:

“I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One. And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed."-Daniel 7:13-14.

"And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him."-Daniel 7:27.

saints do not equate to the 144,000.

The sealing of the 144,000 takes place after the Tribulation and prior to the wrath of God. As the following chapter explains, the four angels that are poised to bring punishment to the earth from God are told not to harm the earth until this group of people has been sealed (Revelation 7:1-3).

These passages show that the 144,000 will be people who survive the Great Tribulation. They are not faithful saints who have lived and died throughout the previous ages.

The 144,000 are all Jewish virgins, 12K from each of the 12 tribes.

You do not need to be a virgin to be a saint?

Are you a Jehova's witness by chance?

Can you answer with a yes or no, do you only believe the 144,000 refer only the the number of saved people from the earth from all time?

Is salvation limited to only the 144,000?
Revelation 7 identifies the 144,000 as being 12,000 from each tribe of Israel with the exception of the tribe of Dan. Two significant points to note here include the fact that the descendants of the ancient nation of Israel are still important to God and that salvation is not limited to this group.

In addition to the 144,000, another innumerable multitude will likewise stand before God in “white robes” (Revelation 7:9, 13), symbolizing righteous living (Revelation 3:4-5).

This great multitude will include people from “all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues [languages]” (Revelation 7:9). As they stand before the Lamb (Christ), a question is asked about who these people are and where they came from.

The answer is: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb” (verse 14). Because of their response to God, they will serve “before the throne of God” (verse 15).

More info

lifehopeandtruth.com...

This is just one source mind you.

Some people think the 144,000 were the children Herod killed when Jesus was born. They would fit the narrative, Jews, who never had guile in the their mouths since they were toddlers/infants, and not been defiled by woman.

Threre are some different viewpoints.

There are saints, likely millions of saved people.

There are 144,000 that are sealed at the tribulation, before the wraith of God. This points to the fact, there are likely those who are coming out of the tributlation from Israle, Jews nonetheless.

They may, or may not have a special annointing - I've heard this before.

I'm not sure what position they would be in compared to "regular" saints/ gentile or not.




It seems you are a Jehova's witness. I found this quote from got questions.org

Much of the confusion regarding the 144,000 is a result of the false doctrine of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. The Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that 144,000 is a limit to the number of people who will reign with Christ in heaven and spend eternity with God. The 144,000 have what the Jehovah’s Witnesses call the “heavenly hope.” Those who are not among the 144,000 will enjoy what they call the “earthly hope”—a paradise on earth ruled by Christ and the 144,000. It is true that there will be people ruling in the millennium with Christ. These people will be comprised of the church (believers in Jesus Christ, 1 Corinthians 6:2), Old Testament saints (believers who died before Christ’s first advent, Daniel 7:27), and tribulation saints (those who accept Christ during the tribulation, Revelation 20:4). Yet the Bible places no numerical limit on this group of people. Furthermore, the millennium is different from the eternal state, which will be established at the completion of the millennial period. At that time, God will dwell with us in the New Jerusalem. He will be our God, and we will be His people (Revelation 21:3). The inheritance promised to us in Christ and sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13–14) will become ours, and we will be co-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17).

www.gotquestions.org...

I have to fervently and adamantly oppose such a believe.

More info on Jehova's witnesses

a reply to: TTU77

Greetings. I am writing a reply to you about the 144,000. So give me a few minutes. You can also see the thread I did on them awhile ago here: Who Are the 144,000.

I am curious if you are not aware the Jehovah's Witnesses have a website at JW.ORG. You can actually look there for their beliefs, no need to post a video from YouTube from someone who is not one:

What Do Jehovah's Witnesses Believe

a reply to: TTU77

Greetings TTU77. It is good to converse with you again. I realize that many are confused about the 144,000 being literal Jews. But a little digging into scripture reveals that they are actually spiritual Jews, the anointed Christian congregation. I did a good thread on it awhile ago here: Who Are the 144,000. I please ask you to take the time to study it.

But I will give you some points here for you to think about as well.

The 144,000 are indeed faithful and without spot and blemish from the world. They are the anointed Christian congregation, the Israel of God, spiritual Israelites, and come out of all the nations and tribes and language groups of the earth.

If you look at the thread I did awhile ago you will notice that I pointed out there is a difference in the tribal listing between the ancient nation of Israel, and the spiritual Israel listed at Revelation 7. The tribe of Levi was not a part of the 12 tribes that received a land inheritance. And Joseph was also not listed among the 12, because he received a double portion and his two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh became tribes in his stead.

