Missouri Allows Spanking in Classrooms

a reply to: neo96

I think the root causes of school shootings in the US lie much deeper than the lack of corporal punishment.

I've always said all the beatings I got in school did me no harm, but they didn't do me any good either.
When I look back on it now I recognise now it gave me nothing but contempt for authority and was pretty much numb to all the violence I was involved in and what was around me.

Sure, its a deterrent to the majority but what I experienced was truly brutal and I wouldn't wish on anyone.

Beating kids isn't the answer.

I think the root causes of school shootings in the US lie much deeper than the lack of corporal punishment.

The children are being drugged with all kinds of medications.

Wow.

We are totally screwed up as a species. Extinction is looking more probable every time someone posts. No one needs to worry about an asteroid hitting the planet or everyone freezing in the coming fiery flood... we'll kill ourselves off within a generation at this rate.

First, let me clarify a few things for those who seem to be determined to take this train completely off the rails:

• First and foremost, no child should ever... ever... be struck in anger. That is not what is being done in Missouri. We're talking about punishment for bad behavior. Calm, methodical, certain punishment. I spanked my kids when they got out of line, but never in anger. If I was angry, their punishment was put off until I wasn't angry.
  
  
• Missouri is not talking about abuse. There is a huge difference between abuse and discipline. Abuse is done to a child because the abuser wants to. Discipline is done to a child because the discipliner wants to help them. Abuse tends to leave marks, scars, and anger... discipline leaves respect.
  
  
• There are so many in this thread who, I hope at least, have never had kids. If they did their kids were likely abused, just not by a belt or force. There are other ways to abuse a child than hitting them...one of the worst is emotional abuse. That's when a parent cares so little about them that they don't care what they grow up to be... only that they grow up and get out of the parents' hair.
  
  
• The correlation between school shootings and lack of corporal punishment is unquestionable. The decision is not whether "someone hits my kid," but rather whether "some kid shoots my kid" or whether "my kid shoots someone else's kid." If you're having trouble with that concept, then you really need to examine your own mentality.
  
  
• Yes, we have school teachers who can't teach. We have school teachers who abuse students. We have school teachers who do all kinds of horrendous things. But the solution is not to let them continue and just keep them from hitting kids... the solution is to not let them around kids. We have school boards for that very purpose... if your school district is allowing teachers in the schools who abuse children, make them get rid of them!
  
  The other option, which I have used, is to very quietly and politely explain to the offending teacher/principal that they are about to spend an inordinate amount of time recovering in the hospital from abuse themselves.
  
  
• Kids are not "little adults." Kids are kids... they are learning about the word around them and where they fit in. Spare the rod and they will learn that they can do whatever they want whenever they want and nothing will ever happen to them because of it. Spank that butt when they do wrong, and they will learn that such behavior is not as pleasant as they thought it was. Things have worked that way for thousands of years, and no law can stop them from working that way.
  
  
• Speaking of which, we have not "evolved beyond spanking our kids." We have devolved into a planet of unruly potential criminals.
  
  
• Allowing a school to spank a child for bad behavior is not "abdicating one's parental role." It is recognizing that your child is now in a social situation and Mommy and Daddy are not there. They are growing up. If someone commits a crime, they are arrested and, if found guilty, punished. Is that what you want for your child? To have the law show up and arrest them, try them for a crime, find them guilty, and throw them behind bars for a few years like an animal? Because that is the alternative to spanking... one does not get to break the rules of society freely without punishment.
  
  
• For those who want to preach "positive enforcement," sure, that's a good idea. However, it does not work if there is no negative enforcement to go with it. It's called "the carrot and the stick" for a reason... not "the stick and the whip" or "the carrot and the potato." A good parent rewards good behavior and punishes bad behavior... both.
  
  While I'm here, "taking away their Iphone" is not a substitute for spanking. All you have done in that case is make them angry and force yourself to keep paying for an Iphone so you will have some sort of "punishment." No wonder people think it costs so much to raise a child today... they are including the price of all those toys they can take away!
  
  
• One other thing that I have personally seen... it seems like today, every child has some sort of "syndrome." It all started with ADD (later expanded to ADHD). Now, maybe there are a few people with an actual disorder that has a medical cause, but the vast majority of those ADD/ADHD diagnosed kids honestly just needed a little negative reinforcement and parents who gave enough of a crap about them to care how they grew up. We call it "needing one's butt beat." No medication required; most recover fully within 10 minutes if addressed in a timely manner.

My congratulations to Missouri for actually trying to fix a problem that has been so broken for so long.

TheRedneck

a reply to: DerBeobachter

I kind of chimed out mentally after reading redhead and came back. To read your post completely with the attention it deserves. It was one of the things on my mental list today, as yesterday I was too tired and groggy to reply.

You covered a lot of places with your post that I can relate to, lived through or agree with. It's beautiful to read how you handle the situation and reflect about it and come up with solutions instead of simple blaming. I could not do that for a long time, the way you do.

