Pay No Attention to the Man Behind the Curtain! Alleged Super-Skeptic Tells All!

reply to post by Bybyots

Which makes me wonder another thing: do we all know each other well enough yet, and trust each other well enough yet, to come up with a list of anything that we agree on?

I thought the same thing a few weeks ago. Something like an ATS definitive UFOlogy guide or something.
A list of agreed upon charlatans, solid cases, etc.

Good idea, but there are too many dissenting opinions in ANY of these issues for it to be practical.

reply to post by JayinAR
Jay maybe you could come up with an informal poll of pertinent questions concerning opinions and theories everyone might agree on, or at least agree are entirely possible. That would be cool! Plus you could post a sexy picture on it!

reply to post by littled16


That work would be better left to someone with more research under their belts.
I just thought it would be a good idea.

Not Doty's FBI file, but I would REALLY like to see the records mentioned below by Greg Bishop:

...Some of you may remember Walter’s background includes stints as in the FBI and the Air Force Office of Special Investigations. In the last part of the show, we looked at Sgt. Richard Doty’s Air Force record (sent to me recently by researcher Alejandro Rojas) and discussed the implications of this legally released material.

Radio Misterioso Greg Bishop

Kandinsky first mentioned the following podcast interview between Greg Bishop and Bob Emenegger in another thread and Toxicsurf just referenced it in IsaacKoi's Roswell crash: New whistle-blower (or hoaxer?) that includes many of the characters and UFO topics being discussed here

Robert Emenegger – Weapons Of Mass Disinfo

Its not just the american government that cover-ups ufo activity its all the governments. Nations like russia, north korea, china, iran, brazil, venezuela, various african countries, europe, usa, etc.

Its not that there is no evidence, its just very well covered up. Ufos cloak and show themselves rarely. The american government proved it could cloak a destroyer with the philadelphia project so aliens thousands of years more advanced would have no problem doing the same and better.

I feel it could be a lost cause, or maybe there is still hope, I am not sure either way. All I know is the ptb do not want ufo/alien disclosure and will go to any length to cover it up. They want people to be religious and to keep fighting among themselves.

Ufos, aliens, masonry, banking, politics are all taboo. Where there is taboo usually there is cover-up!

It gives perspect why some know and why most dont.

Got to have the appropriate clearance AND "need to know".

CSETI has done a fantastic job though getting insiders interviewed.

Thanks for posting this thread GUT. I know there's a reason why I enjoy your stuff. I am at odds on whether I should put weight into two different possibilities as online interaction goes.

In regards to the utter crap that gets spammed all over the net,

I think either two things, people are simply doing it for 15 mins, or government et al, does it to make the issue look absurd. To take away any credibility there is.

That does not necessarily mean any of it is true although.

You are then given two more options, either, there really is something to the supposed crash landings (travel interstellar but crash on a small rock, huh?)

or,

The military saw a great cover-up tool for secret projects. Aliens! ...and then there's the whole, "Let's make our enemies think we have access to alien technology"

I mean, there's so many angles to it unless you are on the upper loop of the upper loops, you don't know _____.



But I'd rather know ______ and admit I know ______ than say I knew everything there is to know while having no evidence to back my position.

So yeah, I'm kinda fond of the guys that tell it like it is too.

Originally posted by FireMoon
reply to post by IsaacKoi

 

Tell you a little story about a classic military myth. That they have computers that are decades ahead of what we in the cheap seats have. Well, a few months ago, this being a time of austerity and all that, there was an auction on EBAY. Most wouldn't have noticed it, only a true geek friend of mine spotted it, bid and won it. He ended up with something like 20 PCs recently decommissioned from military use. They ran on XP and the only thing that marked them out as "unusual", was inbuilt sharing app, that allowed them to communicate with each other over a quite sophisticated network.

In short, the military, in terms of true blue sky technology are nowhere near as sophisticated as their press office would have you believe

.

