Missouri Allows Spanking in Classrooms

originally posted by: kebos
I am 52 now but in junior high we had a teacher who paddled 4 or 5 every class.She didn't ever hurt anyone but maybe she thought she did.Had another who paddled the whole class at the end of class time but had to carry over to the next day and by then he just gave up.His board was the barracuda lol.Others had holes drilled in their paddles,I had one principal who used a leather strap.The ones who rarely paddled were the ones to not make mad or you would pay.

Most of us turned out ok with paddling or no paddling but the worst I witnessed was when a parent was called in and he did the paddling himself.I felt sorry for that kid,it was extremely hard.Too hard to be hit with a board.If his dad did that there where others could see then there was no telling what he may have endured at home.

Jesus that is just crazy, but then beating your kids on a daily bases is kind of crazy too. Maybe all of it should be caged in and not just suggest outliers to prove a point that really has very little to do with this topic. I'm a boomer and if the school said Johnny did such and such I would say paddle or not. IF the school told me to come in and do it I would say FU to the school and take my kid home and deal with it other ways, BUT what the F led to the who thing in the first place, kind of the bigger question here, right? No one is using logic here...

originally posted by: andy06shake

The moral of that story, love your parent's people, as they are not here forever.

I have seen parents too hard on their kids with never anything like a spanking. Emotional attacks and long term 100% authority in the home just makes your kids hate you in the end. I been told I spoil my kids because I pay for their college and demand, and I mean demand they focus on school, or dad is gone. If they do that then the world is at their feet, and I mean everything. if they don't and choose to go another path then its OK with me, but doesn't mean I need to support it in anyway. Its all about having the ability to control and for a 3 yearold you can't take their phone from them so there is nothing but a swat on the butt. Kids that come from broken families are extremely hard to guild in there is nothing you can use on them. OK, go ahead and beat me, I get beat everyday, go ahead and take away all I have which is nothing. What you need to do is build privileges that are not rights as rights is a very small list, but kids today think everything is a right, so you lose control.

My kids fully know what rights they have with me as parent and what privileges I offer as a parent and they are damn glad I'm their dad, but they 100% understand what I provide as privileges. You and I are not that far apart even though we box the words now and then.

a reply to: JAGStorm

Sorry , I could Not Resist...................*)

a reply to: andy06shake

Good luck digging yourself out of that hole.

There's no hole to get out of here. My daughter is strong, capable, intelligent, and successful. Apparently I raised her well. I doubt you have any children that could hold a candle to her abilities.

Proof is in the pudding. Not in your little fantasy.

Your are the one that needs guns to protect you and/or does not feel safe without them.

And you are the one who thinks they will never be in a situation where they need one. I am only here because one time I had to pull a gun on another human. Had that been you, we wouldn't be here having to listen to your warped sense of reality.

Please don't shoot children all the same, can only imagine what they would need to do to provoke such a wrath, trespass by the sounds of it.

Ah, more fantasy word twisting. Maybe I was wrong... seems more like a career than a hobby with you.

I live in Glasgow mate plain and simple.

Whoopie-da-doo-dah.

Are we supposed to be impressed? That you are proud of living in a country that has one of the worst records of conquest, oppression, and subjugation of other cultures in world history, not even second to the USA (and that is saying something!)? Not sorry that I'm not impressed.

The past is the past, like i suggest we are supposed to learn from such and not repeat the same mistakes

Let me put a few facts out there: for the vast amount of human history, children have been raised under threat of corporal punishment. To my memory, this changed around 1980 or so (couldn't have been earlier, because I graduated high school in 1979 with full knowledge that the sanctity of my behind was dependent on not doing stoopid). So around 40 years of experience with removing corporal punishment from society is all the evidence we have, and that period also has a direct correlation with increased pedophilia in schools, lowered results from the education system in general, increased scrutiny of parental rights, less respect for societal law and the rights of others from the youth, and increased discipline problems in the schools, up to and including, shoot shootings.

That is your legacy. That is what you advocate for.

