Pay No Attention to the Man Behind the Curtain! Alleged Super-Skeptic Tells All!

Originally posted by littled16
reply to post by The GUT

 

*Comic relief enters the thread*

Dueling Light Sabers

I hope I'm the smiley-face-pacman icon and not Darth Vader!

Got my very first ufo sighting today. Got it on video too. Broad daylight sighting. The thing was huge and had helicopters flying around it.
I have contacted a few radio stations to see if they can identify it.
Do I believe it is a flying saucer? No

reply to post by BullwinkleKicksButt


Where did the sighting take place?

Originally posted by torsion
reply to post by BullwinkleKicksButt

 

Where did the sighting take place?

Melbourne.
My best guess is, it maybe just a huge flag being towed by a helicopter.
The strange thing is there is nothing discernible on it ie no advertising etc. It almost appears black.
If I don't hear anything to identify the thing, I'll let you guys check it out.

Originally posted by The GUT

Originally posted by BullwinkleKicksButt
I haven't read the book, but I'm struggling to believe top secret military research by steeling cows in the middle of the night and then returning them.
Besides that, the effects of radiation exposure are already well established.

I've said it before but this is occurring all over the planet even in countries that do not have nuclear weapons.
I'm not buying it.

Do you have a theory about the mutilations? Coyotes/Predators? Aliens? If neither of those then what? The evidence builds for government participation.

edit on 23-7-2013 by The GUT because: (no reason given)

US Defence Budget : 680 billion dollars
New Zealand Defence budget : 1 billion dollars
(according to Wikipedia)

New Zealand has no Nuclear weapons and spends nothing on Defence. In fact their Defence R&D (DTA)
expenditure is virtually non-existant.
I can't see any reason why New Zealand would participate in this kind of R&D.

Originally posted by BullwinkleKicksButt
US Defence Budget : 680 billion dollars
New Zealand Defence budget : 1 billion dollars
(according to Wikipedia)

New Zealand has no Nuclear weapons and spends nothing on Defence. In fact their Defence R&D (DTA)
expenditure is virtually non-existant.
I can't see any reason why New Zealand would participate in this kind of R&D.

If it has happened in New Zealand, who says it was New Zealand government that was responsible? I am interested in any New Zealand cattle mutilations that are fairly-well documented though.

Hey, very interested in what you saw/filmed!!

Originally posted by The GUT

Originally posted by BullwinkleKicksButt
US Defence Budget : 680 billion dollars
New Zealand Defence budget : 1 billion dollars
(according to Wikipedia)

New Zealand has no Nuclear weapons and spends nothing on Defence. In fact their Defence R&D (DTA)
expenditure is virtually non-existant.
I can't see any reason why New Zealand would participate in this kind of R&D.

Hey, very interested in what you saw/filmed!!

Yeah it was cool. I am virtually 100% certain it is just something being towed by a helicopter.
The interesting part is I got no idea what purpose it was meant to serve. If it was a giant flag or some sought of advertising it would make sense. This thing was huge. I got no idea why a helicopter was towing it through the sky.

Originally posted by BullwinkleKicksButt

Yeah it was cool. I am virtually 100% certain it is just something being towed by a helicopter.

Could this have anything to do with it? They tow flags and banners and there is mention of the world's largest flag. No pic though.

Originally posted by torsion

Originally posted by BullwinkleKicksButt

Yeah it was cool. I am virtually 100% certain it is just something being towed by a helicopter.

Could this have anything to do with it? They tow flags and banners and there is mention of the world's largest flag. No pic though.

Yeah definitely. I might even call them and show them the video.
The interesting thing with this is that there is no writing or bright colours that you might expect to see on advertising or a flag.

Originally posted by The GUT
I am interested in any New Zealand cattle mutilations that are fairly-well documented though.

I was certain I had read an interesting NZ case, still trying to find it.
I'm half way through the pod cast. I need to listen to it again, I kept on getting interrupted.
I'll try and listen to it at least a few times.

I finished listening to the podcast. It's a little bit vague to form an opinion. I will need to read the book to see what evidence they have to support their claims.

Originally posted by The GUT
You mentioning those cases brought Bennewitz back to mind. In that case we have a man, a good citizen and apparently a patriot, who not only has sightings, but films them, and then it's fairly well-documented he had his head and life messed with in rather cruel ways. Who do we find at the center of it: That merry ol' trickster Doty. Who was still active military (AFOSI) at the time, ahem.

Regarding Doty, re-reading "Swamp Gas Times: My Two Decades on the Ufo Beat" by Patrick Huyghe the other day looking for some bits and pieces relating to government disinformation, I came across the following paragraph on pages 102-103:

In the late 1990s Ron Pandolfi, the CIA's "keeper of the weird" asked Dan Smith and a low-key UFO researcher by the name of Bill LaParl to collect all the data available on Rick Doty and his alleged source, the "raven". LaParl's dozen page report with its supporting documents was apparently quite thorough. This report was circulated in some pretty high offices, perhaps even to the commander-in-chief, according to rumor. The situation led Smith to wonder: "How can one staff sergeant cause so much heart burn...?"