The anointed Christian congregation is the Israel of God. She is a chaste virgin promised in marriage to Jesus Christ. Speaking to the the saints, the anointed Christian congregation Paul stated:

"For I am jealous over you with a godly jealousy, for I personally promised you in marriage to one husband that I might present you as a chaste virgin to the Christ."-2 Corinthians 11:2.

The anointed Christian congregation is thus a chaste virgin. The 144,000 are virgins in the fact that they do not meddle in the politics and the wars of the world. They remain neutral. They are as Jesus said "no part of the world." They have received the token, the sealing of holy spirit, and crowns in heaven are reserved for them:

"To an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for you"-1 Peter 1:4.

They are subjects of God's kingdom in heaven, and realize that Jesus' kingdom government is the only solution to humankind's problems. Instead of getting in bed with the world rulers and partake in wars of this world, they are busy proclaiming God's kingdom as good news to all the inhabited earth, and then the end will come according to Matthew 24:14.

That the 144,000 are indeed the saints who will reign in heaven there is no doubt. Look at Revelation 14 carefully.

"Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads."-Revelation 14:1.

They are standing on Mount Zion. Some may think this is the temple mount in the Middle East. But that is not the case. Notice they are standing with the Lamb, Jesus Christ, and he is in heaven.

"But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all, and the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect."-Hebrews 12:22-23.

Here we see that Mount Zion is the city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem. She is in heaven, where the congregation of the firstborn, that is the 144,000, have been enrolled in the heavens.

To be sure these are the ones that will receive thrones in heaven look closer at Revelation 14:1. It says they have the name of the Lamb (Jesus Christ) and of the Father (Jehovah God) on their forehead. If you look a little further in Revelation you will see these ones have received the kingdom and rule as kings:

"And there will no longer be any curse. But the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his slaves will offer him sacred service;  and they will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. Also, night will be no more, and they have no need of lamplight or sunlight, for Jehovah God will shed light upon them, and they will rule as kings forever and ever."

That the 144,000 encompass people starting from Pentecost of 33 C. E. up until the Great Tribulation when the final are sealed is quite obvious from scripture as well. Paul tells us that those called to rule in heaven in the first century were to fall asleep in death, and it wouldn't be until Jesus' kingdom presence that they would be resurrected. Now notice, please read the following passage and watch the order of things as they are taking place:

"Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who are sleeping in death, so that you may not sorrow as the rest do who have no hope. For if we have faith that Jesus died and rose again, so too God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus. For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. So keep comforting one another with these words."-1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

We are told that those in the first century who had already died who had been anointed with holy spirit, who make up the congregation of God in the heavens, the called and chosen and faithful, the anointed Christian congregation, the 144,000 were sleeping in death waiting Jesus' return.

Now after the great tribulation Jesus foretold in Matthew 24 he said he would descend and the sign of the son of man would appear in heaven and he would gather his chosen ones from the four corners of the earth. So this is after the great tribulation and before Armageddon. At that time Jesus will descend, with the archangel's voice and the trumpet of God, and those who have already been lying asleep in death will rise first, and then afterward, we the living, those who are remaining of the 144,000 will together with them be swept away into the clouds in the air, and thus we will all be with Jesus forever.

So the 144,000 make up the complete anointed Christian congregation. It began when Jesus poured out holy spirit upon the 120 disciples at Pentecost 33 C. E. And the full number will receive a final sealing before the outbreak of the great tribulation. They are not literal virgin Jews. They are spiritual Israel, virgins in that they do not partake in the wars and politics of this world.

When you really examine scripture, with prayer, and careful observation, this Biblical truth becomes plain and clear.

The "full number" are the 144,000:

"Now if their false step means riches to the world and their decrease means riches to people of the nations, how much more will their full number mean!"-Romans 11:12.
...

a reply to: TTU77


A continuation from the previous post.

These are adopted spirit sons of God, and brothers of Jesus Christ. That is why scripture says that the anointed Christian congregation, the 144,000 are to be patterned after the image of his son, so that Jesus Christ will be the firstborn among many brothers:

"Because those whom he gave his first recognition he also foreordained to be patterned after the image of his Son, so that he might be the firstborn among many brothers."-Romans 8:29.

These are the ones who partake of the first resurrection:

"For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.  But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence."-1 Corinthians 15:22-23.