The experiment is over. It failed. But, like the arrogant, self-righteous Anglo-Saxon you are (yes, I said it), you won't accept that. The world can burn as long as you get your way, and damn anyone who gets hurt in the process.

A necessary part of "correcting the mistakes of the past" is realizing what was and what was not a mistake. When (if?) you finally, someday, somehow manage to get that through your skull, maybe you'll be able to correct something. Until that day, you're just marking territory with your own diarrhea and calling it pudding.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: Xtrozero

Praytell, where are these ""Sharia law no-go zones"" in the UK, and please be specific?

Sounding like a Qanonanut now buddy.

Name calling is not that good, and it is actually a fallacy. I mean it is your God Damn country, you figure it out. If you think your mass immigration from the far east didn't bring nothing with them and now they are all good Brits, that is on you. We have towns close to Mexico that fly the Mexican flag with zero desire to be American...lol

We need immigration since our birth rates are negative, so our only population growth is immigration, so that is a good thing, BUT EU went too far and too fast... Just saying.

a reply to: network dude

different kids have different "triggers". Some respond to a smack on the ass, some respond to having their things removed, others may respond by being set in a chair and not allowed to move for a period of time. All of those tactics are punishment. And punishment isn't meant to hurt a child, but rather to get the child's attention to understand that what they just did was wrong, and needs to not be repeated.

Being in a caffeine-deprived state this morning (medical tests), I can only wish I had the mental acuity to state this as clearly as you just did. You hit the nail squarely on the head and drove it home.

I see parents all the time who refused to spank their kids. Occasionally one turns out OK... some don't really need spankings much at all. But more often than not, much more often than not, the parents finish raising the kids, the kids finally manage to move out, and twenty years later they've been through three different marriages, got kids all across the county they can't pay for, have been in jail, and are still saying "Welcome to McDonald's; can i take your order" as a part of their "career." They never own a home of their own, never drive a new car, and hang out with other failures at the game of life. Often they wind up in jail on a semi-permanent basis. Occasionally one goes postal and winds up making the news and the parents are wringing their hands on TV talking about how good a job they did raising them and how they don't know how this could have happened.

And the parents are oh, so proud that they raised their kids. Well, gee, I can burn beans with the best of them, but that doesn't mean I'm a five-star chef! Apparently, just letting a kid grow and somehow managing to keep him/her out of jail is what they consider a major accomplishment. Hell, a good number are now raising their grandkids because their kids can't or won't do so!

And they are usually the ones who try to look down on parents like me who can raise happy, healthy, capable children.

What really bothers me is that, even with all the turmoil we have seen over recent decades, the vast majority of which can be directly tied to a lack of discipline, we still have so many people right here in this thread that think it is barbaric to raise a child well. That is insanity, plain and simple. And it bodes no good for humanity as a whole. Jesus better hurry up and get back here, because too much delay and there might be no one left to rescue.

And people wonder why I have such a dismal view of humans... it's because I expect us to be defined in another generation or so as a lower life form to chimpanzees because we cant throw poo as well.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Xtrozero

One time my oldest by 3 years was picking on his brother, they were about 5 and 2.5. I picked my oldest up off the ground and pinned him to the wall and said very closely, "this is what bigger people can to to smaller, do you want me to be this way?" He said no with some fear in his eyes, I continued to said "then don't be that bigger kid on your brother then", so spanking is just a term we are using here.

I've seen parents do similar things, mainly to my friends when I was younger (I myself then had no desire to try it out on Dad, lol). It works! I've seen some of my friends turn their lives around 180 degrees.

The thing is, were you going to actually slap your son around? Of course not! That doesn't even need to be said to be understood. But, your son didn't know that and even if he did know it inside, I doubt he was very sure of that belief at the moment.

Another thing that seems to be glossed over here is that you told him why. You made sure he knew, clearly, without any doubt, why he was now in this position and what he needed to do to avoid it in the future. That's what is called "good parenting." Kudos to you, sir.

