Pay No Attention to the Man Behind the Curtain! Alleged Super-Skeptic Tells All!

You know what I hate? Elitist jerks that jerk our chain as regards the very, imo, real UFO phenomenon. Those that would have us chase mythologies and lose sight of the cases that have merit and promise.

I've actually come to respect, ever so slowly, Jim Oberg quite a bit. I don't believe he's a shill for NASA and other agencies. Not anymore. Don't get me wrong, if there are any big secrets being kept by the gubmint as regards ufology, they probably haven't let Jim in on it.

My suspicion, however, is that our government is just about as clueless as we are on what the phenomenon is. If other-wordly intelligences exist, they aren't just smarter than us--the lay folk--they're smarter than ALL of us and perfectly capable of keeping everyone in the dark.

Actually, imo, there are folk here at ATS that have figured out more than NASA has. I think the attitude is, "If we can't figure it out, we'll use it to confuse the masses and make our "enemies" think we hold the secret, muah-ha-ha."

That's not to say that Jim knows nothing 'cause I think he does. He is even willing to share what he knows. Check out his open letter to CSETI from 1997:

Open letter to CSETI:

I applaud CSETI's efforts to strip away the "government secrets prosecution" barrier to the disclosure of people's stories about UFO experiences and I fully support the call for a government declaration that all legal constraints against disclosure be dissolved. I've always felt that claims of fear of such prosecution as an excuse by people not to "go public" was often merely a gimmick not to have to take responsibility for the authenticity of such stories, since as far as I've been able to tell -- and through OMNI's "Project Open Book" we searched far and wide for examples -- nobody has ever been arrested or charged -- much less convicted and sentenced -- for actually doing so.

But don't stop merely with legalizing disclosure of all -- if any -- government secrets about "real UFOs". I believe there is a far more valuable body of "secrets" that will help understand the decades of UFO phenomena that the world has experienced. This deals with government-related activities which directly or indirectly led to public perceptions that UFOs might be real when they weren't. Sometimes these actions were carefully orchestrated in advance, sometimes they were localized impromptu ad hoc damage- limitation tactics. But from my own experience, they seem to have played a tremendous and widely unappreciated role in inciting and enflaming public interests in UFOs while deflecting public attention from real highly-classified government activities.

I'm referring to situations where government representatives -- officials, military officers, any employees -- used "UFO" as a convenient camouflage for other official classified activities (such as retrieval of crashed aircraft or nuclear weapons or other objects), or used artificial "UFO stories" (in oral, written, photographic, film, etc.) form as "tracers" in studying the function of security safeguards and personnel psychological responses, or used "UFO" as an excuse (either intended or accidental) to cover-up improper, forbidden, or diplomatically delicate activities (such as aviation incidents involving dangerous accidental or deliberate close passes or intercepts of civilian airliners, or overseas excursions of agents on intelligence missions where deflection of local perceptions was useful, or to conceal from the country of origin the possession of foreign military hardware), or played pranks and jokes on intended or accidental targets, or any other activity that the government -- or any part of it -- wanted to keep hidden, knowing that having it thought of as "UFO-related" would consign it to the never-never- land of myth and nuttiness, thus keeping mainstream media attention to a minimum. And it's worked!!

Please include such "UFO secrets" in your list of disclosure demands, and ask that any government personnel involved in the use (or misuse and abuse) of such practices be immune from any government prosecution for the actions which led them to take such measures. Once such immunity is verifiably granted, I have my own list of people who have privately talked to me over the years and who were involved in government activities leading to a number of well-known "UFO cases", which can be released and which can help understand where and how much of today's UFO mythology originated.

This is a serious proposal deserving of serious consideration, and promises immensely fruitful results.

www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

Mr. Oberg, btw, apparently caught some flak and attempted intimidation for having the gaul to address these issues. But, it appears, he actually has "big ones"--big brass ones in fact--because he has stated on another thread of mine that he stands by these statements…regardless of any agencies that might not like it. I feel his sincerity, can you?

reply to post by The GUT
I'm very surprised to see that he included references to the govt/military using UFOs as a cover for sneaky business, but I'm sure he just said something that most of us have suspected for quite a long time. While I personally believe the UFO phenomena is in many cases real, I have always believed that many UFO reports have been our own people using the phenomena as a cover story for their own hidden agendas- in more than one fashion. Always a pleasure to read your threads Gut!

reply to post by The GUT


Applaud the efforts in the letter and I have respect for JO as I do most skeptics, well said.

wanted to keep hidden, knowing that having it thought of as "UFO-related" would consign it to the never-never- land of myth and nuttiness, thus keeping mainstream media attention to a minimum. And it's worked!!