Notice that Christ is the firstfruits. He is the first to be resurrected from the dead to heavenly life. In his kingdom presence, very soon when he returns with the angels, after the great tribulation, he will call those saints asleep in death and raise them to his side in heaven, and then we the living at that time, the remaining of the 144,000 will be swept away along with them. There are over 20,000 spirit-begotten sons of God among Jehovah's Witnesses today. These are the remaining of the 144,000 that are still alive.

"Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years."-Revelation 20:4-6.

They will partake of the first resurrection and reign in heaven with Jesus Christ over the earth for the 1,000 years. All others who are resurrected on earth will partake of the resurrection during the 1,000 year reign on earth. At that time there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.

a reply to: TTU77

If you want to hear God's work spoken out lout - Read the bible out loud.

This is why I can't believe in the bible. There is nothing that shows me that most of the bible isn't just rambelings written by ancient men when they still thought slavery and opression of women was cool.

There is nothing seperating islam, christianity, judiasm, hinduism ect.. beyond belief.

There is no reason for me to believe the bible is "god's word" or any other "holy" doctrine. Why should I just place my faith in something that I have no evidence is even real?
And no, the bible isn't evidence. It's only evidence for those who believe.

If God cared so much about people having faith in a particular religion, he'd give them reason to. But because he doesn't we have thousands of religions and nobody really has any idea of what the true religion is. If there is even one, which I don't think there is.

So the God of men is either made up to explain the unexplainable or if he's real; he's a cruel jokester that loves to torture human beings. In that case, I doubt it matters what one believes. God is just going to choose who want to let in by his own accord. After all, he knows everything, created everything, so he already decided to create people who by their very nature will be damned.

I'd have to have some spiritual revelation to believe in anything, otherwise its all hocus pocus nonsensical religious rambelings by old men who still thought to stone women to death for misbehaving.

a reply to: Turquosie

This is why I can't believe in the bible. There is nothing that shows me that most of the bible isn't just rambelings written by ancient men when they still thought slavery and opression of women was cool.

Some writers are better than others.

They didn't have continuity directors in those days.

I think its a between the lines window into history if you look at its composition chronologically.

For example, Most of Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiahs I and II, Hosea, and some psalms were written BEFORE The Pentateuch. Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers were written next, then Deuteronomy was revised to cap off The Torah. Then others like Chronicles, Ecclesiastices, and Job came later.

Several different periods too. Monarchic, Exilic, Post Exilic (Both Persion and Greek), Maccabean, and Roman just to get to the New Testament.

Something changes when the meet The Persians, out of nowhere comes Genesis. But there wasnt intellectual property and the Zoroastrian didnt sue.

With so many different contributors transcribing their own word of God, they did an admirable enough job revising it as they went.

For all the contradictions up until that point the New Testament is more consistent within itself. The different gospels are essentially the same story. It was written in a shorter time period, all within 60 years. Earliest seems to be Galatians, with Peter II the most recent.

But between the first songs and Psalms written and Peter II, a lot was written by many many people. That's like 1200 years of composition.

Omnipotent does not mean organized, I guess.

originally posted by: Turquosie
a reply to: TTU77

If you want to hear God's work spoken out lout - Read the bible out loud.

This is why I can't believe in the bible. There is nothing that shows me that most of the bible isn't just rambelings written by ancient men when they still thought slavery and opression of women was cool.

There is nothing seperating islam, christianity, judiasm, hinduism ect.. beyond belief.

There is no reason for me to believe the bible is "god's word" or any other "holy" doctrine. Why should I just place my faith in something that I have no evidence is even real?
And no, the bible isn't evidence. It's only evidence for those who believe.

If God cared so much about people having faith in a particular religion, he'd give them reason to. But because he doesn't we have thousands of religions and nobody really has any idea of what the true religion is. If there is even one, which I don't think there is.

So the God of men is either made up to explain the unexplainable or if he's real; he's a cruel jokester that loves to torture human beings. In that case, I doubt it matters what one believes. God is just going to choose who want to let in by his own accord. After all, he knows everything, created everything, so he already decided to create people who by their very nature will be damned.

I'd have to have some spiritual revelation to believe in anything, otherwise its all hocus pocus nonsensical religious rambelings by old men who still thought to stone women to death for misbehaving.

Have you not read a single post I wrote in this thread? I wrote 10 tens. In them, are likely answers to most of your seemingly logical concerns/question and various reasons of the hope I have in the bible and in Christ.

