Pay No Attention to the Man Behind the Curtain! Alleged Super-Skeptic Tells All!

Originally posted by IsaacKoi
If discussion on ATS is to be as informed and well-referenced as most of us would (I think) like to see, it would be helpful if we could include links to articles and resources on the Open Minds TV website.

It is a shame because in this instant at least, as I understand it, is that these service records of Doty exist and were legally obtained, am I correct, Isaac?

I've also obtained some other relevant documents from another researcher (Lee Graham) and he's told me that he is happy for me to share them. I'll try to find the time to post some of those documents tomorrow.

Work on finishing my very long thread on Steven Greer will have to wait yet another day/week...

Looking forward to all of that. Thank you for all the great work and documentation you've shared here. That takes time and is a great source of continued education for me and others who pursue it

Originally posted by Toxicsurf
According to Greg Bishop,(who was told by Moore) the Falcon was OSS and CIA veteran Harry August Rositzke (who was already deceased by the time of the announcement a little over a year ago)...

One of the numerous podcasts with Greg talking about it...radiomisterioso.com...

As I have come to understand it, Toxic, Rositzke may have been the original "Falcon" but that Doty was the character known as Falcon on UFO Cover Up.

That is an important distinction to be aware of if true.

Originally posted by The GUT
these service records of Doty exist and were legally obtained, am I correct, Isaac?

Yes.

They aren't very detailed but they provide some details.

Originally posted by CardDown
Isaac, I lucked out and quickly located the passage just by searching for Saucer Smear+ Bill Moore+ videotape.
There's no mention of codenames, Falcon or Condor, but it sounds similar:
...
www.ufo-bbs.com...

Thanks for the link. It does indeed sound very similar.

So, Bill Moore and Shandera probably had a copy of the "Falcon" material filmed for the relevant segment of the show (which, it seems, may be longer than the material actually aired in the show).

Incidentally, the material in that "SAUCER SMEAR ONLINE #7" isn't in the official Saucer Smear archive (or on the official Saucer Smear website www.martiansgohome.com...).

I'll have to try to find other issues of ""SAUCER SMEAR ONLINE" to add to the Saucer Smear collection.

A few quick searches have so far found:

APRIL SAUCER SMEAR ONLINE:
www.ufo-bbs.com...

SAUCER SMEAR ONLINE #6:
www.ufo-bbs.com...

Following Isaac's links, I found the following excerpt from...

Source Anatomy of a Hoax: The Philadelphia Experiment Fifty Years Later
JACQUES F. VALLE (PDF)...interesting in light of this discussion:

…Even more remarkable is the fact that some hoaxes tend to acquire a life of their own, and continue to be invested with believability among the public even when overwhelming negative data eventually create unanimous agree- ment among specialists about their lack of substance. This makes the work of the researcher vastly complicated, not only because the field becomes heavily tainted by the unreliability of these stories, but because one has to spend an inordinate amount of time explaining the situation to outsiders and dispelling prior misconceptions.

From a sociological point of view, however, hoaxes are quite interesting. They provide rich insights into the preconceptions of both believers and skeptics. They illuminate the motivations of the authors of the plot and the eagerness of the spectators.

For any hoax to succeed it has to be believable and relevant. Those that endure, resisting even the absolute proof, the definitive exposure of the culprits and their methods, are endowed with additional qualities. They resonate with deep-seated imagery in the minds of the masses and of the educated public.

They never fail to generate high ratings on prime time. They touch all of us, whether or not we like to admit it. Their victims are as likely to be found among the highly educated, even the scientifically trained, as they are among the masses. In the words of Norman Mailer, "if lying is an art, then fine lying is a fine art" (Mailer, 1991)…

reply to post by The GUT


You guys are just going to town with this thread! I am trying to keep up with this and others and am happy to say that there is almost too much to read on here lately. I don't know how you guys have any time to participate. Thanks for the link, now I have more to read! Really, I think it looks very interesting!

Robert Hastings certainly deserves a hand for his early role in helping unravel all of this Doty-Moore-Bennewitz ugliness. I hear Mr. Hastings has himself been experiencing some heat from other researchers these days in regards some of the assertions he made ala UFOS over missile bases. Vicious field at times.

Anyways, no doubt he's a bright guy, and while I might interpret what was being hid by the disinformation campaign differently than he does, I find the summation of thoughts to be indicative that official government programs have been initiated--at least at AFOSI level--that included promoting and feeding fake stories of extraterrestrials into the UFO community. Or at least to Bennewitz, who in turn leaked details into the community.