Worked very well indeed I'd say, regardless of your stance

Originally posted by littled16
While I personally believe the UFO phenomena is in many cases real, I have always believed that many UFO reports have been our own people using the phenomena as a cover story for their own hidden agendas- in more than one fashion.

IIRC, this fact gas been admitted to by the U.S. Government, though not regarding any specific case.

Harte

Regardless of his stance on the issue he is polite always and not lazy with answers.Good men

reply to post by The GUT


You are right to think that this deserves a thread of it's own, it does. And I have to agree with you wholeheartedly, the gubmint doesn't know jack. I work for the gubmint and I know how the gubmint works.
There are a few in high places that might have an inkling, but for the most part, everyone is in their little compartment with access to what they need to do their job.

But on a higher level, I just don't think the government really knows anything about the phenomenon at all, well maybe not nothing, since they have studied it extensively, but nothing they could catalog, categorize or nail down to any framework that they currently have working.

Edit to add that there is no doubt by any serious researcher that the phenomenon is real, and there never has been.

Agreed TG,

I was really happy to see this thread of yours. I came away from that Argentina/Chile thing with a great deal of respect for Jim Oberg and I learned a great deal from interacting with him. I think that he is a powerful force on the side of understanding what the hell is going on; I think I am glad that I wasn't around to find out how he ever got tagged as some sort of 'shill'.

Anywho, agreed on all points, especially this...

My suspicion, however, is that our government is just about as clueless as we are on what the phenomenon is. If other-wordly intelligences exist, they aren't just smarter than us--the lay folk--they're smarter than ALL of us and perfectly capable of keeping everyone in the dark.

Originally posted by Bybyots
Agreed TG,

I was really happy to see this thread of yours. I came away from that Argentina/Chile thing with a great deal of respect for Jim Oberg and I learned a great deal from interacting with him. I think that he is a powerful force on the side of understanding what the hell is going on; I think I am glad that I wasn't around to find out how he ever got tagged as some sort of 'shill'.

Well, Sir Bybyots, it seems I owe you yet again. It was your thoughtful post on that other thread that brought this to mind. Imo, it was a very brave thing for Jim to do.

I get the feeling, however, that I'm the last to come to the understanding of just how messed up the ufology field has become because of certain factions. Maybe this topic is a moot point?

Other than giving Jim some well-deserved credit, does this thread have anything to add to the issue?

Then again, I think of the part of his letter that states, "or played pranks and jokes on intended or accidental targets," and it makes me mad as heck! This question, THE question, are we alone in the universe(?) shouldn't be mucked around with. Once or twice for real security purposes okay...as long as it's not carried too far and turned into an uber-mythology that leads the community ever further from a cohesive answer. MJ-12, Serpo, Maury Island and, yes, probably even Roswell. I find it a slap in the face and unconscionable.

The cold war paranoia turned out to be laughable and those other mythologies seem to be for purposes even far more sinister...or selfish at the very least.

Maybe it doesn't matter because most folk can see through the scams. But what about for those that can't? In addition, with this kind of muddying of the waters, we just might miss the best clues.

I don't know, I don't know...but I am hacked off.

reply to post by The GUT

I am hacked off.

I know, Dude, me, too. I was going down a totally different road till I saw that Coppens stuff, not saying it's the be-all end-all but it focuses so hard on what it focuses on that I don't know how anyone can come away from that un-pissed. I think I was genuinely depressed for 90 minutes or so. I'm still deeply bummed. I just don't get why anyone would do that to people, over such a sustained period of time. It's crazytown.

Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by littled16
While I personally believe the UFO phenomena is in many cases real, I have always believed that many UFO reports have been our own people using the phenomena as a cover story for their own hidden agendas- in more than one fashion.