You have either not read them, or blinded.

If you have a specific question on something I wrote, I'll be glad to clarify, but atleast proof to me, I'm not talking in an echo chamber, constantly repeating myself.

1. I explained why Christianity is unlike any religion.
2. I gave many reasons to believe the bible - un deniable.
3. I explained the importance of faith - a bit.
4. He gave many reasons to believe.
5. Experience and knowledge you cannot trust - only the sure word of prophecy and God's word - purely belief in what is written only. This is perfect so no one's personal "religious" experience will cloud any one elses.

I'll be happy to talk more, atleast show me you are willing to read what I've already written. I've spent probably 3-4 hours writing quite lengthy posts and replies already - covering these "basics". I'm wiling to most deeper in the basics I've mentioned, but not restart at the beginning.

a reply to: randomuser

I'll attempt to reply when I have a bit more time.

Thanks for your lengthy reply, but honestly, quite adament on not affirming Jehova's witnesses.

You shall know teachers or doctrine by their fruit.

JW:

1. Have many false prophecies - claiming jesus came in secret in 1914 (My mind shuts off here - this is antibiblical - thus damnable heresy).
2. If you don't go door to door to preach - you are damned - this is a works gospel.


There are a dozen or so more reasons not to consider such, as in same category of Mormon, etc.

Like I said in my other post. I've been burned so often before with false spiritual doctrine.

If it's not in the bible, I simply can't believe it, and will try my hardest to flee from it - grace by with discernment from God.

The bible is the foundation - period, anything that contradicts the bible, a single word, points to another Jesus, and another Jesus does not save.

originally posted by: Degradation33
a reply to: Turquosie

This is why I can't believe in the bible. There is nothing that shows me that most of the bible isn't just rambelings written by ancient men when they still thought slavery and opression of women was cool.

Some writers are better than others.

They didn't have continuity directors in those days.

I think its a between the lines window into history if you look at its composition chronologically.

For example, Most of Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiahs I and II, Hosea, and some psalms were written BEFORE The Pentateuch. Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers were written next, then Deuteronomy was revised to cap off The Torah. Then others like Chronicles, Ecclesiastices, and Job came later.

Several different periods too. Monarchic, Exilic, Post Exilic (Both Persion and Greek), Maccabean, and Roman just to get to the New Testament.

Something changes when the meet The Persians, out of nowhere comes Genesis. But there wasnt intellectual property and the Zoroastrian didnt sue.

With so many different contributors transcribing their own word of God, they did an admirable enough job revising it as they went.

For all the contradictions up until that point the New Testament is more consistent within itself. The different gospels are essentially the same story. It was written in a shorter time period, all within 60 years. Earliest seems to be Galatians, with Peter II the most recent.

But between the first songs and Psalms written and Peter II, a lot was written by many many people. That's like 1200 years of composition.

Omnipotent does not mean organized, I guess.

You seem to have a lot of knowledge, thanks for giving me thoughts to think about, but I have no where to go from it. If you could live supporting links it would be helpful.

There is a lot of fuzz concering the history of the books - lots of different opinions.

Regardless of our mortal "judgement" on the organization of the bible, certainly, the scope and message is perfectly clear - all directed toward Christ and spaning 1500 years + across many prophets. That's outstanding more proof of His hand at work, how his work is clear cut, same message, across different people, divinely inspired, never so much as forced as in for instance Muslim.

A "demon" tortured muhammed until all his energy was spent then when exhausted started channeling the info - all through one person.

To me, through many different people, speaks to me way more of organization - precision because he was working through more people - and foremost - this is more "loving" - not interfering with free will - no matter how many people he used to speak through - His message was delivered, thus also testifying to his sovereignty. God got his Word across - all the knowledge we need to be saved and know his will on how to live and obey Him.

a reply to: TTU77

It's been a pleasure to discourse with you and I see your sincerity. What I suggest you do is actually go to the source to see if what is said is really the truth. Because I can tell you what you wrote is not truthful at all.

For example, no Jehovah's Witness has ever made a prophecy. And none has ever claimed to be inspired or infallible. You've been given bad information. We'll stick on the subject at hand about going to heaven.

And I agree with you the Bible is the ultimate authority. It is the word of God and inspired.

The bible is the foundation - period, anything that contradicts the bible, a single word, points to another Jesus, and another Jesus does not save.