One thing that I have never seen fail in my younger days was that when a friend would go over the line and get picked up by the police for some minor tort or other (usually vandalism or just mischief in our case), the cops would call the parents without the kid knowing. Then, if the parents agreed (and almost all did) the cops would take the kid to jail and lock him in a cell. They wouldn't hurt him, but they weren't exactly easy with him either. He would sit there, listening to the cops making jokes outside his cell, mentioning how his Daddy couldn't help him now and how long he was going to be in there, for several hours. Finally, his Daddy would show up, with this stern look on his face, and tell the kid "I don't know if I can get you out of this one." Then he would leave and a few minutes later the kid would be free.

What was actually happening was this: The cop would call the Daddy and say something like, "Hey, I found Johnny trying to break into so-and-so's store. We have him at the station. You want us to scare him?" The choice was, Daddy could say yes and no charges would actually be filed, or Daddy could say no and the cops would likely have the kid in Juvenile under actual charges. This also only applied if the kid hadn't been in much trouble before... if the parents couldn't or wouldn't control him, the cops went by the book.

If the answer was yes, the cops would go into their routine. They never actually hurt anyone, like I said, but they would push them around a bit and joke among themselves in earshot about how much trouble the kid was in. To a 10, 12, 14 year old, that is like watching doom coming for him! They would throw him in a county cell, make sure that door slammed as loud as possible, and then stand just out of sight and joke some more. Then, at the pre-arranged time, Daddy would show up and play his role. He would go back to the cops, they would talk a bit about whether they think the kid had learned his lesson, and Daddy would somehow barely mange to spring the kid and take him home as was previously agreed.

I don't know of anyone who went through that who ever wound back up in jail.

That can't work today, though. No one trusts the cops (and far too often with good reason), and everyone thinks any attempt to stifle poor little Johnny is "squashing his creativity" or whatever the colloquialism du jour is. And as a result, far more kids approach age 18 with a criminal record, constantly unable to dodge that reputation, and end up going back to jail after they turn 18... this time as an adult, creating a permanent criminal history that will never go away.

I guess that's more "civilized." I'm just not sure how.

TheRedneck

a reply to: JAGStorm

We have cameras in every single aspect of our lives, why not live streams of classrooms?

I like that idea. And saved footage of every paddling, no exceptions, for parents to review. That will weed out the teachers who don't need to be there in the first place. Improper spanking is not the only way to abuse a child; a camera with sound would capture more than just spankings.

Of course, we have so many parents who think that their precious little bundle of joy is an angel who graciously agreed to grace this world with their presence, we would need some legal protection for teachers who do not abuse their students. That sword cuts both ways; no one is perfect 24/7.

The one issue is that we do have predators out there now, thanks to a few decades of lack of discipline. Streamed classroom cameras would give a lot of information that could be used maliciously. I think any streaming/archives should be restricted to parents of kids actually in the classroom.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Freeborn

I know you aren't advocating beating two year kids and I should have made that clear.

Thank you for that clarification.

Of course young children sometimes need a corrective little tap to remind or warn them, but that's as far as it should go.

My point was similar... but the tap on the diaper that works when very young is simply not sufficient at older ages. If one wishes to avoid the necessity of hard corporal punishment, the solution is to start young. And, since someone will figure out they can make a completely inane point by saying "why not age 2 weeks?" I should add that the whole point is to administer the tap in such a way as the child knows exactly what they did wrong.

I would think that would be self-evident, but some in this thread seem intent on twisting words around to something not intended. Not necessarily you, but some posters.

I would never deny that children need to be taught the difference between right and wrong, and sometimes quite firmly.
They need to be taught that there is a price to pay for breaking rules and laws etc and sometimes that means severe punishment - I'll always be amongst the first to say that.

However, some times a small amount of violence to combat a large amount of violence is acceptable.

But I've said it before and I passionately believe it that violence just breeds violence.

And its hypocritical to say that violence is wrong, that what 'you' have done is wrong so I'm going to commit an act of violence against you.

That may be the crux of our argument. When I spanked my children, I never saw what I was doing as violence upon them. I had no intention of hurting them, but as a responsible parent it was my duty to ensure that they didn't step outside the boundaries I had placed for them. Sometimes the best way is to remove access to a TV show; sometimes grounding works; sometimes just being sent to their room works (unless they have a "modern" room they don't want to leave anyway).