It was very bitter for me when I lost my parents during a time they distrusted and doubted me a lot, for things I was too young to understand or grasp. I understand and understood they did this to protect me but still I felt being outcast. Something between us broke because of things that I did not ask for and too young to say no or understand what was happening. I went through similar situations as the aftermath and had a younger brother too. And it's less about not getting the same attention as some reading this might think. It was about love, or not feeling loved or trusted again.

Then they were all gone and I could never tell them all this or speak about it with them. Not sure if it would have been helping or only make things worse. But I hated myself for being the only one left, as it did not feel like I deserve it.

To estrange oneself from or being estranged by parents is something that should not happen. Yet it does. Now I am mother myself. And see myself in similar situations, although by far not as extreme as I or you lived through. I hope you can someday approach your father and forgive him for what happened and have a better relationship with him. We all make mistakes as parents. Often it is to protect and not to harm. Often we as parents overshoot or forget we were young and without wisdom in the past too.

a reply to: JAGStorm

Paddling kids?

Sounds like groomer behavior to me.

a reply to: TheRedneck

Missouri is not talking about abuse.

Oh please, this is so old. Just because they aren't talking about it doesn't mean it won't happen.
Just look at any position in power and you'll see abuse is quite common.

Religious leaders, police, teachers, politicians, celebrities, and on and on.

There are so many in this thread who, I hope at least, have never had kids. If they did their kids were likely abused, just not by a belt or force.

If you you think people can't raise healthy normal kids without a belt or force I feel really sorry for the world you're living in.

One other thing that I have personally seen... it seems like today, every child has some sort of "syndrome."

This isn't from lack of spanking, we live in a world full of fake food, overmedication, over stimulation, but according to you why don't we add in a good butt whopping for good measure, that will surely cure all those things.

originally posted by: grey580
a reply to: JAGStorm

Paddling kids?

Sounds like groomer behavior to me.

Sounds like it is because it is.

a reply to: JAGStorm

I'm pretty sure I've read most of the comments but I don't think anyone has actually answered my questions.
So I did some digging............

Abuse is defined in Missouri as “any physical injury, sexual abuse or emotional abuse inflicted on a child other than by accidental means by those responsible for the child's care, custody and control, except that discipline including spanking, administered in a reasonable manner, shall not be construed to be abuse”

Well what is considered "reasonable"? What if it leaves marks? Is that abuse. What if the spanking leaves emotional abuse, which I believe it does...

a reply to: JAGStorm

Oh please, this is so old. Just because they aren't talking about it doesn't mean it won't happen.
Just look at any position in power and you'll see abuse is quite common.

So your solution is to just let the kids do whatever they want, whenever they want, to whomever they want? All so people don't have to do the dirty work of holding those in positions of authority accountable?

Forgive me, but that sounds an awful lot like good, old-fashioned laziness. And that is older than my argument.

If you you think people can't raise healthy normal kids without a belt or force I feel really sorry for the world you're living in.

I live in reality. The sane reality where kids can't even learn the basics they go to school for because the classrooms are in such disarray. The same reality that is concerned that some kid is going to bring a gun to school and shoot other kids. The same reality where the US educational system has turned into an International punch line. The same school where kids get hauled off to prison for the same thing that once would get them a few minutes of a sore butt.

I don't like this reality, and I want it back to when the biggest discipline problem was kids smoking in the bathrooms or playing hookey.

This isn't from lack of spanking, we live in a world full of fake food, overmedication, over stimulation, but according to you why don't we add in a good butt whopping for good measure, that will surely cure all those things.

All that medication isn't needed when a good butt-whooping is used.

I raised two successful, well-adjusted, independent children to adulthood. I spanked them both as needed. On the other hand, I have known several parents who refused to spank their kids no matter what; most of them are either in prison, living on welfare, or working two or three part-time jobs to keep body and soul together. I'll stick with what works, thank you very much.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

So your solution is to just let the kids do whatever they want, whenever they want, to whomever they want? All so people don't have to do the dirty work of holding those in positions of authority accountable?

HECK NO, but there are numerous ways to diclipline that don't involve physical punishment.

All that medication isn't needed when a good butt-whooping is used.

I raised two successful, well-adjusted, independent children to adulthood.

So did I and mine can say I didn't have to resort to physical abuse.

a reply to: JAGStorm

Well what is considered "reasonable"?

Legally, "reasonable" is considered a self-explanatory term. It is what a "reasonable" person would consider "reasonable."

I would consider the totality of the situation. Was it a first-time offense? Then marks would be unreasonable. Deep marks would be unreasonable regardless. Any contact to any area except the butts I would consider unreasonable, since that can cause physical damage. Contact with the bare hand I would consider probably unreasonable, since that could give the impression of sexual intent. Certainly inter-gender spankings would be unreasonable... only men should spank boys and only women should spank girls.

What if the spanking leaves emotional abuse, which I believe it does...

I read your OP about your experience. Without further information, I'd have to say that it is indicative of a spoiled child who thinks they can get away with anything. If that offends you, so be it.