100% agreed. You may find this startling or not, but Jehovah's Witnesses are in full agreement on this. In fact if you delve more into what they believe it is all 100% based on the Bible. They throw out doctrine and dogma. If it's not in the Bible it's not part of what they believe or teach.

As we get to know each other more and converse, and especially if you take the time to go to the source itself, such as JW.ORG you will discover this to the case. As has already been the case in our conversations here where I have only used scripture to explain the truth. If want you can actually look through some other of my threads where I touch on Bible topics. You will never see me giving my own opinion. Rather always proving by references in the Bible.

Remember in the first century Christianity was talked against everywhere. it were those who wanted the truth that went to the source to find out the truth:

"But we think it proper to hear from you what your thoughts are, for truly as regards this sect, we know that it is spoken against everywhere."-Acts 28:22.

If you are so inclined to learn what the Bible says regarding 1914 (not some supposed Jehovah's Witness prophecy, what utter nonsense) check out this thread:

Pieces of a Divine Puzzle Come Together - A Timeline Decoded

You can also watch this simple video on 1914 and see there is no false prophecy, just explaining fulfillment of Bible prophecy already written:
God's Kingdom Began Ruling in 1914

originally posted by: randomuser
a reply to: TTU77

It's been a pleasure to discourse with you and I see your sincerity. What I suggest you do is actually go to the source to see if what is said is really the truth. Because I can tell you what you wrote is not truthful at all.

For example, no Jehovah's Witness has ever made a prophecy. And none has ever claimed to be inspired or infallible. You've been given bad information. We'll stick on the subject at hand about going to heaven.

And I agree with you the Bible is the ultimate authority. It is the word of God and inspired.

The bible is the foundation - period, anything that contradicts the bible, a single word, points to another Jesus, and another Jesus does not save.

100% agreed. You may find this startling or not, but Jehovah's Witnesses are in full agreement on this. In fact if you delve more into what they believe it is all 100% based on the Bible. They throw out doctrine and dogma. If it's not in the Bible it's not part of what they believe or teach.

As we get to know each other more and converse, and especially if you take the time to go to the source itself, such as JW.ORG you will discover this to the case. As has already been the case in our conversations here where I have only used scripture to explain the truth. If want you can actually look through some other of my threads where I touch on Bible topics. You will never see me giving my own opinion. Rather always proving by references in the Bible.

Remember in the first century Christianity was talked against everywhere. it were those who wanted the truth that went to the source to find out the truth:

"But we think it proper to hear from you what your thoughts are, for truly as regards this sect, we know that it is spoken against everywhere."-Acts 28:22.

If you are so inclined to learn what the Bible says regarding 1914 (not some supposed Jehovah's Witness prophecy, what utter nonsense) check out this thread:

Pieces of a Divine Puzzle Come Together - A Timeline Decoded

You can also watch this simple video on 1914 and see there is no false prophecy, just explaining fulfillment of Bible prophecy already written:
God's Kingdom Began Ruling in 1914

The person who created Jehova's witness made that prophecy and it didn't happen. JW believe Christ came back and is here now, in secret, in the JW tower.

Please watch the first 5 minutes of the video I gave you - he also mentioned the JW website and claims all the info comes from there. Perhaps you might not be in the light of the what the full beliefs of the JW are. I invite you to take a look at the video. I'd be happy to paste a transcript of the first 5 minutes, if you prefer that.

The majority of the info I have on JW comes from that video, so feel free to address the points directly.

originally posted by: Degradation33
a reply to: Turquosie

This is why I can't believe in the bible. There is nothing that shows me that most of the bible isn't just rambelings written by ancient men when they still thought slavery and opression of women was cool.

Some writers are better than others.

They didn't have continuity directors in those days.

I think its a between the lines window into history if you look at its composition chronologically.

For example, Most of Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiahs I and II, Hosea, and some psalms were written BEFORE The Pentateuch. Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers were written next, then Deuteronomy was revised to cap off The Torah. Then others like Chronicles, Ecclesiastices, and Job came later.

Several different periods too. Monarchic, Exilic, Post Exilic (Both Persion and Greek), Maccabean, and Roman just to get to the New Testament.

Something changes when the meet The Persians, out of nowhere comes Genesis. But there wasnt intellectual property and the Zoroastrian didnt sue.

With so many different contributors transcribing their own word of God, they did an admirable enough job revising it as they went.