My son went through a period where he was starting to get into trouble in school, fighting mostly. I tried the spanking, and it had little lasting effect; he would be fine for a few days but then it would start up again. Finally, I noticed that his behavior had started about the time he started watching "Dragonball Z" on TV. I watched an episode while he was in school... pretty violent, centered around fighting. So that evening I announced that he was no longer allowed to watch "Dragonball Z."

Oh, man was he mad!

But, after less than a week, his behavior had improved considerably. So he was off the show for almost a year. Then one day he asked if he could watch it again, saying he had learned his lesson. So I relented. Within a week he got into another fight. This time he lost access as long as he remained at home.

I'm not condemning the show; it's pretty violent but it probably doesn't affect others like it did him either. I am just pointing out that the spankings weren't working so I had to find the cause and fix that. There are, as you say, plenty of ways to discipline... but every child is different and will only respond to the ways they respond to. To remove one method is to restrict all attempts at discipline.

In schools, there are limited means of disciplining a student. First attempt, in my day, was intimidation and maybe sending a note home. If that didn't work, there might be the threat of a spanking, or an actual spanking if circumstances warranted. Then came the suspension... a literal vacation for most students, but it forced the onus of discipline back on the parents at the risk of jeopardizing the child's education. Finally there was expulsion, only for the most serious infractions.

Very few children were ever suspended (although even then a parent could opt out of allowing corporal punishment; this simply meant suspension, though) and even less were expelled. Since almost all school age children were in school, being expelled meant the loss of friendships and condemned one to being a loner.

Now let's look at the present "discipline" in school:

First there is intimidation and sending a note home. Of course, since most parents don't really care, that only works in a minority of cases. The next step? It cant be a spanking or even the threat of a spanking... so the next step is suspension. But suspension, remember, was a way to get the parents to parent, and we can't have that! So instead of suspension, we have what is called around here "A-School" (for Alternative School, which is just a different school were all the troublemakers can compare notes). It is actually common for a child to move in and out of A-School, sometimes more than once in a single school year.

Then we are already at expulsion. That has become so common that it is no longer a sentence to loneliness and social outcast... it's a permanent vacation now with plenty of access to others who are also on permanent vacation. It upsets the parents because they lose their state-sponsored day care, but the kids don't seem to mind it... especially when it also comes with "street cred." So we get roving gangs of expelled kids, and every so often one of them realizes how badly being expelled screwed up their life and decides to get even with a gun.

That's what just removing corporal punishment did: it threw the entire disciplinary routine into chaos and made matters so much worse for so many children. Instead of a few minutes of a sore butt, now they get to have a lifetime of trouble. How exactly is that better for anyone?

I am lucky that my father was a good father and is to this day a good man and someone who I have enormous respect for.
He led by example.
His parenting countered my naturally rebellious streak and the violence I suffered at school - the most extreme of which he was unaware of till years later.
If it wasn't for him I suspect I would disappeared into a sickening cycle of violence and counter-violence.

I am glad you had that influence. It worked for you. But remember that the same punishment doesn't work for all children all the time. Would you deny the ability to avoid that "sickening cycle of violence and counter-violence" to another because a spanking was the only way they could avoid it?

I'll never win Father of the Year Awards.....but I never did too badly and I never once raised my hands to my daughter or my Grandson who lives with me.

Well, at least you're not arrogant about it. But I do question, why does your grandson have to live with you and not your daughter? I ask this not to condemn you, but to point out where you may have erred. Can you say for sure that there was never a time in all of her childhood where a spanking, just a light slap on the butt, might have made her have a future where she could raise her own child?

I agree that teachers no longer have the ability to discipline children.
That is yet another manifestation of the much deeper malaise that is eating away at our society.
But going back to beating children is most definitely NOT the answer.

Again, no one is advocating "beating" children. That is a misrepresentation of everything being said. We are talking about disciplining children using whatever method works, up to and including a paddling, to prevent them from failing to have a good life.