Which all pretty much agrees with Greg Bishop in Project Beta: The Story of Paul Bennewitz, National Security, and the Creation of a Modern UFO Myth

Mr. Hastings' excerpts:

Hmmm, where to begin? I guess I should mention that my ground-breaking 1989 paper “The MJ-12 Affair: Facts, Questions, Comments” first brought to light UFO researcher Bill Moore’s now-notorious, voluntary involvement in the disinformation and spying operation being run out of Kirtland AFB’s Office of Special Investigations (OSI) in the 1980s..


…By July, Moore, undoubtedly sensing the inevitable, finally relented and delivered what has naively come to be known as his “confession” speech to a stunned audience attending MUFON’s International Symposium in Las Vegas. In keeping with the overall situation, Moore’s mea culpa was a combination of fact, disinformation and outright lies.

True, Moore did spill the beans on the spying and disinfo op being run out of Kirtland AFB’s OSI, and his willing participation in it, but he also threw in a bunch of bull—some of it relating to myself, given that my paper had effectively forced his revelations—and generally excused his own abhorrent behavior as justifiable, because it supposedly served a greater purpose.

In other words, while Moore did admit that he had agreed to act as a spy and disinformation agent, targeting other researchers on Doty’s behalf, he left out a lot of relevant facts, and also twisted much of what he divulged to make him look as good as possible under such disgraceful circumstances—saying that he had merely been playing along with Doty so that he could get inside the disinfo operation, as deeply as possible, and hopefully learn the real facts about UFOs from the low-level OSI agent and those to whom he reported...

www.theufochronicles.com...

So, we have two accomplished researchers, one can possibly be considered friendly towards Moore (Bishop) and one, Hastings, who definitely ain't no respecter of William 'Bill' Moore, coming to much the same conclusion.

The big questions that seem to remain are how high--or not--past Richard Doty did this official disinformation campaign against Bennewitz go?

What was being hidden: Top-secret terrestrial technology or Top-secret extraterrestrial technology?

And, lastly, what other motives might be lurking 'round the edge of all this?

reply to post by The GUT


I'll give you this.

I have busted JimO's chop's over the years. But he has seemed like a straight shooter and answering what he actually believes to be true when questioned.

I wouldn't call him a shill at all. Informed? Absolutely. Skeptical of the majority of stuff on ATS? Rightfully so. But no shill.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


No, Oberg is definitely not a shill.

2nd

Originally posted by cuckooold
reply to post by EarthCitizen07

 

I'm curious as to what evidence there is of any DUMBs. As Vallee said, "Where does their waste go?", and one would imagine such a facility would have a thermal image that could be detected via satellite. I personally find the Dulce story to be very sensationalist and I question the validity of personas such as Phil Schneider and Thomas Castello. Schneider is a guy with quite extraordinary claims, and I don't believe that Thomas Castello has ever been proven to be a real human.

There are two things which don't make me completely disregard the idea; the fact that Bennewitz believed there was a facility gives me pause, and a thread here on ATS where someone mapped out seismic disturbances during Project Gasbuggy, which look suspicious to my untrained mind. As to whether an underground facility could be 'hollowed out' with underground nuclear explosions is beyond any geological understanding I possess.

As skeptical as I am, I'm not 100% willing to disregard the possibility of some underground facility at Dulce, although I would be more inclined to accept the existence of an underground U.S military base rather than a combined military/Grey/Reptilian facility.

Nuclear Tunnel Boring Machine patents have been developed by LANL going back to the late 60s but are apparently heavily classified. The reason for keeping them classified should be obvious to any conspiracy theorist worth their salt.

These machines melt the ground into liquid form and this in turn is used as linning for the big tunnel projects. This way there is no muck left to deal with. With conventional TBMs you need a rail system to haul the muck out of the tunnel. The nuclear/electric TBM can achieve a few miles of penetration versus a few dozen feet per day.

It is also said that nuclear detonations can be used to hollow out underground sites fast and cheapely. I don't think the radiation levels remain high for very long. Just look at hiroshima, nagasaki, and all the nuclear tests done at the nevada test site. Gamma radiation is the most dangerous but its lifespan is relatively short, a few days to a week I believe. Alpha and Beta radiation is the hard residue of the detonation and must be cleaned out pyhsically by trained and protected crew.

I think there is something fishy going on in dulce new mexico and area 51. There are numerous whistleblowers that collaborate the same stories with their own twist. Yes some have died and some remain unaccounted for. Normally when you are in deep # the government erases your history like school and work records. They give you a new name, new id, etc. That is if they dont outright kill you.

Originally posted by cuckooold
reply to post by EarthCitizen07

 

I'm curious as to what evidence there is of any DUMBs. As Vallee said, "Where does their waste go?", and one would imagine such a facility would have a thermal image that could be detected via satellite.

