Pay No Attention to the Man Behind the Curtain! Alleged Super-Skeptic Tells All!

I can;t say I'm"on message" with these people however, to deny they work like beavers, with all their organs and extremities intact,, to try and tie down what causes these mutilations would be a a falsehood. I've watched a fiar few few presentations on "mutilations" and so far, my abiding memory is this. "The wizened cattle rancher looknig at the scientist who is proud of their explanation and asking. "Now that's all well and good, now could you explain how that all happened in 3 hours, not the week it took your carcass to look like that and bare in mind, with my cattle, there ain't no blood left to pool and there ain't no blood on the ground round them". ...........

reply to post by IsaacKoi
I'm working through the materials, but it does seem that Moore and Doty support each others stories in the main details of how and why Bennewitz--already a little prone to fantastic extrapolations--was targeted in such a mentally devastating way.

While neither are the most trustworthy, it fits all the major points. If so, a rather telling example of an official government intelligence org--AFOSI--deliberately using and even PROMOTING UFOS/Aliens.

I mean AFOSI and Doty might have been hiding a UFO reality, but sadly, in this case, top secret technology makes the most sense.

However, if those are pics of flying aerial objects/phenomenon from Bennewitz, then that is some pretty impressive top secret shizzle! Then again, looking at it like that we may be in possession of alien technology after all

Originally posted by The GUT
While I find Skinwalker Ranch interesting, it falls more into the paranormal range, eh? If we link Skinwalker to UFO phenomenon in any way, then we have to admit we are moving into the Vallee and Keel end of the spectrum, no?

However, I can't buy the Skinwalker materials as of yet. I am interested in Bigelow and his relation to the UFO/Paranormal arena as well as his connections to the CIA and such.

Yeah. Everything about Skinwalker Ranch is strange.
It puzzles me why they closed down NIDS and NIDSci.org. It costs virtually nothing to keep a website going.

Originally posted by BullwinkleKicksButt

Originally posted by The GUT
While I find Skinwalker Ranch interesting, it falls more into the paranormal range, eh? If we link Skinwalker to UFO phenomenon in any way, then we have to admit we are moving into the Vallee and Keel end of the spectrum, no?

However, I can't buy the Skinwalker materials as of yet. I am interested in Bigelow and his relation to the UFO/Paranormal arena as well as his connections to the CIA and such.

Yeah. Everything about Skinwalker Ranch is strange.
It puzzles me why they closed down NIDS and NIDSci.org. It costs virtually nothing to keep a website going.

Everything Bigelow does seems designed to benefit Bigelow. From the acquisition of MUFON (or just their highly valuable database), to the NIDS/Skinwalker Ranch research, it seems that most of the information acquired by Bigelow and his shadowy associates flows in one direction, and one direction only.

I believe that the closer ties between the Dept of Defense and NASA (2009/2010) may also extend to Bigelow and his company. It would not surprise me if Bigelow has decided that NIDS has served its purpose (just as MUFON did, and then their funding dried up), but I've no doubt that any scientists still of use would be retained, perhaps under a different moniker or acronym.

As with intellligence and the military, everything is on a 'need to know basis'. If Bigelow is part of some secretive triumverate with NASA and the DOD, perhaps it has been decided the public has no right to know, hence the disappearance of the website, and NIDS itself, at least in what was its then public incarnation. Nothing to do with money and everything to do with the increased militarization of space, and the restricted availability of reliable information to independent UFOologists and researchers.

It seems very conspiratorial, and I think Bigelow is deeply involved in a major choke-point where certain highly valuable intelligence may have been received (but perhaps not understood), and it is likely to be kept covert, as so much that falls under the aegis of military intelligence, in these shadowy times in which we dwell.

My suspicion, however, is that our government is just about as clueless as we are on what the phenomenon is.

reply to post by The GUT


The GUT, I fully agree with your suspicion.

As Winston Churchill wrote: "In wartime, truth is so precious that she should always be attended by a bodyguard of lies"

The "bodyguard of lies" are responsible to "the powers that be" up a chain-of-command by-passing and un-accountable to the highest level of public government.

To paraphrase Haldane's quote; "The UFO phenomena are not only stranger than we imagine, they are stranger than we can imagine".

Try to imagine being "the powers that be" in charge of the UFO phenomena...the ultimate decision makers.

What you are dealing with are:
"nuts and bolts" craft that can fly circles around the most advanced of earth's warplanes;
and most disconcertingly,
"unearthly" psychological operations that reduce our experts to the level of children playing in a sandbox. Psyops literally beyond human comprehension.