TheRedneck

a reply to: olaru12

slapping a kid in the face in the heat of anger is another matter entirely. How many of you disciplinarians have done that?

Never did that to my kids. Never had my father do it to me. Had someone else in authority ever done it to me, I shudder to think what my father would have done to them. If anyone in authority had ever done it to my kids, I shudder worse to know what I would have done to them.

Discipline is not done in the heat of emotion, nor is it ever intended, even if only momentarily, to harm the child.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Xtrozero

Never mind the defection.

So where are these ""Sharia law no-go zones"" in the UK?

Come on you made the claim back it up with some Qanonsense please.

I already have it figured out, there are no Sharia law no-go zones here in the UK.

People can go where ever they please as long as they don't act like complete trumpets.

a reply to: TheRedneck

Yeh you think hitting a one year old is ok, nope, never, its a baby.

47 and never had a situation yet that required a gun.

Why would you be impressed as to where i hail from?

Again you learn from the past you don't repeat it.

As to legacies well it's your nation that's tearing itself apart at the seams, not ours.

Your experiment is falling apart after only 246 years.

Nobody over here threatening civil war and violence down to one rule for some and another for you lord god Trump.

And you can take that one to the bank.

a reply to: Xtrozero

Kids will probably do as they please once they grow up with or without our permission to do so.

All we can do is bring them up to the best of our abilities and hope we manage to teach them right from wrong in the process.

People are more similar than diffrent Xtrozero thats just how we roll.

I would like to think my kids know what rights they have with me also.

But hitting children should be a last resort at all cost because as i said violence begets violence and monkey see monkey do.

As to what we say here well that's simply banter and debate.

a reply to: TheRedneck

I would think that would be self-evident, but some in this thread seem intent on twisting words around to something not intended.

You twist words.
Post a quote of where Freeborn mentions 'smack across face'.

This is what you wrote:

Again, no one is suggesting smacking a 2-year-old. You can

that nonsense right now. I am talking about a spat across the diaper. The fact that you equate that to a smack across the face is verification of what I thought: you were allowed to run wild until it was too late to be able to correct you.

a reply to: TheRedneck

... but the tap on the diaper that works when very young is simply not sufficient at older ages.

A corrective tap on a toddler is not the same as inflicting pain on a young child, a pre-teen or an adolescent.....nothing like it.

If one wishes to avoid the necessity of hard corporal punishment, the solution is to start young.

What, start beating them when they are young?
If one wishes to avoid the necessity of hard corporal punishment simply don't be a complete bastard and beat kids, its pretty #ing simple really.

.... but some in this thread seem intent on twisting words around to something not intended.

Would that include yourself?

However, some times a small amount of violence to combat a large amount of violence is acceptable.

Wrong...;It is wrong to be violent, you have been violent so I am going to commit an act of violence on you - no matter hw much spin people put on it it is hypocritical.

And violence begets violence.

When I spanked my children, I never saw what I was doing as violence upon them.

But it was violence, what else was it?

I had no intention of hurting them,.....

Then why do it, what was the point and purpose?
If you didn't mean to hurt them what did you mean to do?

I agree, alternative forms of punishment work far better than beating.....I know it did with me.
Grounding me was the worst thing possible.....and when my parents took my records and radio away from me it was a living toture. Far more of a deterrent than any beating.
Stuck alone in a room with just my own thoughts for company....it wasn't good.
I still overthink and over analyse things.
But I did learn to love reading.

"Dragonball Z."

My Grandson loves it....I don't think he's had a fight in his life.

To remove one method is to restrict all attempts at discipline.

I'd tend to agree with that, apart from beating.
Beating a child is more of a reflection of the failings of the ADULT doing the beating than it is of the failings of the CHILD receiving the beating.

There are plenty of other effective ways of disciplining a child other than beating them.

But I do question, why does your grandson have to live with you and not your daughter?

What the fcuk has that got to do with you?
It has nothing to do with the topic under discussion I can assure you!

Again, no one is advocating "beating" children.

