Knew This Was Coming

a reply to: quintessentone

I still am not seeing how genetics is "unfair"
yes there are circumstances which females can have raised testosterone levels compared to other females but still does not address, that genetics is the major difference between men and women,
These studies do NOT apply to children and in no way give credence to the idea that we should be trying to change the genetic structure of children

originally posted by: datguy
a reply to: quintessentone

I still am not seeing how genetics is "unfair"
yes there are circumstances which females can have raised testosterone levels compared to other females but still does not address, that genetics is the major difference between men and women,
These studies do NOT apply to children and in no way give credence to the idea that we should be trying to change the genetic structure of children

That study does apply to children experiencing early maturation which gives them an unfair athletic advantage.

originally posted by: datguy
a reply to: JAGStorm

and yet it was still performed when other methods could be used, and in a "routine" exam

also a far cry from a simple observation that can be used to assess gender.

Dont get me wrong, i dont think kids should subject to either, especially in cases such as the OP
but, i also do not think the laws are prescribing such invasive "gender checks"
i asked earlier which laws were in question and in which states, so i could see for myself but have gotten no reply yet

Sorry, work got in the way. Here's a few states:
Ohio, Idaho, Kansas

I can get more later if you want. Just didn't want you to think I was ignoring it. Back to work now.

a reply to: frogs453

on it, as soon as i can i will dive in, ty

a reply to: quintessentone

I suppose we should both stop here as this particular evidence does not indicate the sample group nor does the evidence provide source material of said study. neither of can definitively prove or disprove our debate based on this alone.

I just now saw the NIH article you dropped, and when I have a chance I will read it, i hope you do as well i do love a good debate

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: putnam6

originally posted by: TonyS
a reply to: frogs453

My point is that there is nothing to stop a parent from making these accusations for whatever reason and especially if their child loses a game, a match, a tournament and with more and more laws being enacted, such as yesterday a veto overturned in Ohio, which will allow subjecting a young child to genital inspections is awful.

You make the perfect case for ending and banning Schools sponsored sports and sporting events. By ending these sports programs, the schools would save hundreds of millions of dollars across the country. There are numerous GOOD reasons to end these sports programs; the transgender problem, the problem of differently abled kids; the promotion of privilge of tall, fit kids over the short, fat kids, etc.

Another good outcome of ending these sports programs is that the awful, obnoxious parents would no longer be at each other's throats during events.

We separate males and females why not have a transgender designation? Certainly, if this is a widespread issue there will be plenty of participants in a district.

Because respectfully ending sports because we are having issues with this new situation is a gross overreaction

Sports give so many kids an opportunity they wouldn't have

It instills discipline and teamwork and social skills and keeps teenage males from being raving lunatics, seriously haven't you heard "burn off some steam"? You think every teen problems are bad now, take away sports it increases dramatically

Im all for protecting kids but taking sports away from 97% because 3% of these conflicted, confused, and troubled kids can't find a spot on the girls' swim team, is an utterly ridiculous notion.

I say that knowing the health issues with high school football. The positives significantly outweigh the negatives

Why not take it a step further, have testosterone and estrogen designations, that way everyone can be categorized and persecuted equally, then eliminated.

Respectfully who is persecuting who here?


It seems that 3% are persecuting the 97% because the 97% don't want a biological male to compete with their daughters. Nobody gives a # about female-to-male trans playing against males because they would mostly get thier asses kicked.

You can pile ridiculous overreaction upon ridiculous overreaction and it still is a topic that can be voted on in each district and in the districts where it's a real issue it can be addressed by a county or district's school board.

Testosterone and estrogen levels would have to be tested every competition logistically a nightmare BTW and our fricking schools can barely afford to educate our kids as it is.

I could get behind a weight-level designation, but in team sports, that crap isn't gonna work most schools can barely field teams now, and it still doesn't address mid-trans boys dressing with girls, which is a fair concern of the 97%

It's like letting a jockey ride a motorcycle at the Kentucky Derby it's such a distinct advantage it ruins the competition for the 97%

a reply to: putnam6

I am just pointing out the unfair advantages in sports that have existed forever between female athletes and children who mature early and that everyone makes the choice to ignore.

a reply to: quintessentone

Do you *know* who/what you are talking to?