As the man-in-charge of the UFO phenomena, accountable to the highest level of "the powers that be", the ultimate questions are:
Who are they? Why are they here? What do they want?

If they had wanted to conquer us...to take over earth, they could have easily done so long ago. Or do they have a long-term agenda?

As you suspect, The GUT, "the powers that be" are clueless.

That is why "Disclosure", the "Holy Grail" of Ufology, will never happen unless the extra-terrestrials or inter-dimensionals or extra-dimensionals or whatever they are initiate it first.

How can the "powers that be" disclose what they do not comprehend.
How can the "powers that be" disclose that which they have no defense against.
How can the "powers that be" disclose their fundamental fear of the unknown.

Originally posted by MildBill
...As you suspect, The GUT, "the powers that be" are clueless.

That is why "Disclosure", the "Holy Grail" of Ufology, will never happen unless the extra-terrestrials or inter-dimensionals or extra-dimensionals or whatever they are initiate it first.

How can the "powers that be" disclose what they do not comprehend.
How can the "powers that be" disclose that which they have no defense against.
How can the "powers that be" disclose their fundamental fear of the unknown.

Great post, MildBill, if'n you ask me. All of it.

Originally posted by The GUT
reply to post by Harte

 

Well that was quite a reply. Do you know of any government contracts to purchase such cattle? Or of the number--if any--of universities that have cattle populations from the time of the last atomic blast tests? Besides we're talking about mixing testing with cover for the possible top secret craft of the sort Bennewitz apparently took pics of.

I mean yeah, cattle mutilations might be a myth. But, then again, some of the cases are hard to ignore.

If you want to consider these cattle mutilations/thefts as some sort of extraterrestrial event, it's no skin off my nose.

I don't, but I probably would if I witnessed it (but, then again, maybe not - I'm pretty cynical!)

Either way, whether the Govt. buys cattle in the manner you mention is completely beside the point. My point is, they can do so, perfectly legally, and with not a single question asked.

So, why would they fly in at night and steal them? Are you implying that they're testing because of something that happened that people in the area don't know about?

There are far easier, less risky, and more legal means for them to do so you know. They could drum up some anthrax claim and confiscate entire herds, with compensation for the rancher, and no doubts would be raised.

Of course, they could just send in crews to take samples after creating an anthrax scare as well, but that wouldn't be as nefarious as most around here consider the government to be, so I went for the more dramatic scenario first.

Sneaking in and just absconding with the herd like old time cattle rustlers runs the very real risk of getting caught in the act, which would be a completely idiotic thing to have happen, given what I stated above.

ETs, on the other hand, may have acquired a taste for tenderloin. Couldn't say I blame them, if that were the case.

Harte

Originally posted by FireMoon
I can;t say I'm"on message" with these people however, to deny they work like beavers, with all their organs and extremities intact,, to try and tie down what causes these mutilations would be a a falsehood. I've watched a fiar few few presentations on "mutilations" and so far, my abiding memory is this. "The wizened cattle rancher looknig at the scientist who is proud of their explanation and asking. "Now that's all well and good, now could you explain how that all happened in 3 hours, not the week it took your carcass to look like that and bare in mind, with my cattle, there ain't no blood left to pool and there ain't no blood on the ground round them". ...........

@25:40
All 30 seals decapitated between the same vertebrae without any blade cuts found on the bones
Very interesting

In a thread that discusses Jim Oberg, government disinformation and the cast of the Aviary (William Moore, Richard Doty etc), I think it's worth embedding the 1988 TV show "UFO Cover Up Live", presented by Mike Farrell.

This is the show in which a supposed member of the intelligence community, "Falcon", revealed that the favourite snack of alien visitors to Earth is strawberry ice-cream - see 1 hour 15 minutes into the show, shortly before Jim Oberg's appearance.

Bill Moore appears a few times in the show, as does "Falcon". The main section in which Moore discusses MJ-12 and his contacts with government agents is just after 1 hour 2 minutes into the show.

Jim Oberg puts in an appearance just after 1 hour 20 minutes into the show.

Robert Emenegger tells his tale just after 50 minutes into the show (with Paul Shartle, the person that told Emenegger about supposed film footage of aliens emerging from a craft at Holloman Air Force Base).




(Warning: The show is pretty bad...)

References to discussion of this show in a couple of dozen UFO books are given in a table at:
www.isaackoi.com...

There is a partial transcript of the show at:
hawkquest.tripod.com...

Narrator:
We asked what they looked like, you know a run of the mill EBE.