IIRC, this fact gas been admitted to by the U.S. Government, though not regarding any specific case.

Harte

Only as regards cover-stories for the U-2 spy plane and such as far as I recall, but never in the variety of contexts mentioned in Oberg's letter.

There's also Gerald Haines official history of the CIA's Role in the Study of UFOs, 1947-90, of course, which contains some information but again; nothing that approaches the magnitude and variety of the Open Letter to CSETI. Of course any "official CIA history" document is probably an oxymoron of sorts for a clandestine organization.

reply to post by The GUT


I too have a great deal of respect for Oberg, even if I take my digs at him whenever I can.
He is a very rational guy. It is much appreciated because in this field it is all too easy to get lost in the myth, as you call it.

I would heed caution however not to throw the baby out with the bath water. Yes, the Government is KNOWN to promote a UFOlogical explanation to cover clandestine operations (the Harrier jet always comes to mind), and it is true that *as far as we know* they have found no answers.
But that hardly means they are in the dark all together. I have seen that line of thought thrown around a lot on these boards lately and it worries me that another mythology of sorts is forming.

I would ask you the same question you asked me the other day; What do YOU think Vallee discovered in Utah?

Another great thread, bud!
I always enjoy seeing our skeptics get the respect due to them.

reply to post by Harte


I saw a documentary about Area 51 that showed military/base personnel (may not have be military) actively flying altered RC planes at night (mostly bright lights added) and admitting that it was normal procedure. Now if they can do that and joke about it what can't they come up with when it really matters.

There is also the commercial aspect when dealing with Area 51 and other "culture" spots that also promote hoaxes and fakes, in this case I could even see some benefit to the state in keeping the interest up since had I any control would have already moved any interesting project to other locations several decades ago (my understanding is that the base has suffered real changes especially in the partial privatization of its use, even if to defense contractors).

There is a video of the pro-ET-UFO hypothesis Canadian ex-Defense Minister where he retells an even inside Canada that US forces did cross the border after fallowing an UFO that seemingly crashed in a body of water and Canadian forces by his own words were excluded from participating in the scene. This one really made some impact on me since we are talking about a political government official in the area of defense unable to control his own nation sovereignty (something that puts Canada in equal footing with Pakistan).

Originally posted by Bybyots
I know, Dude, me, too. I was going down a totally different road till I saw that Coppens stuff, not saying it's the be-all end-all but it focuses so hard on what it focuses on that I don't know how anyone can come away from that un-pissed. I think I was genuinely depressed for 90 minutes or so. I'm still deeply bummed. I just don't get why anyone would do that to people, over such a sustained period of time. It's crazytown.

I guess I should list the Philp Coppens' articles here now that you mention it. Some darn good writing and reading at the very least. His research checks out well, too.

Extra-terrestrial intelligence or terrestrial intelligence agencies?

The Pied Pipers of the CIA

The strangest UFO encounter… or a hoax?

Driving Mr. Bennewitz Insane

A lone chemist’s quest to expose the UFO cover-up

A missing Pentacle

The Gulf Breeze Six

New York, New York: the Linda Napolitano “abduction”

MJ-12: Majestic, or Incredulous?

Doctoring Villas Boas and aliens on ice

The alien overlords

RIP Philip Coppens 1971-2012

Originally posted by JayinAR
I would ask you the same question you asked me the other day; What do YOU think Vallee discovered in Utah?

Another great thread, bud!

I always enjoy seeing our skeptics get the respect due to them.

You are a true gentleman, Jay, and a pleasure on the boards. Yeah, our skeptics keep us focused.

Vallee on SkinWalker? Darn good question. He states he can't talk about it because of non-disclosure agreements with NIDS/Bigelow. But then again, they let Colm Kelleher & George Knapp talk and even write a book about it.

Having read just about everything Vallee has written--including his Forbidden Science Journals--and having a sense that he tries to be as honest as he can, I have the feeling he is silent because he can't, in good conscious, support the assertions of the other two.

Like I said: Bigelow let's Kelleher and even Knapp speak up, but not Doc Jock?? Hard to figure.

Might be pertinent to this thread: Bigelow is alleged, by at least one researcher, to be a CIA asset...

reply to post by The GUT


Thanks for the kind words. The feeling is mutual for sure, man.