A thermal image from space, you mean infrared signature? I really don't think that is possible for two reasons

a)infrared cannot penetrate 100 feet into the ground from anywhere, especially not from space. You need to conduct an underground cavity test with specialised equipment on the surface, like they use to test for oil and gas deposits. Seismograph testing comes to mind....

b)the government would keep that information classified just like they keep nuclear tunnel boring machine classified.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by The GUT

 

I'll give you this.

I have busted JimO's chop's over the years. But he has seemed like a straight shooter and answering what he actually believes to be true when questioned.

I wouldn't call him a shill at all. Informed? Absolutely. Skeptical of the majority of stuff on ATS? Rightfully so. But no shill.

Yep, o' fat furry one from the land o' the big, Jim had to earn my respect too. But I must say that he has.

He's a tad more fond on his ultimate abilities of logic than I find he should be at times, but, yeah, overall, he's a bright guy and an asset imo.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by The GUT

 

I'll give you this.

I have busted JimO's chop's over the years. But he has seemed like a straight shooter and answering what he actually believes to be true when questioned.

I wouldn't call him a shill at all. Informed? Absolutely. Skeptical of the majority of stuff on ATS? Rightfully so. But no shill.

I am no fan of james o'berg after he gave richard hoagland a hard time. I think he is OR WAS a shill at some point. That does not mean people don't change their minds eventually. If he has then good for him and I look forward to him helping the truth movement. It can use all the help it can get!

Originally posted by ImpactoR
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Ah there it was, though the details of why they are disinfo were on another site posted by Hastings in that thread.

ImpactoR was right on. The thread he linked does contain some goodies. Including Gabe Valdez, Jr who I'm liking so far.

And Kandinsky brings it to the table, too.

CardDown: I also saw some posts from Chris Lambright the author of X Descending at that link as well as yourself. I did like what he had to say and I'm glad I have his Kindle version downloaded and ready to start reading soon. Thanks.

Originally posted by IsaacKoi
Richard Doty briefly refers to disinformation during his relatively rare interview on a C2C show (about Project Serpo) on 6 December 2005 with Bill Ryan.
...
grayking7.blogspot.co.uk...

Doty gave more details on an earlier Coast to Coast show, with Greg Bishop, on Sunday 27 February 2005.
...
grayking7.blogspot.co.uk...

As I've elsewhere, I tend to prefer books and articles to podcasts - but sometimes I like to hear the voice of the relevant person. Also, sometimes the relevant person has not provided a detailed written account of their own.

Turning to podcasts relating to Bill Moore (or William Moore, if you prefer), Greg Bishop has done several interviews him Moore over the years. Those interviews are spread about a bit, so I've tried to pull them together into a chronological list. There may well be more.

(I'll probably get in touch with Greg at some point about issues arising from his book - but I haven't really got started yet on issues relating to the Aviary etc...).

2004 - William Moore interview by Greg Bishop: 8th August 2004:
Scroll down to 15 December 2008 entry at:
radiomisterioso.com...

2005a - Radio Misterioso: Bill Moore: UFOS, MJ-12, and Paul Bennewitz : 2 February 2005
www.radio4all.net...

2005b - Radio Misterioso: Bill Moore on UFOs and Government Disinformation : 24 March 2005
www.radio4all.net...

2006 - William Moore interview by Greg Bishop recorded on 10th December of 2006:
Scroll down to 2 April 2012 entry at:
radiomisterioso.com...



(There is also a non-UFO discussion, involving William Moore and others discussing the Book of Mormon, at:
radiomisterioso.com...)

Originally posted by IsaacKoi
[As I've elsewhere, I tend to prefer books and articles to podcasts - but sometimes I like to hear the voice of the relevant person. Also, sometimes the relevant person has not provided a detailed written account of their own.

I agree, and sometimes its good to see if they can convey the information convincingly. I don't mean judging them as a performer, but that's an interesting tangent. For instance Peter Gersten and Ken Storch both got basic facts wrong when discussing the Cash-Landrum case, stuff like the date and who was who. I just can't trust them with the meatier elements after that.

As it happens, I heard a recording of radio broadcast of Bill Moore discussing the same case on a of a 1983 radio program in response to a listener question. Moore swept in and told an excellent summary of the case making only a minor mistake (and also overstating his own relationship to the case i.e. "original investigator"). Moore came off as knowledgeable, polished and professional. After listening to him so convincingly discuss events he had only second-hand knowledge of, I'd have no idea, if, and when he was lying.

Originally posted by The GUT

As I have come to understand it, Toxic, Rositzke may have been the original "Falcon" but that Doty was the character known as Falcon on UFO Cover Up.

That is an important distinction to be aware of if true.

Originally posted by IsaacKoi

So, Bill Moore and Shandera probably had a copy of the "Falcon" material filmed for the relevant segment of the show (which, it seems, may be longer than the material actually aired in the show).