For all the contradictions up until that point the New Testament is more consistent within itself. The different gospels are essentially the same story. It was written in a shorter time period, all within 60 years. Earliest seems to be Galatians, with Peter II the most recent.

But between the first songs and Psalms written and Peter II, a lot was written by many many people. That's like 1200 years of composition.

Omnipotent does not mean organized, I guess.

I find the fact that the Bible is in harmony throughout, never contradicting itself, to be a sign of its being of divine authorship.

For example, in Genesis 3:15 a prophecy is made by God concerning the woman, the serpent, and their offspring, the offspring of the woman, and the offspring of the serpent. And you can see how the theme throughout the entire Bible interlaces to show how the progress of this enmity developed:

"And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He will crush your head, and you will strike him in the heel."-Genesis 3:15.

If you read the very last book of the Bible, especially chapter 12 it talks about the enmity between the serpent and the woman and their offspring. For example verse 12 reveals that the original serpent is really Satan the Devil. And the woman, just as the Devil, is from the spirit realm (not Eve as she may have, and others who just glance through scripture may presume):

"Then a great sign was seen in heaven: A woman was arrayed with the sun, and the moon was beneath her feet, and on her head was a crown of 12 stars, 2 and she was pregnant. And she was crying out in her pains and in her agony to give birth. 3 Another sign was seen in heaven. Look! A great fiery-colored dragon, with seven heads and ten horns and on its heads seven diadems; 4 and its tail drags a third of the stars of heaven, and it hurled them down to the earth. And the dragon kept standing before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she did give birth, it might devour her child."-Revelation 12:1-4.

This is one but of many examples where the message is the same. It is not of human origin.

Another I guess I'll take the time to share that pops into my mind right now is the prophecy in Daniel 12 concerning the times time and half a time. We know this is 1,260 days because of a prophecy in Revelation 12:

"And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God and where they would feed her for 1,260 days."-Revelation 12:6.

"But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is to be fed for a time and times and half a time away from the face of the serpent."-Revelation 12:14.

“It will be for an appointed time, appointed times, and half a time. As soon as the dashing to pieces of the power of the holy people comes to an end, all these things will come to their finish.”-Daniel 12:7.

That would also coincide with the 1,290, and the 1,335 days that are later mentioned:

“And from the time that the constant feature has been removed and the disgusting thing that causes desolation has been put in place, there will be 1,290 days. 12 “Happy is the one who keeps in expectation and who arrives at the 1,335 days!"-Daniel 12:11-12.

There was divine authority behind this cryptic prophecy. It took a prophecy given over 600 years later to decrypt it. This is no invention of mere human whim. But it was divine authorship clearly behind it.

a reply to: TTU77

You could start with Documentary_hypothesis.

I used to have a Bible Commentary that assumed the Hypothesis. I don't remember the name, probably out of print anyway.

In Wikipedia, each book of the Bible does have the latest scholarly research.
Bart D. Ehrman's books were pretty much popularly discussed on the forum about 10 years ago.

Biblical_criticism

originally posted by: TTU77

originally posted by: randomuser
a reply to: TTU77

It's been a pleasure to discourse with you and I see your sincerity. What I suggest you do is actually go to the source to see if what is said is really the truth. Because I can tell you what you wrote is not truthful at all.

For example, no Jehovah's Witness has ever made a prophecy. And none has ever claimed to be inspired or infallible. You've been given bad information. We'll stick on the subject at hand about going to heaven.

And I agree with you the Bible is the ultimate authority. It is the word of God and inspired.

The bible is the foundation - period, anything that contradicts the bible, a single word, points to another Jesus, and another Jesus does not save.

100% agreed. You may find this startling or not, but Jehovah's Witnesses are in full agreement on this. In fact if you delve more into what they believe it is all 100% based on the Bible. They throw out doctrine and dogma. If it's not in the Bible it's not part of what they believe or teach.

As we get to know each other more and converse, and especially if you take the time to go to the source itself, such as JW.ORG you will discover this to the case. As has already been the case in our conversations here where I have only used scripture to explain the truth. If want you can actually look through some other of my threads where I touch on Bible topics. You will never see me giving my own opinion. Rather always proving by references in the Bible.

Remember in the first century Christianity was talked against everywhere. it were those who wanted the truth that went to the source to find out the truth:

"But we think it proper to hear from you what your thoughts are, for truly as regards this sect, we know that it is spoken against everywhere."-Acts 28:22.