I've only seen a few brief references to Bill LaParl over the years, but know that Dan Smith is still pretty active online - particularly on the now rather quite "Open Minds Forum". I've therefore just joined that forum and asked if the moderator, Jake Reason, or Dan Smith have a copy of Bill LaParl's dozen page report on Doty.

Since I'm new to that forum, it may help prompt a full response if one or two other people display some interest on that forum in seeing that dozen page report and supporting documentation.

The relevant thread on the Open Minds Forum is at:
openmindsforum.forumotion.com...

reply to post by IsaacKoi
^^^^Great idea^^^^

In finishing Chris Lambright's X Descending last night, he relates a VERY interesting tale about Doty in the appendices and suggests that Rick Doty might have been CIA all along. While no conclusion on that can be made, Lambright does state that:

A copy of Doty's service records had been released in 1988, under the Freedom of Information Act, to well-known researcher Larry Bryant. He sent me a copy of what he had received, and this early set of documents contained substantially more information than the spotty collection of details released to me after my own more recent request.

Are the older Doty service records the same as provided by Alejandro Rojas, or is this a new avenue to pursue I'm wondering?

Quote Source: X Descending

Originally posted by The GUT
Are the older Doty service records the same as provided by Alejandro Rojas, or is this a new avenue to pursue I'm wondering?

I've just read the relevant pages of Chris Lambright's X Descending and, from the discussion on those pages, it seems the older release includes details NOT included in the material provided by Alejandro Rojas (e.g. contact details for Doty's next of kin).

Those older records may be included in the supporting documents apparently attached to Bill LaParl's "report". Or Chris Lambright may be prepared to supply a copy of the material that was forwarded to him.

You know, now that I think about it, Richard Doty as a CIA asset does have some basis not only in Lambright's very intriguing, but inconclusive, tale about Doty and Laos.

If I remember correctly, Dr. Christopher "Kit" Green and some others state that Doty came highly-recommended by two former CIA heads. If true, that's a rather interesting place for a former AFOSI Sgt. to be getting referrals.

Anyone looking into the early history of the MJ-12 documents and various activities of Moore, Doty and the Aviary may find the bibliography compiled by Ed Stewart at the link below useful. It isn't complete (in fact, it's pretty easy these days to find quite a few additional articles) but that list is still pretty useful as a resource when digging into some of these matters.

I only came across that bibliography today and it would have saved me some time if I'd be aware of this resource earlier...

www.ufoupdateslist.com...

A CHRONOLOGICAL LISTING OF MJ-12 AS SEEN THROUGH THE PAGES OF
IUR (INTERNATIONAL UFO REPORTER) (CUFOS), JUST CAUSE,
MUFON UFO JOURNAL, AND UFO MAGAZINE
compiled by Ed Stewart 8/6/96
DATE PUBLICATION/AUTHOR/TITLE
----
---------------------------------------------------------------
12/85 CAUS BULLETIN, No. 2, pp. 2-2, Fawcett, Larry (ed.),
Greenwood,
Barry (ed.), "[Copy Of The So-Called "Aquarius"
Document]"

12/85 JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 6, pp. 1-8, Greenwood, Barry
(ed.),
"MJ12: Myth Or Reality?"

07/86 CAUS BULLETIN, No. 5, pp. 2-2, Fawcett, Larry (ed.),
Greenwood,
Barry (ed.), "Project Aquarius Confirmed?"

12/86 JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 10, pp. 2-4, Greenwood, Barry
(ed.), "Addendum Of "Aquarius" And Stealth"

87 UFO, Vol. 2, No. 3, pp. 4-5, Cooper, Vicki (ed.), Stark,
Sherie (ed.), "News: 'MJ-12' Nails 'Cover-Up'"

87 UFO, Vol. 2, No. 4, pp. 6-7, Cooper, Vicki (ed.), Stark,
Sherie (ed.), "Official Disclosures Hover On Horizon -
Panel Foresees Government 'Uncover-Up'"

Lots more articles listed (in chronological order) at the link above.

Originally posted by IsaacKoi
Well, I have seen a reference to a FBI file on Doty being held by some researchers - and other material relating to investigations of him. I'd like a copy of that documentation...

www.sciforums.com...

Paul Warren

I've just finished conducting an investigation into the former special agent, osi, Richard Doty. I received the FBI investigation on Doty. Although heavily censored, it concluded Doty did not pass the MJ12 documents, was involved in the Ellsworth AFB hoax document sent to the National Enquire. However, Doty did admit performing USAF/OSI sponsored disinformation operations against UFO investigators, particularly Linda Howe. I interviewed Doty in Jan 98. He denied any involvement in current UFO investigations.

I've found another post by "Paul Warren" about FBI documents on Richard Doty, this time on the sadly long defunct Ufomind people website:
preview.tinyurl.com...