I received plenty of spankings growing up: a few from school, some from Mom, most from Dad with that thin leather belt he wore. I never felt I was being abused; I always knew why I was being spanked. The reason I got so few at school was that Dad had a rule: get spanked at school, you get a worse one when you get home. I can still remember Dad telling me, "this is going to hurt me more than it is you." At the time I thought it was the silliest thing I had ever heard, until I had to spank my kids. It really did hurt me more than it hurt them. But I loved them enough to do it no matter how badly it hurt me.

TheRedneck

a reply to: JAGStorm

there are numerous ways to diclipline that don't involve physical punishment.

OK, let's go with that.

Little Johnny, let's say 8 years old, is poking Betty (same age) in the back and making her jump during class. Teacher tells Johnny to stop. Johnny doesn't stop. Teacher tells Johnny to move to another seat. Johnny says "no! I'm staying here!" Teacher reaches for Johnny's arm to move him to another seat. Johnny stabs teacher with his pencil.

What do you suggest teacher do?

So did I and mine can say I didn't have to resort to physical abuse.

Mine have both thanked me since becoming adults for enforcing those boundaries on them.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

Johnny stabs teacher with his pencil.

What do you suggest teacher do?

Johnny gets sent to principals office and possibly gets detention/suspension. Parents have to pay for medical bills from the teacher.

Paddling Johnny teaches him what? Violence for violence?

www.apa.org...#:~:text=Many%20studies%20have%20shown%20that,mental%20health%20problems%20for%20children.

Many studies have shown that physical punishment — including spanking, hitting and other means of causing pain — can lead to increased aggression, antisocial behavior, physical injury and mental health problems for children. Americans’ acceptance of physical punishment has declined since the 1960s, yet surveys show that two-thirds of Americans still approve of parents spanking their kids.

a reply to: TheRedneck

It sounds super creepy that some adult wants to touch kids inappropriately. Granted it's with a paddle. But it sounds way groomerish.

There's plenty of other ways to discipline kids that don't involve touching them in an area that if you touched an adult you would be charged with sexual assault.

a reply to: TheRedneck

Violence begets violence.

All corporal punishment taught me was defiance.
Never to let on that I'd been hurt, to look at the people who beat me straight in the eyes and say 'is that it?' no matter how much it was hurting me.

It taught me a contempt for authority, something I struggle with to this day even though I'm bordering 57 years old.
It taught me not to fear violence and to accept it.

Children need discipline and they need punishing at times.

Beating them isn't the answer.

a reply to: Xtrozero

Define pedophile for me so we can at least understand what you mean by it. You are using it incorrectly...

Google or any dictionary can do that for you Xtrozero.

What i mean can be summed up in the second sentence of my last post.

They are children and deserve to be protected not sold or swapped like chattel and abused and used to breed the next generation where its apt to happen again.

Simple.

I was paddled a few times in school growing up and paddled at home. Looking back I deserved each time. Yeah it made me mad and embarrassed me at the time but I’m a firm believer in if you can’t do the time don’t do the crime

What happens if a kid resists or refuses to be beaten? Does he or she get beat down, handcuffed, or have the police called?

Can they slap a kid?

How young can they get beat, or how old, in High school too?

What about the trauma it does to a kid?

originally posted by: andy06shake
Google or any dictionary can do that for you Xtrozero.

OK I'll help.

Pedophilia (alternatively spelt paedophilia) is a psychiatric disorder in which an adult or older adolescent experiences a primary or exclusive sexual attraction to prepubescent children.[1][2] Although girls typically begin the process of puberty at age 10 or 11, and boys at age 11 or 12,[3] criteria for pedophilia extend the cut-off point for prepubescence to age 13.[4] A person must be at least 16 years old, and at least five years older than the prepubescent child, for the attraction to be diagnosed as pedophilia.[4][5]

This is a person that is sexually attracted to prepubescent children. Not 13, 14, 15,16, 17 year olds... By your definition if a person was 17 dating a 15 yearold and then turned 18 they are now a pedo.

They are children and deserve to be protected not sold or swapped like chattel and abused and used to breed the next generation where its apt to happen again.

Simple.

Well we agree, but is that what is happening, or just your Melodramatic point. You act like 18 is some number written in stone since forever as to what changes a person from a child to an adult and until recent times it really has never been, Go back 100+ years and a 14 yearold male would be looking for work and by the time they were 20 would we well into their career/profession. Women by 15 would be looking for a husband and if they hit 20 before being married they would be called a spinster soon after that.

In UK it was 16 until just this last April and I'm sure that change has more to do with the real sharia law that has invaded UK this last decade or so, but you can still be 40 and have sex legally anytime you want with a 16 yearold in the UK. Most of these laws in the US are to protect young people as in one hits 18 and the other is not. I agree every year past 3 it gets very creepy, but every person is different as how they mature, so I would need to look at cases to make a judgement call and not just wide brush it all as you have done.

It seems 18 is still sliding as many things now you need to be 21 to do, so maybe in 100 years there will be someone like you calling anyone who is with a person under 21 a pedo too as 20 and below are just children.

a reply to: Xtrozero

In UK it was 16 until just this last April and I'm sure that change has more to do with the real sharia law that has invaded UK this last decade or so.....

A slight aside....but what changes and what Sharia Law?