Have either of you two read Exempt from Disclosure by Bob Collins and Rick Doty? I don't recommend it, it's very poorly written, but I just happened to read this paragraph the other night that confirms both things you've mentioned above.

September 1988

Interviews were needed for the upcoming October 1988 UFO show. We all met in Albuquerque, NM where Bill and Jaime shot an interview with the surrogate Falcon (Rick Doty), and they also shot an interview with me (Condor). They also shot an interview with Richard Doty as just ‘Special OSI Agent’ Rick Doty who was just leaving the Air Force. Ultimately, Rick’s unmasked interview did not make it to the “UFO Cover-Up Live” show since all of the interviews were running over their time limit. The show finally aired on October 14, 1988 and, as we found out later, the phones were burning off the hook in Washington D.C. Almost immediately, Bill and Jaime had two new high-level contacts that had approached them. They were aware of these individuals before and introductions were immediately arranged. There were now two new birds in the Aviary.

If you'd like a .PDF copy of the book just U2U me.

reply to post by IsaacKoi
Okay, I finally finished UFO Cover Up Live and, yeah, it was pretty bad. Certainly, however, worthwhile to this thread topic, as well as a bit of ufological history/lore that certainly should be experienced for one's self.

Until any such proof to the contrary turns up, I am gonna hold Bill Moore accountable for a statement he made about the identity of "Falcon." The reason I propose to hold him accountable is because he stated it in public, on camera, and on national television. In front of all of us, basically. It comes right about 1:03:00

Moore agrees that the TV show Falcon is THE Falcon they had been acquiring intel from. I think it's fairly common knowledge and rather indisputable at this point that the "Falcon" on UFO Cover Up Live has been proven to be Rick Doty.

Doty's partial service record, btw, acquired by Alejandro Rojas, and which IsaccKoi can provide the link to, show Doty retired from active military service as a Master Sargeant September 30, 1988---the same year as UFO Cover Up Live aired.

Maybe Bill Moore just don't wanna admit he was taken in by a mere Master Sargeant? Not that I don't think Doty wasn't being supervised, I definitely do.



I, too, am not as inclined to listen to podcasts as to read, but I'm finding them increasingly valuable for the kind of stuff that didn't make it in the books and behind-the-scenes footage so to speak.

So I listened to your 2006 item above with Bishop interviewing Bill Moore, Isaac. It was actually an entertaining, and possibly informing, interview particularly up to the point where Moore talks about what Bennewitz might have filmed/seen. The interview veers away from the topic after that.

The Lost Bill Moore Interviews 2: The Road to Roswell

Taking into account what CardDown stated about Moore's facility for lying, I will say that in this interview he does sound at points like a guy who has finally faced that he was totally bamboozled.

Not innocent mind you; he can be oily I agree. But a sucker, at the end of the day, and he pretty much seems to admit that all the stuff he fought for as having some truth to them--MJ-12 related stuff mostly--was fabrication from intelligence operatives and their associates.

He does stick up for Roswell, however, and sounds rather passionate about it.

At about 31:00 into the interview Moore asserts that at least part of what Bennewitz saw and filmed were probably car- lights in the hills….well, that, and maybe lasers too--Sigma Site Russia Satellite Navigation Destruction or some such allegedly going on in Coyote Canyon.

Bishop also seems to give Chris Lambright a nod at that point, so I hope X Descending turns out to have at least some information that might fit into the puzzle. We'll see.

reply to post by freelance_zenarchist

Hey thanks, I'll do that. Just to analyze it from a reverse child-pyshology perspective.

freelance_zenarhist, that's not the first time you've been helpful on this subject matter. Mucho appreciado.

Originally posted by freelance_zenarchist
Have either of you two read Exempt from Disclosure by Bob Collins and Rick Doty?

Not for a while. I wonder if the later editions improve upon the editing of the first edition I read quite a while ago.

I don't recommend it, it's very poorly written, but I just happened to read this paragraph the other night that confirms both things you've mentioned above.

Thanks. Looks like I'm going to have to re-read Exempt from Disclosure to refresh my memory of the information in there

I'd planned on doing this - and re-reading Mark Pilkington's stimulating book Mirage Men and Greg Bishop well-known "Project Beta" - when I turned to focus on the Aviary after finishing writing a couple of other long threads. This discussion has made me put the somewhat tedious business of finishing those threads on the back-burner for the more entertaining business of getting stuck in to these issues. (Looking in to new topics is usually more fun than actually finishing off work on an old topic...)

In fact, I've made a small pile of Aviary related books to re-read (including quite a few remote viewing books that have quite a bit of material on some of the characters involved, e.g. Kit Green etc) and have bought, and started on, X-Descending at the moment, following CardDown's recommendation.