Paul Warren posted on that page (as did Doty himself):

I met Richard Doty in Albuquerque, NM in Jan 98. He agreed to an interview regarding FBI FOIA documents related to him. I received two FBI FOIA documents pertaining to an investigation conducted on Doty by the FBI in 1987/88 and 91. The FBI cleared Doty of any involvement in the MJ12 documents, Ellsworth AFB incident in 1977 and a few other allegations. Although I read the heavily blackened out FBI report, I don't believe it. I think someone planted these documents just for us to find. I think Doty was involved in these incidents and I can prove it.

-- Paul Warren ([email protected] ) 7/7/99 (#2)

Phil Klass wrote about Doty a few times, including an interview which referred to this FBI investigation of Doty:


www.csicop.org... Klass Files Volume 34 : The Skeptics UFO Newsletter : July 1, 1995

...
In early 1985, Sgt. Doty was transferred to West Germany and assigned to counterintelligence work where his proclivity for spinning tall tales soon got him into trouble. As a result Doty reportedly was charged with submitting two spurious reports about his contacts and a false claim for funds he allegedly had spent for counterintelligence activities. The USAF decided against a court-martial because it would disclose counterintelligence details. Instead, Doty reportedly was “given Article 15,” his rank was reduced to Technical Sergeant and he was dropped from AFOSI. Doty ended his USAF career in the Services Squadron at Kirtland AFB where his duties included managing the non-commissioned officers’ mess hall [SUN #7/Jan. 1991].

www.csicop.org...
The Klass Files Volume 44 : The Skeptics UFO Newsletter : March 1, 1997

On April 16, 1983—less than two years before William L. Moore and Jaime Shandera claim they received the “Top Secret/Eyes Only” MJ-12 documents from an unknown source—Moore reportedly sought the reaction of his friend Brad Sparks, a respected UFO researcher, to the idea of creating such counterfeit government documents.

...

SUN first learned of Sparks’ involvement in mid-1991 but he was reluctant to speak out. Subsequent events have overcome his reluctance. These include limited disclosure of Moore’s idea of creating bogus documents by Kevin Randle and Don Schmitt in their 1994 book, “The Truth About The UFO Crash At Roswell.” In a brief chapter debunking the MJ-12 papers, the book reports: “According to Friedman, among others, Moore had suggested as early as 1982 that he wanted to create Roswell documents, thinking that it might open doors that were closed.”

Moore’s idea may have been inspired by Sgt. Richard Doty, then assigned to the Air Force Office of Special Investigations (AFOSI) at Kirtland Air Force Base, in Albuquerque, N.M., with whom Moore developed a close friendship in the early 1980s. Doty was “involved” or suspected of being involved in the creation of several counterfeit government documents about bogus UFO incidents, as Moore later admitted in his 1990 report “The MJ-12 Documents: An Analytical Report,” co-authored with Shandera. In 1985, Doty was transferred to an AFOSI post in West Germany and assigned to counter-intelligence work. Within two years Doty was dismissed from AFOSI for turning in bogus claims about his activities. He spent the last two years before retirement serving as the manager of the mess hall for noncommissioned officers at Kirtland AFB [SUN #7/Jan. 1991].

...
So far as is known to SUN, the term “MJ Twelve” first appeared on a one-page “Secret” teletype message involving UFO photos, dated Nov. 17, 1980, which Doty provided to Moore in early 1981. (This was roughly four years before Shandera reportedly received the MJ-12 roll of film in a brown wrapper postmarked “Albuquerque.”)

Extract from transcript of telephone interview of Doty by Klass on 9 January 1988:
www.ufoera.com...

PJK: (Explains prevailing view among UFO believers is that MJ-12 is a
hoax, but question is who is responsible for producing them.)

RCD: WELL, THE FBI KNOWS THAT. THE FBI KNOWS WHO DID IT. THAT
INFORMATION WAS PROVIDED TO THE FBI, THE FBI INTERVIEWED THIS PERSON
AND OF COURSE THIS PERSON DENIED HE EVER GAVE THEM TO HIM (Moore).
But I thin what this person did was he created the documents--I don't
know if Bill Moore was actually involved in it, I don't think he was,
but it's a possibility.

The FBI never pursued it, I don't know why, unless they just couldn't.
I don't know if there was any law that this guy broke. I don't if that
is public record or not, but you'd have to go to the FBI to find out.
BUT I KNOW FOR A FACT THEY INTERVIEWED HIM--THIS PERSON IN WASHINGTON D.C.

PJK: And about when would that have been?

RCD: Ah, gee, last year (ie. 1987)

Do the moderators here ever revise thread titles? This discussion has broadened far beyond the original topic, and It would be nice if non-participants had a clue what was going on.

Originally posted by IsaacKoi
I've found another post by "Paul Warren" about FBI documents on Richard Doty, this time on the sadly long defunct Ufomind people website:
preview.tinyurl.com...

Well, as I guessed would probably be the case, the email address in the post from 1999 at the above link is dead.

Originally posted by IsaacKoi
Well, as I guessed would probably be the case, the email address in the post from 1999 at the above link is dead.

As I'm sure you also suspect, Isaac, "Paul Warren" probably was Richard Doty. That man must go through a ton of socks.