I'm sorry, I know you aren't advocating beating children for the sake of it or inflicting terrible pain upon children.
I honestly get that.
But no amount of spin and sugar coating will alter the fact that it is still BEATING CHILDREN and just helps perpetuates the cycle of violence.

There are far better ways to discipline children.

a reply to: Freeborn

What the fcuk has that got to do with you?
It has nothing to do with the topic under discussion I can assure you!

Is it an attempt at beating you?

a reply to: JAGStorm

Cheers for the kind words JAGStorm.

Aye, it's still a bit raw if I'm honest, just trying to plod on and help my we maw sort everything out and arrange funerals and contact friends and family.

He will be sorely missed.

Sorry to hear about your own parents.

Fact of the matter is we are probably at that age when the world stops giving us things and starts taking them away.

Such is life i suppose, simply have to make the best of it and remember the good times.

a reply to: Freeborn

A corrective tap on a toddler is not the same as inflicting pain on a young child, a pre-teen or an adolescent.....nothing like it.

Oh, but it is. In both cases it is a perceived threat. That tap on a diaper does just as much good (more, actually, based on the situation) than inflicting pain.

The threat of violence is more effective a deterrent than violence itself. But for the threat to exist, it must be known that the possibility of violence exists... even if it does not actually exist.

What, start beating them when they are young?

Here you go again. In your past post, you apologized for insinuating that I beat my kids. I accepted that apology and replied based on that apology. Now you do it again. Is this some sort of game for you? See how many times you can insult me before I get tired and go away?

I'm not your adversary in this debate; reality is.

If one wishes to avoid the necessity of hard corporal punishment simply don't be a complete bastard and beat kids, its pretty #ing simple really.

No, it's not that simple. One either controls their children and teaches them right from wrong, or one does not. That's how simple it is.

But it was violence, what else was it?

Then why do it, what was the point and purpose?
If you didn't mean to hurt them what did you mean to do?

D I S C I P L I N E !

Why is it so hard to get that through to you?

Grounding me was the worst thing possible.....and when my parents took my records and radio away from me it was a living toture. Far more of a deterrent than any beating.

So your parents tortured you? Those are your words. See, I can play your little game, too.

My Grandson loves it....I don't think he's had a fight in his life.

Good for him. I stated clearly that the show was a problem for my son only. Children are all different, and all require different approaches.

I'd tend to agree with that, apart from beating.
Beating a child is more of a reflection of the failings of the ADULT doing the beating than it is of the failings of the CHILD receiving the beating.

You prefer to torture them? You just said grounding is torture.

There are plenty of other effective ways of disciplining a child other than beating them.

Toss them in solitary confinement, maybe? How long? Maybe a couple of years? Let's lock them in the closet... nice and dark in there, make them really know what torture is. Amirite?

Yeah, turn them into social outcasts. No contact with the outside world. No friends. Bread and water in a dark hole.

What the fcuk has that got to do with you?

Oh, did I hit a nerve?

I guess I should have been locked in a closet more growing up.

I'm sorry, I know you aren't advocating beating children for the sake of it or inflicting terrible pain upon children.
I honestly get that.

I don't think you do. You keep saying you get it, but then you go right back to the same rhetoric.

You either get the difference between beating and discipline, or you don't. Pick one.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Itisnowagain

I'm genuinely curious: do you think Freeborn and I are the only posters in this thread?

You must, since you interpreted "some posters" to mean "Freeborn." Is your screen broken?

TheRedneck

a reply to: andy06shake

Let's see...

• Start off with an insult and mischaracterization... check
  
  
• Brag about an unrelated subject you originally brought up... check
  
  
• Make another attempt to twist the subject away form the issue... check
  
  
• Make some generalized statement that ignores the rest of the conversation... check
  
  
• Lash out about an unrelated subject you brought up... check
  
  
• Reference a politician in order to make another insult... check
  
  
• Finish with a generalized form of "I'm right and you're wrong"... check

You really managed to get all the checkboxes filled and still never said one word relevant to the subject. Boris, is that you?

TheRedneck