True

Originally posted by The GUT
Not Doty's FBI file, but I would REALLY like to see the records mentioned below by Greg Bishop:

...Some of you may remember Walter’s background includes stints as in the FBI and the Air Force Office of Special Investigations. In the last part of the show, we looked at Sgt. Richard Doty’s Air Force record (sent to me recently by researcher Alejandro Rojas) and discussed the implications of this legally released material.

Radio Misterioso Greg Bishop

For those (like me) that want to find the relevant bit of that show, it begins at 1 hour 19 minutes (and lasts for about 10 minutes) in the episode listed on 6 May 2013 at:
radiomisterioso.com...

It's a bit hard to follow the commentary on the documents without having the documents. So, I'll try to get a copy. It sounds like the released documents are fairly limited (but then verified facts in relation to Doty's background are pretty limited...).

(From memory, I think military records on living people released in the USA under the USA's Freedom Of Information Act are very limited unless you get the relevant person to sign a privacy waiver. It doesn't sound like one was obtained from Doty).

Originally posted by The GUT

Originally posted by torsion
...Dr Susan Blackmore is. I worked with her on some Targ/Puthoff inspired Remote Viewing experiments in the early 80s!

I've always liked you, torsion, but I realize I never knew you. I'm determined to now though!

Have you written about those experiences, and cast of characters, here?

Cheers, Gut!

No I haven't mentioned them here. It was all a long time ago and the RV experiments yielded no positive results. It was fun being involved and disappointing that nothing worked. I recall standing with a monitor outside Johnny Roadhouse's music shop in Manchester "transmitting" details of my immediate surroundings to an unknown "receiver" in an unknown location. It was all very well controlled and documented. Though I said we yielded no positive results - that's what we were told. We were never actually shown the final results.

Nowadays, I suspect that the Remote Viewing claims made at that time were nothing more than Cold Wars deceptions. Attempts at worrying the "enemy" with the notion of astral projecting spies! Targ, Puthoff, Puharich, even Geller may have been part of a conspiracy to create a psychic spy myth.

Originally posted by torsion
Nowadays, I suspect that the Remote Viewing claims made at that time were nothing more than Cold Wars deceptions. Attempts at worrying the "enemy" with the notion of astral projecting spies! ;;;

It is my impression also that the project served as deceptive cover for at least one deep US agent in the USSR whose information, once the USSR realized the US had it, would have led back to him unless another semi-plausible explanation [RV] was more attractive to the Russians -- who LOVED 'ESP' stories.

Also, I know of at least one officer in 'Broken Arrow' who used 'crashed flying saucer' as deflective cover for a nuclear weapons retrieval exercise.

reply to post by JimOberg

Jim, thanks for contributing to this discussion. You've been kind enough to answer some personal correspondence for me, and I've found you not to be the Skepti-Satan some make you out to be.

I look in from time to time on the FPSPACE group, and found this exchange from 2007 enligtening:

Charles (Pat ) Vick: If there are any UFO's they are man made...

Jim Oberg: Pat, the topic of 'UFOs' is way beyond this group's interest, and so are authoritative pronouncements of opinions as if they were divine revelations.

Sounds fair, and I've also seen several instance in the past where you've expressed a positive interest in my favorite, the Cash-Landrum case, but voiced concerns about the investigation.

While, I don't always agree with your conclusions, I admire the way you respectfully address the topic, confine your opinions to your area of expertise, and are man enough to admit it when you make a mistake.

Originally posted by CardDown
...While, I don't always agree with your conclusions, I admire the way you respectfully address the topic, confine your opinions to your area of expertise, and are man enough to admit it when you make a mistake.

Thanks, where such behavior has gradually dominated, it has been lessons from discussions on ATF that has, I think, encouraged it. I've come to believe that, no matter WHAT the subject, a person should seek out people who think differently and talk about differences with them. I'm still learning.