Falcon:
The creature about three foot four to three foot eight inches tall.
Their eyes are extremely large, almost insect in style. Their eyes have a
couple of different inner lids, their days are extremely bright,
probable twice to three times as bright as our sun I think, they have just
two openings where our nose should be, and a small mouth. They have no
teeth as we know it. They have a hard gum like area. Their internal organs
are quite simple, they have a one organ which does the job of our heart and
lungs. Their digestive system is really simple. Their skin structure is
extremely -- very elastic skin and hard. Probably hardened from their sun.
They have some basic organs - their brain is more complex than ours.
It has several different lobes than ours has. Their eyes are --- where our
eyes are controlled by the back of our head, theirs is controlled by the
front of the brain. Their hearing is quite better than ours, almost better
than a dog's. Small ears. Their sexual organs are --- they have males and
females. Their kidney and bladder is one organ. They excrete waste.
They have another organ, which I don't know our science has determined
what it was for, but they believe it is to transfer solid wastes into liquid
wastes. They have hands without thumbs, and four fingers without any thumbs.
Their feet are web-like, small, web-like.

Narrator:
So many questions occur, do they believe in a supreme being, what's their
intelligence level, what's their average life span?

Falcon:
It's approximately 350 to 400 earth years, it's my understanding that the
aliens have an IQ of over 200. They have a religion but it's a universal
religion, they believe in the universe as a supreme being.
The aliens enjoy music, all types of music, but especially ancient
Tibetan style music.

Narrator:
We asked about their diet.

Falcon:
They do eat vegetables. They like vegetables and their favourite dish
or snack, is ice cream, especially strawberry.

reply to post by IsaacKoi

I may be getting things mixed up, but I thought the Falcon and Condor video material was from a tape by Bill Moore that he'd been privately circulating for maybe a year before the show. I remember reading Jim Moseley talking about Moore showing it to him. If this is not the same taped material, it would be interesting to see this tape.

Moore had a little UFO franchise going which continued after his 1989 self-outing as a "double-agent". He continued to publish and distribute some material and went on to edit a very breif run of "Far Out" magazine. I'm unclear exactly why and when he severed his ties with the UFO community. Maybe Greg Bishop would have some details on that split.

One more matter about UFO Cover- Up Live, if Jim Oberg is still reading. I understand the show participants had their travel expenses compensated, but was their a payment for appearing on the program itself?

reply to post by IsaacKoi

Finished the Moore/MUFON speech. I have skimmed through UFO Cover Up Live before, but mostly relied on what others had written about it and transcript excerpts. So I guess I need to watch it start to finish, which I'm doing and taking notes. The call-in CE1-CE4 phone lines were interesting. Get some info make a buck-a-call too!

I also just read Robert Hasting's reply circa '96 to Mj-12, Moore, etc. that came up when searching for rebuttals. I know who Hastings is. He doesn't really catch and hold my attention to often, but for anyone interested in the finer details of this discussion, it is certainly worth a read.

The more I look at the mini-pop culture cast of characters who make up modern "ufology," the more apt I am to think that Jim Mosely was right: Sit back and laugh at the sideshow and wait for the one or two that come along who are worth listening to.

I hope to make clear that I know that we've had ufologists of immense character who have contributed greatly, but I refer here to what I call our Pop-Ufologists. I bet a lot of y'all know what I mean by pop-ufologist. I bet half of 'em, at least, were named in the Moore-Mufon Speech

So then the thought hit me that the stars of the skeptic arena are probably, if nothing else, in all actuality, necessary for the mental-health, as it were, of ufology.

There has to be some break from all the petty jealousies and backbiting. That's where folk like Phil Klass, or to a lesser degree Jim Oberg--are truly and mercifully useful: The ufologists can stop despising each other for a minute and all agree to focus on despising the skeptics/cynics.

Of course, that was then, this is now right?

Last I checked Moore and Doty were considered disinformation agents, people not to be trusted? I think Robert Hastings who paid ATS a visit said it. So why bother mentioning those two?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Ah there it was, though the details of why they are disinfo were on another site posted by Hastings in that thread.

Originally posted by ImpactoR
Last I checked Moore and Doty were considered disinformation agents, people not to be trusted? I think Robert Hastings who paid ATS a visit said it. So why bother mentioning those two?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

It's because Moore and Doty are the best known examples of people that have claimed to have been involved in official UFO disinformation campaigns that we are bothering mentioning them (and relevant material/documents) in this thread on (alleged) official UFO disinformation campaigns.