It IS interesting that the lead investigator and a journo would be allowed to write, but not Vallee, isn't it??
Sounds to me like someone didn't wanna play ball.

I read the first of the articles in your last post (will try and get to more of them later). You are right, they are very well researched and written.
I do take issue with one key point though...that being that the abduction phenomena was defined with the Hills. My digging (years back) resulted in classic abduction accounts (missing time accompanied with strange aerial phenomena (glowing object resembling a UFO)) all the way back to colonial America! Good info nevertheless. Geeze man, you drop a novel worth of stuff at a time!

Originally posted by JayinAR
...I do take issue with one key point though...that being that the abduction phenomena was defined with the Hills. My digging (years back) resulted in classic abduction accounts (missing time accompanied with strange aerial phenomena (glowing object resembling a UFO)) all the way back to colonial America! Good info nevertheless. Geeze man, you drop a novel worth of stuff at a time!

I certainly agree that the abduction phenomenon doesn't rest, nor begin, with the Hill case. Not at all. But I do find that the under-reported details about Betty and Barney's experience might just support the premise of this thread: The alphabets will monkey with anything they think might get them some advantage regardless of the damage to our larger mysteries.

Having said that, I really LIKE the stuff I read about the Hills as far as what kind of folk they were. Someone, somewhere, here on the boards made the assertion that Barney wasn't very smart or sophisticated. What a bunch of malarkey, I found him to have been an extremely intelligent and seemingly very nice man when I delved into the literature and interviews.

If they were manipulated and abducto-scammed, shame-shame on the perps!

Has Jim provided any evidence for his claims?

Originally posted by The GUT


If they were manipulated and abducto-scammed, shame-shame on the perps!

If often wonder whether the "abducto-scam" derives solely from the hypnotic regression the "abductees" submit themselves to.

Here's some vintage Oberg. Horizon - Case of the UFOs (1982)

Originally posted by The GUT
I've actually come to respect, ever so slowly, Jim Oberg quite a bit.
(snip)

Check out his open letter to CSETI from 1997:

Open letter to CSETI:
(snip)

I have my own list of people who have privately talked to me over the years and who were involved in government activities leading to a number of well-known "UFO cases", which can be released and which can help understand where and how much of today's UFO mythology originated.

Unnamed sources in relation to unspecified events are not exactly convincing evidence.

Sure, there may be difficulties in providing better evidence but I think the burden of proof rests on those making allegations that government activities resulted in (unnamed) "well-known 'UFO cases' ".

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

To be clear: I'm not in the camp of people that assert that Jim Oberg is some sort of government agent spreading misinformation to cover up "real" UFOs. I'm not even saying that Jim is wrong to think that government activities had led to a number of well-known "UFO cases". I'm just saying that I haven't seen him (or others) put forward convincing evidence to support such claims (unless, that is, you take a pretty wide interpretation of "well-known" UFO cases...).

What would Jim Oberg (who is, of course, a fairly active member of ATS so may have seen this thread already) make of article written by someone claiming to to have a list of people who had talked privately over the years who were involved in investigations proving that ALIEN (rather than government) activities had resulted in a number of well-known "UFO cases" and that this information could be provided if the government gave a relevant authorisation? Would he consider that good evidence of anything?

On the (fairly safe) assumption that Jim Oberg would not consider such an article to be supported by good evidence unless and until further information/evidence were provided, doesn't the same apply to his claim to have a list of people who have privately talked to him over the years and who were involved in government activities leading to a number of well-known "UFO cases"?

Originally posted by IsaacKoi

Originally posted by The GUT
I've actually come to respect, ever so slowly, Jim Oberg quite a bit.
(snip)

Check out his open letter to CSETI from 1997:

Open letter to CSETI:
(snip)

I have my own list of people who have privately talked to me over the years and who were involved in government activities leading to a number of well-known "UFO cases", which can be released and which can help understand where and how much of today's UFO mythology originated.

Unnamed sources in relation to unspecified events are not exactly convincing evidence.

edit on 11-7-2013 by IsaacKoi because: (no reason given)

Yeah I agree.
I never knew Jim was a Conspiracy Theorist, I always thought he was a sceptic.