If you are so inclined to learn what the Bible says regarding 1914 (not some supposed Jehovah's Witness prophecy, what utter nonsense) check out this thread:

Pieces of a Divine Puzzle Come Together - A Timeline Decoded

You can also watch this simple video on 1914 and see there is no false prophecy, just explaining fulfillment of Bible prophecy already written:
God's Kingdom Began Ruling in 1914

The person who created Jehova's witness made that prophecy and it didn't happen. JW believe Christ came back and is here now, in secret, in the JW tower.

Please watch the first 5 minutes of the video I gave you - he also mentioned the JW website and claims all the info comes from there. Perhaps you might not be in the light of the what the full beliefs of the JW are. I invite you to take a look at the video. I'd be happy to paste a transcript of the first 5 minutes, if you prefer that.

The majority of the info I have on JW comes from that video, so feel free to address the points directly.

I shared this with someone else earlier on this website and I will share it with you. I've read all of Russell's works, including the Divine Plan of the Ages, and most of The Watchtowers from 1879 onward, and books in print. Charles Russell did not make a prophecy. That is NOT TRUE. He never claimed divine inspiration. Here is something:



Also of interest for you:

Proclaiming the Lord’s Return (1870-1914)

a reply to: randomuser

Heaven and Hell could Both be Simulations.....

The trouble that Jehovah's Witnesses have in terms of relating to actual lived out spiritual experience in the here & now via the charismatic gifts is a struggle borne out of the complete refusal of those responsible for the dogmatic axioms of that particular faith group to believe that the Holy Spirit is a force amidst modern humanity equal in the extent of His living & active power as the written Word of the revealed scriptures - the standards of authority, while not strictly the same when applied to the entirety of the Christian church worldwide, are most certainly carrying the potential, when the word of the prophet is measured & weighed by two or three other prophets, and those under the authority of an apostle where possible, to be of great importance to the church corporately, at least within the local fellowship as it applies to all churches within a given geographic area, or sub-grouping of Christians in any number of special interest groups.

So if I am a prophet who specialises in the gift of prophecy through the medium of revelatory dreams, and I report a very clear spiritual dream regarding certain aspects of higher realities such as the literal existence of a domain we could call 'the Everlasting', or Heaven as it has been conceptualised by the Protestant church since its inception - then if additional prophetic voices report similar experiences, and perhaps if then pastors & evangelists receive confirmations of the same general prophetic revelation, then that lived spiritual reality will carry the weight of two or more witnesses - mature & experienced witnesses with many wise counselors - then we can start to say that there is a great deal of circumstantial evidence, in revelatory terms, to suggest that there really is an everlasting realm of great beauty, joy & peace, a realm in which godly people can expect to enter when they are called home to be with the Lord. And these exact sorts of revelations have been reported person to person, in written books & more recently online, by millions of Christians - and non-Christians - throughout the world over at least the past two thousand years, in the context of the time Christianity has existed.

Trying to base our beliefs as members of the church of New Testament Christianity, on the beliefs of the very people (first century Jewish religious leaders) who crucified Christ, is absolutely absurd. Modern & faithful New Testament Christianity draws from Old Testament wisdom, but the emphasis is on the revealed message of Jesus Christ as the Saviour - the living Word from whom the Old Testament material ultimately derives. But after we are introduced to Jesus by the Apostles in the New Testament, we are immediately introduced as believers to the third member of the triune metaphysical personage of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit of God. We are instructed to pay heed to Him, because He will "lead [us] into all truth". He is not static Word on the Bible's pages, which of course hold the highest esteem possible to us as Christians - but certainly on the local level, and at ascending turns on the hierarchical spiral up to the most formal expressions of Protestant Christianity in the world today - WHERE IT IS BEING PRACTICED FAITHFULLY - persons with sufficient authority within that church hierarchy can be expected to attain a level of authoritative truth from Holy Spirit revelation equal to that of the revelation in the eternal written Word, because the Holy Spirit is co-equal with the Father & the Son, and so His properly identified ministrations are of equally authoritative substance.