Originally posted by CardDown
I may be getting things mixed up, but I thought the Falcon and Condor video material was from a tape by Bill Moore that he'd been privately circulating for maybe a year before the show. I remember reading Jim Moseley talking about Moore showing it to him. If this is not the same taped material, it would be interesting to see this tape.

Do you happen to have a reference to that discussion by Jim Moseley?

I've just quickly skimmed through 28 references to Falcon in Jim Moseley's Saucer Smear publication and 143 references to Doty. There are quite a few discussions of the Falcon and Condor, but they all seem to be in relation to the UFO Cover-Up Live documentary I embedded above, rather than referring to any tape privately circulated by Bill Moore. As I say, I've only had a quick skim through the results of a search of Saucer Smear, so I may have missed something.

By the way, the Saucer Smear references to Doty includes references to correspondence received from Doty. (Saucer Smear also refers to long items received from related persons of interest, e.g. Todd Zechel). Do you happen to know who now has Jim's papers?

Isaac, I lucked out and quickly located the passage just by searching for Saucer Smear+ Bill Moore+ videotape.
There's no mention of codenames, Falcon or Condor, but it sounds similar:

There are also several videotapes. We were allowed to see one 20-minute
tape and most of another. These consist of a supposed agent talking in a tot-
ally disguised voice, answering a list of questions from a supposed newsman.
The agent is disguised, and the newsman has his back to the camera. The prov-
en identities of these two are known to Moore and Shandera, they say. No one
was present at the tapings except these two, plus Moore, Shandera, and the
producer.

www.ufo-bbs.com...

This online version does not carry the original Saucer smear issue number and date, but reading it again, it sure sounds like Jim was just shown the taped Falcon and Condor material before it was used in the otherwise live broadcast.

Jim routinely sent his material to be archived by Tom Benson. I'll email you with his information.

Is there any chance this Falcon guy is the old dying man that appeared during the Citizens Hearing?

Originally posted by ImpactoR
Last I checked Moore and Doty were considered disinformation agents, people not to be trusted? I think Robert Hastings who paid ATS a visit said it. So why bother mentioning those two?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Ah there it was, though the details of why they are disinfo were on another site posted by Hastings in that thread.

During the coast to coast interview Richard Doty admits to being a counter intelligence specialist, but now retired has left that all behind. He even goes as far as trying to apologise to Linda.

reply to post by BullwinkleKicksButt

Is there any chance this Falcon guy is the old dying man that appeared during the Citizens Hearing?

According to Greg Bishop,(who was told by Moore) the Falcon was OSS and CIA veteran Harry August Rositzke (who was already deceased by the time of the announcement a little over a year ago)...

One of the numerous podcasts with Greg talking about it...radiomisterioso.com...

Originally posted by The GUT
Not Doty's FBI file, but I would REALLY like to see the records mentioned below by Greg Bishop:

...Some of you may remember Walter’s background includes stints as in the FBI and the Air Force Office of Special Investigations. In the last part of the show, we looked at Sgt. Richard Doty’s Air Force record (sent to me recently by researcher Alejandro Rojas) and discussed the implications of this legally released material.

Radio Misterioso Greg Bishop

Okay...

I've been in touch with Alejandro Rojas. He promptly emailed me those documents and has now kindly made them available at the link below:
www....(nolink)/wp-content/uploads/Doty-Service-Records.pdf

Mmm. The link will not display properly because the PDF is on the Open Minds TV website and it seems that ATS is still preventing the posting of links to that website.

As I recently posted in another thread, I think the inability to post links to that website is a shame, since several interesting items have appeared on the Open Minds TV website in the last few years (including an archive of APRO journals and a few other treats), particularly in posts by veteran ufologist Antonio Huneeus.

If discussion on ATS is to be as informed and well-referenced as most of us would (I think) like to see, it would be helpful if we could include links to articles and resources on the Open Minds TV website.

I've also obtained some other relevant documents from another researcher (Lee Graham) and he's told me that he is happy for me to share them. I'll try to find the time to post some of those documents tomorrow.

Work on finishing my very long thread on Steven Greer will have to wait yet another day/week...

Originally posted by ImpactoR
Last I checked Moore and Doty were considered disinformation agents, people not to be trusted? I think Robert Hastings who paid ATS a visit said it. So why bother mentioning those two?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Ah there it was, though the details of why they are disinfo were on another site posted by Hastings in that thread.

Okay. A link worth checking. Thanks, ImpactoR. It will be interesting to see Hastings 2009 report after just having read the one I linked above from '96.

However, as has been pointed out, Doty, associates thereof, and Moore are germane to this OP topic. Peace.