Also, people have helped me in learning how to more clearly explain my own points of view, and in identifying gaps -- on both sides -- of basic knowledge that has usually been the largest barrier to better mutual understanding. But NOT gaps in intelligence or motives or integrity -- I don't find them often..

Originally posted by JimOberg
...Also, people have helped me in learning how to more clearly explain my own points of view, and in identifying gaps -- on both sides -- of basic knowledge that has usually been the largest barrier to better mutual understanding...

ATS is the first and only forum I've been a part off, if we don't count social media sites and I don't. For the first couple of years that I was aware of it's existence, I wouldn't even click on the links when they came up as I was researching because it seemed...well lets just say it seemed like the kind of place that I see GLP as.

And then, somewhere along the way, I needed more info on a subject and followed a link from google, grudgingly, and I found some posters that were as knowledgeable, or moreso, on the subject than any I had come across. Still took awhile before I would join.

Since that time, I hope I've continued to grow in the ways you list above, so: Thank you ATS fambly, I owe you a lot!

Originally posted by JimOberg
It is my impression also that the project served as deceptive cover for at least one deep US agent in the USSR whose information, once the USSR realized the US had it, would have led back to him unless another semi-plausible explanation [RV] was more attractive to the Russians -- who LOVED 'ESP' stories.

Also, I know of at least one officer in 'Broken Arrow' who used 'crashed flying saucer' as deflective cover for a nuclear weapons retrieval exercise.

Hey Jim & Torsion, speaking of the Remote Viewing programs: More than just a way to fool the Rooskies I think. They found, I believe, a lot of ways to springboard off that. The RV'ers did have to be classified as Human Use Experimentation after all. Shades of MK-ULTRA even.

We also see some of the main cast of characters from the RV programs become the cheerleaders and apparent originators of the MJ and SERPO scams: Hal Puthoff, Kit Green, et al.

There's certainly more to be divined by untangling all that mess. Come to think of it, some of the first funding procured for the RV program was raised by MK overseer Dr. Sidney "Dirty Trickster" Gottlieb it seems, hmmm...

Originally posted by JayinAR
reply to post by ImpactoR

 

why create a lie, then make it sound stupid and discredit the very lie you want to force on all people to accept as true? is this a lie at all? Anti-logic.

I can see the logic IF you start with a phenomena that has some measure of validity (UFOs), and you want to exploit it for personal gain, but not appear to stand behind it entirely (because again, the phenomena has validity).
That way, anything super secret you are working on that seems to defy logic may be lumped in with the phenomena by people who are generally too reluctant to speak about it openly because you are ALSO actively discrediting it.

Anti-logic? Nah, pretty crafty really.

NO

Another point:

You have whistleblowers
You have Phil Schneider, Paul Bennewitz, John Lear, Thomas Castello? etc etc claiming alien presence and cooperation with humans.

Yet, where are the whistleblowers who have documents and presented proof that the whole UFO phenomenon was fabricated to control the masses, to gain money, to hide technology. Where? All the denials have been nothing but opinions and theories of skeptics, why never seen such documents to be released and tell this UFO is all bollocks?

And if it is done just to gain money, so - people get injured, diseased, cattle gets cut, so as to put wood in the fire - so that the fire that keeps a MYTH going on to allow people who make books to be able to lie?

But is everybody a liar? Somehow, makes no sense to say so.

And to the PLASMA BEINGS OR NATURAL PHENOMENON sayers: So what is the point of taking dragon precautions to not reveal some Natural Phenomena? Or let's say that the UFOs were critters as in animals - scientists reveal unimportant for us lifeforms that live deep in the oceans or hazardous environment, yet they wouldn't talk about shiny insects or whatever other critters? Seriously?

Originally posted by ImpactoR
And to the PLASMA BEINGS OR NATURAL PHENOMENON sayers: So what is the point of taking dragon precautions to not reveal some Natural Phenomena? Or let's say that the UFOs were critters as in animals - scientists reveal unimportant for us lifeforms that live deep in the oceans or hazardous environment, yet they wouldn't talk about shiny insects or whatever other critters? Seriously?