Pay close attention: We as Christians were told to pay no mind to Jewish conceptions of the spiritual realities of the universe before Christ came, very explicitly, except in as much as the words of the law, the prophets, the proverbial texts & the psalms all carry the same Spirit of Christ in each iota of their substance, in a mystic & true manner, and yet this is so with the knowledge that we are not to depend on them for the fully revealed true path of religion after the coming of Christ & the fulfilment of His earthly ministry - because He Himself stated that a key part of the function of the offices bestowed by proper application of the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit includes direct revelation through the office of the prophet. By implication, therefore, there are elements of the charismatic New Testament Christian religious path that are not available in the reading of the Word itself alone, and they require guidance from the Holy Spirit, who was only introduced to the people after Christ had fulfilled His earthly ministry. The Jewish conception of up, down, left & right is of no consequence to the Christian believer who follows the Lord & not the customs of the people who literally had Jesus murdered at the time when He was preaching a message of salvation to all the peoples of the world.. No, we are not to pay attention to the thoughts & conceptions of first century Jewish people regarding the potential existence or otherwise of an afterlife - we should be looking at the insights & revelations that thousands upon thousands of faithful New Testament-centric Christians have portrayed in their writings over the past two thousand years, as well as the revealed prophetic insight that we ourselves may be fortunate to receive in the watches of the night. And in those representations, Heaven is a very real place.

NB - Near Death Experiences also provide a corpus of circumstantial & witness testimony evidence suggesting very strongly that there is a continuation of consciousness very much agreeing with concepts of a godly, loving, joyful, peaceful Heaven, beyond the point that all body processes & brain signalling has ceased.

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

I respect everyone's right to believe the way they want. And many don't want to believe in the Bible and that is their right.

The Bible itself tells a Christian when they deal with others who are nonbelievers that they must treat them with deep respect and with a mild spirit, always ready to make a defense for our beliefs when asked:


"But sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have, but doing so with a mild temper and deep respect."-1 Peter 3:15.


Jehovah's Witnesses have no dogma or doctrine. They adhere strictly to the Bible as the authority. If it is not in the Bible they do not teach it. This is not a problem. It is actually a mark of having the truth. Something no other Christian religion has.

Just a few posts above this the claim was made that they have false prophets and believe that Jesus is locked up in a JW tower somewhere. This is the nonsense that is used, when ignoring the truth. There is a reason when reasoned with from the scripture, they ignore it and resort to lies and name-calling. And it isn't because they are lovers of truth, or have the truth. Quite the opposite is the reality.

If you were only to open your eyes to see the truth many of you would become ashamed of yourselves. Because I see earnestness, and a desire to please God. And he no doubt is patiently calling toward the righteous heart to listen to his word.

God's word said that the gifts of prophesying would cease:

"Love never fails. But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease."-1 Corinthians 13:8.

The first century Christian congregation had these gifts as it was God's proof that he had removed his holy spirit from the natural nation of Israel and was blessing the newly formed Christian congregation.

Only the 12 apostles, and Paul (the apostle to the nations) and those whom they laid their hands on received the gifts of the holy spirit, of healing, speaking in tongues, prophecy. Others had the gift to discern inspired expressions. So by the time the Holy Scriptures had come to the completion with the last books of the Bible, the letters from apostle John being written, the Bible canon was closed. And with the dying off of the last of the apostles so also the gifts of the holy spirit ceased. They are no longer required.

Jehovah has his spirit-begotten anointed Christian congregation that Jesus Christ as leader is directing in our day. Over 20,000 Jehovah's Witnesses have been begotten by holy spirit. And all the members of the governing body, a group of experienced spiritual elders taking the lead in the world are spirit-begotten. They are the "faithful and discreet slave" that Jesus Christ has appointed over all his domestics. It is by means of prayer, reading the Bible, study, and meditation, along with holy spirit that they come to accurate understanding of scripture and the ability to apply it. That is why they have removed the pagan dogmas and doctrines that apostate Christianity let seep into the congregation. That is why the are united with love worldwide the true identifying mark of true Christianity.

They are the ones fulfilling Matthew 24:14 that that good news of God's kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations and then the end will come.

You said that we are the 144,000 Jews in spirit, not in flesh.

The bible says, we are baptized into one spirit in Christ - aka the body of Christ.

How then can the one spirit, be divided into 12 tribes of Israel, which the 144,000 are. 12K from each tribe.

I'll have a look at what you wrote, but at the moment this occurred to me.

Also, you do realize, not even 1 percent of "Christians" believs what you are proposing, right?

Whenever I hold onto a belief, that might vary from the mainstream thought, like aliens are fallen angels, etc, I usually try to add the caveat, these are my believs etc, based on interpretation on text. Do you ever feel the need to do the same concerning these "fringe" theories?

With all respect. Cheers.