I assume not or you wouldn't be telling me this on the basic assumption that I don't understand sports, females, and what happens to one when you are exposed to slightly more testosterone in utero than average.

But I am not intersex nor am I a trans with a fully male biological body. For me to carry *that* kind of advantage from testosterone, I would have to be regularly juicing ... as a woman. That's something that would get me banned from competition,but somehow, you and others think it's 1000% A-OK for someone essentially *born* juicing to suddenly decide their brain "AND ONLY THEIR BRAIN" is totes female and carry that uneven juicing advantage into our playing field.

Get into sports. Train head to head with men, and you'll understand. I have done it my entire, multi-decade competitive career across two sports now.

a reply to: quintessentone

Life is full of unfair advantages, and most mature people have learned to optimize their respective talents and compensate for hindrances. This is a healthy way of seeing the disparities between individuals, rather than handicapping people for their excellence, and therefore catering to the lowest common denominator and celebrating and encouraging mediocrity.

If a person lacks the talent to compete athletically, there are always recreational leagues as an option.

Keeping men out of women's sports has successfully created spaces where talented athletes can thrive, and recreational, or intramural teams exist for those who love it, but lack the strength or talent of their peers.

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: datguy
a reply to: quintessentone

I still am not seeing how genetics is "unfair"
yes there are circumstances which females can have raised testosterone levels compared to other females but still does not address, that genetics is the major difference between men and women,
These studies do NOT apply to children and in no way give credence to the idea that we should be trying to change the genetic structure of children

That study does apply to children experiencing early maturation which gives them an unfair athletic advantage.

The ones who mature early only carry that advantage for a period of a few years. There is research that also suggests that late bloomers aren't nearly as disadvantaged as all that. For one thing, early maturation comes with a higher rate of burnout.

Speaking as a late bloomer ...

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: putnam6

originally posted by: TonyS
a reply to: frogs453

My point is that there is nothing to stop a parent from making these accusations for whatever reason and especially if their child loses a game, a match, a tournament and with more and more laws being enacted, such as yesterday a veto overturned in Ohio, which will allow subjecting a young child to genital inspections is awful.

You make the perfect case for ending and banning Schools sponsored sports and sporting events. By ending these sports programs, the schools would save hundreds of millions of dollars across the country. There are numerous GOOD reasons to end these sports programs; the transgender problem, the problem of differently abled kids; the promotion of privilge of tall, fit kids over the short, fat kids, etc.

Another good outcome of ending these sports programs is that the awful, obnoxious parents would no longer be at each other's throats during events.

We separate males and females why not have a transgender designation? Certainly, if this is a widespread issue there will be plenty of participants in a district.

Because respectfully ending sports because we are having issues with this new situation is a gross overreaction

Sports give so many kids an opportunity they wouldn't have

It instills discipline and teamwork and social skills and keeps teenage males from being raving lunatics, seriously haven't you heard "burn off some steam"? You think every teen problems are bad now, take away sports it increases dramatically

Im all for protecting kids but taking sports away from 97% because 3% of these conflicted, confused, and troubled kids can't find a spot on the girls' swim team, is an utterly ridiculous notion.

I say that knowing the health issues with high school football. The positives significantly outweigh the negatives

Why not take it a step further, have testosterone and estrogen designations, that way everyone can be categorized and persecuted equally, then eliminated.

Y'all know this moment in time is just the latest addition to a laundry list of f*cktard logic flips event where huge swaths of citizenry are red/blue arguing over these f*cktard issues ?

2 party illusion political is hardcore at work & tbh as one who can stand back & marvel at the fracturing of public's common sense, it's both humbling but equally scary as.

a mere blink in time & of course it was day to day normal for dudes, any type of dude, regardless of whether he got a little man voice in his head or a lil girly voice in there talking to his conscience as he navigates the teens & young man stage.

supply & demand is a guiding factor. Kids sure as sh*t didn't all of a sudden start demanding to have dudes in their spaces only too happy to get around them in there with the junk out.
There is no court sentence that i know of that insists dudes venture into kids spaces & get the kit off so it only leaves the option of that it is these dudes & their desire to be around kids when themselves or the kids & themselves both are naked ?

Since that is the only possibility why such a sin is being argued over at all - & we all must agree such f*cktardery sin just mustn't be allowed to happen we firmly deal with any sick opportunist that try's such f*cktardery.