Say we're are talking about plasma lifeforms that some call "critters." Doesn't mean they are like what we normally refer to as critters. If "critters" are the source of much of the phenomenon, then at least some of them possess GREAT intelligence and as such would present a threat to gubmint-types that couldn't explain NOR control them.

If they are showing up over nuclear weapons facilities at will and impervious to our defenses--or over Los Angeles in the 40s for that matter--then, yeah, no military leader would wanna admit THAT, eh?

Stick around, ImpactoR, slowly but surely an evolution in your thinking has become apparent. Continued research into this field and ATS can do that to ya. Love Ya, brudda, don't think I don't!

Originally posted by The GUT

My suspicion, however, is that our government is just about as clueless as we are on what the phenomenon is. If other-wordly intelligences exist, they aren't just smarter than us--the lay folk--they're smarter than ALL of us and perfectly capable of keeping everyone in the dark.

i guess im not the only one with the above suspicion for US goverment's powerlessness in the face of UFO phenomena.

as revealed by the 1950-60's documents, seems like their (USAF's) focus is to determine if these are a threat to US and seems like they found out its not a threat then they lost interest.

the only real concern from the goverment is the public perception of UFO and the communiation channel. if somehow the real enemy (the communeest) waht to attack US , they can stage massive fake UFO flap all around US and thus clogging every communication channels and might endanger military response to the real attack (behind the fake flap).

thus it seems the purpose of US Intelligence is to make UFO a ridiculous matter that anyone mentioning it will be laugh out of the room. Seems like that works well as nowadays only cranks and hoaxters are seen in public (real researchers seems to go underground).

On AlienBishop's thread The UFO Threat he provided some good links as regards cattle testing in relation to radiation even unto the 2nd and 3rd generation that might explain the cattle mutilation phenomenon. gortex provided some serious material regarding the conclusions of Gabe Valdez as far as cow mutilations and top-secret military craft go.

For those of you who have already done some deeper research, or those who've looked into the Bennewitz and Doty connection realize, it appears Bennewitz DID observe and film UAP that, given the details in Greg Bishop's Project Beta, and other sources, suggest Bennewitz might just have been filming advanced government craft.

This might have bearing on just how far and to what degree the intel boys will go to hide top secret projects.

on This thread, Isaac then posted a link that revealed the following pics taken by Bennewitz:

Pretty cool and rather good pics of UAP phenomenon compared to the norm if'n you ask me. If we do have top-secret self-luminous craft flying out of the western bases, then it makes sense that AFOSI and crew would want to disguise that fact and kill two birds with one stone--as intel ops are rather famous for--and blend it with cattle/radiation studies under the ever-so-covenient and oft used excuse of UFOs. After all…that's Doty's specialty it appears.

If the above is true, then it follows that the gubmint wouldn't want clear radar signals. "Chaff" for those that study cattle mutilations know, has been reportedly found at some mutilation sites. Not only that, but from the vid below, we can see that chaff dispersal--especially at night--could easily confuse the civilian population. Let's look at chaff:

Indications are the Redstone blob - the strange image that began cropping up on weather radars yesterday afternoon - was due to chaff emitted from some form of military testing.

Chaff, made up of thin pieces of aluminum, fiberglass or plastic, has long been used by the military as a countermeasure designed to fool radar.

blog.al.com...

Early Lancaster Chaff Dropping Window

I dunno, but points to consider…

reply to post by milomilo

the only real concern from the goverment is the public perception of UFO

I feel that this is far more important than people realize.
It is psyop, but on an entirely different level than things like 9-11. Call it magic, or what have you, but it is our perception of events that causes these things from the get-go.

It is the Matrix. But we write the code

My official .02 at the moment.