Let any supporter of such yap away about feelings/persecution/, their yaps become whines when they feel they have an opponent. Leave them to their delusional thoughts that it's ok & overdue to be able to , should the mood wash over them, stroll into kids spaces ,take up position & go about stripping off & flowing the schlong around.

Don't engage. It's adult inadequacy tantrumming subconsciously. Leave them to their sick beliefs= .007%

originally posted by: zosimov
a reply to: quintessentone

Life is full of unfair advantages, and most mature people have learned to optimize their respective talents and compensate for hindrances. This is a healthy way of seeing the disparities between individuals, rather than handicapping people for their excellence, and therefore catering to the lowest common denominator and celebrating and encouraging mediocrity.

If a person lacks the talent to compete athletically, there are always recreational leagues as an option.

Keeping men out of women's sports has successfully created spaces where talented athletes can thrive, and recreational, or intramural teams exist for those who love it, but lack the strength or talent of their peers.

When one athlete has an unfair physiological advantage over another then talent does not have a chance.

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: zosimov
a reply to: quintessentone

Life is full of unfair advantages, and most mature people have learned to optimize their respective talents and compensate for hindrances. This is a healthy way of seeing the disparities between individuals, rather than handicapping people for their excellence, and therefore catering to the lowest common denominator and celebrating and encouraging mediocrity.

If a person lacks the talent to compete athletically, there are always recreational leagues as an option.

Keeping men out of women's sports has successfully created spaces where talented athletes can thrive, and recreational, or intramural teams exist for those who love it, but lack the strength or talent of their peers.

When one athlete has an unfair physiological advantage over another then talent does not have a chance.

Uh, what do think talent is? Everything about a competition is designed to reduce it a matter of variance in physical ability and training.

There is a reason why youth divisions are divided by a few years (2 to 3) and adult divisions are decadal. It evens out maturation differences. Similarly, men are divided from women for similar reasons are bodies are structured differently and our different hormones create very real muscular and bone mass differences that put the two sexes on different physical planes.

A few months or even years of estrogen doesn't reverse that enough to make it fair.

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: zosimov
a reply to: quintessentone

Life is full of unfair advantages, and most mature people have learned to optimize their respective talents and compensate for hindrances. This is a healthy way of seeing the disparities between individuals, rather than handicapping people for their excellence, and therefore catering to the lowest common denominator and celebrating and encouraging mediocrity.

If a person lacks the talent to compete athletically, there are always recreational leagues as an option.

Keeping men out of women's sports has successfully created spaces where talented athletes can thrive, and recreational, or intramural teams exist for those who love it, but lack the strength or talent of their peers.

When one athlete has an unfair physiological advantage over another then talent does not have a chance.

Allen Iverson begs to differ.

Standing just 6-feet tall, Allen Iverson became one of the most lethal scorers in NBA history. While he was frequently the smallest player on the court, he could get anywhere he wanted because of his quickness, strength, and handle. Nicknamed

www.hoophall.com...#:~:text=Standing%20just%206%2Dfeet%20tall,quickness%2C%20strength%2C%20and%20hand le.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: quintessentone

Do you *know* who/what you are talking to?

I assume not or you wouldn't be telling me this on the basic assumption that I don't understand sports, females, and what happens to one when you are exposed to slightly more testosterone in utero than average.

But I am not intersex nor am I a trans with a fully male biological body. For me to carry *that* kind of advantage from testosterone, I would have to be regularly juicing ... as a woman. That's something that would get me banned from competition,but somehow, you and others think it's 1000% A-OK for someone essentially *born* juicing to suddenly decide their brain "AND ONLY THEIR BRAIN" is totes female and carry that uneven juicing advantage into our playing field.

Get into sports. Train head to head with men, and you'll understand. I have done it my entire, multi-decade competitive career across two sports now.

I'm not defending transwomen in women's sports, but that we should really be looking at the lack of proper assessment of athletes that have physiological traits which gives them the edge to win. That includes women athletes with high levels of testosterone.

The same with young children entering early maturation stages, there is an unfair advantage. But you don't see any people walking up to a young girl involved in a sports event, with obvious signs of early maturation, then causing a scene about her having an unfair advantage.

I am debating the unfairness of assessing athletes whether in adult or children's sports. The persecution topic comes in when people look at a girl with short hair and make their assumptions as to their gender...it's atrocious behaviour within the anti-trans community.

It just seems so hypocritical to me that some people are only looking for trans under the guise or unfair advantage when other unfair advantages exist as well. But, not really, because...anti-trans.

a reply to: quintessentone

So in your assessment, sports are pointless unless everyone crosses the line at the same time?

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: zosimov
a reply to: quintessentone

Life is full of unfair advantages, and most mature people have learned to optimize their respective talents and compensate for hindrances. This is a healthy way of seeing the disparities between individuals, rather than handicapping people for their excellence, and therefore catering to the lowest common denominator and celebrating and encouraging mediocrity.

If a person lacks the talent to compete athletically, there are always recreational leagues as an option.

Keeping men out of women's sports has successfully created spaces where talented athletes can thrive, and recreational, or intramural teams exist for those who love it, but lack the strength or talent of their peers.

When one athlete has an unfair physiological advantage over another then talent does not have a chance.

Uh, what do think talent is? Everything about a competition is designed to reduce it a matter of variance in physical ability and training.

There is a reason why youth divisions are divided by a few years (2 to 3) and adult divisions are decadal. It evens out maturation differences. Similarly, men are divided from women for similar reasons are bodies are structured differently and our different hormones create very real muscular and bone mass differences that put the two sexes on different physical planes.

A few months or even years of estrogen doesn't reverse that enough to make it fair.

Depends on the type of competition and from my experience in many different types of sports, it can be a mixture of many things but again depending on which type of competition.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: quintessentone

So in your assessment, sports are pointless unless everyone crosses the line at the same time?

From my research, children's sports have many issues that need to be looked at in an objective way.

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: quintessentone

So in your assessment, sports are pointless unless everyone crosses the line at the same time?

From my research, children's sports have many issues that need to be looked at in an objective way.

Answer the questions ... What is talent? And do you think sports should end in a universal tie or it's not fair?

Just an interesting aside, the world record for women in thec400m dash is 47.6. In the US alone, the top 10 best high school boys are all easily under that mark, and more besides.

That gives you some idea of the physical gap between male and female bodies.

originally posted by: zosimov

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: zosimov
a reply to: quintessentone

Life is full of unfair advantages, and most mature people have learned to optimize their respective talents and compensate for hindrances. This is a healthy way of seeing the disparities between individuals, rather than handicapping people for their excellence, and therefore catering to the lowest common denominator and celebrating and encouraging mediocrity.

If a person lacks the talent to compete athletically, there are always recreational leagues as an option.

Keeping men out of women's sports has successfully created spaces where talented athletes can thrive, and recreational, or intramural teams exist for those who love it, but lack the strength or talent of their peers.

When one athlete has an unfair physiological advantage over another then talent does not have a chance.

Allen Iverson begs to differ.

Standing just 6-feet tall, Allen Iverson became one of the most lethal scorers in NBA history. While he was frequently the smallest player on the court, he could get anywhere he wanted because of his quickness, strength, and handle. Nicknamed

www.hoophall.com...#:~:text=Standing%20just%206%2Dfeet%20tall,quickness%2C%20strength%2C%20and%20hand le.

Exactly, it depends on the type of competition, but ...

"Allen Iverson Have a Ring? Allen Iverson does not have a ring. His teams never won a championship and, in fact, were only close one time. Iverson played 11 seasons in two stints with the Philadelphia 76ers, two seasons with the Denver Nuggets and one with the Detroit Pistons."

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: quintessentone

So in your assessment, sports are pointless unless everyone crosses the line at the same time?

From my research, children's sports have many issues that need to be looked at in an objective way.

Answer the questions ... What is talent? And do you think sports should end in a universal tie or it's not fair?

Just an interesting aside, the world record for women in thec400m dash is 47.6. In the US alone, the top 10 best high school boys are all easily under that mark, and more besides.

That gives you some idea of the physical gap between male and female bodies.

I am not debating the gaps between male to female bodies, nor am I debating transwomen in female sports.

You keep bringing that up when my debate position is on anti-trans people looking for anything trans and now in children's sports events. Totally different discussion.

My question is why not look for that female child with early maturation and pointing her out to everyone as having an unfair physical advantage too?

See where I'm going?