Amnesty International weighs in on Snowden

Originally posted by crazyewok
Waiting in the Airport until he can get a safe flight out.

Proof please.
And you don't think that he can be questioned and give up information in an office at an airport?

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
...
I've met some people that speak like you do. Just a few. As much as they were allies of necessity at that moment, those who are dedicated to the total destruction of the system or my nation are my enemy. Absolutely no confusion ought to ever exist on that.

I respect that. There are others that hide their intentions behind rhetoric, you have the honesty to draw the line in the sand. It does not change my position in any way however.

I see major major ways my nation and my Government needs reformed.

An that should be your priority. When people like Manning and Snowden risk life and liberty to make changes to your system, you (collective) should respect that and defend thos actions. Not vilify these men and forse them into a life on the lamb or in a concrete cell.

I see serious ways other nations like Russia, needs reformed (The outright crusade against anything homosexual comes to mind as a starter).

But you are not Russian, so you cant make change from within. The US you can, so why havnt you?

Their way is not and never will be our way

Ummm, in what sense? dat dey dun gunna be aint represenin are dumbucracy???? Humans tend to hold the same core values, maybe look past the preconcived notion of the reds under the bed and wake up to the real world.

...anymore than our way turned out to be something they could work with after their spectacular crash in 1989/90.

After the US bankrupt the CCCP with a 30 year arms race that could only result in mutually assured destruction!

Now it's our turn, apparently, for the math to catch up, as it did for them before, and our turn to crash. We don't need their help in causing it...let alone one of our own people helping to accelerate it.

Its all fart of the fall, it happens from within. A sole super power can not be defeated, it has to implode. Enjoy the show.

We certainly won't need their help afterward. Reform and Rebuilding. That is the only logical path.

Like Europe never needed the Truman Plan or Marshall doctrine to rebuild after the last time it imploded? You will need our monies to rebuild. We actually still have money here

Wholesale destruction is insane and criminally insane at that.

Thank you

Originally posted by xavi1000
You need to grow up ,

No .... that need goes to people who state that those who disagree with them are 'obstructing and impeding truth' and/or have an agenda

If you want to think this guy is some kind of hero. Go right ahead. Knock yourself out.
I will reserve dubbing him 'hero' until all the facts are in and the dust has settled.
Considering that he's running around foreign countries giving away national security secrets ...
I doubt that 'hero' will be anything I'll be calling him ....

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by crazyewok
Waiting in the Airport until he can get a safe flight out.

Proof please.
And you don't think that he can be questioned and give up information in an office at an airport?

Proof please that he is giving secrets to the Russians. You can't go around posting like that when you can't provide proof yourself....

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by crazyewok
Waiting in the Airport until he can get a safe flight out.

Proof please.
And you don't think that he can be questioned and give up information in an office at an airport?

And proof otherwise.

We dont really know eitherway.


All we know is he is in the airport awaiting safe transit elsewere.

reply to post by Todzer


Common sense and what has been revealed in the news from over there as well as what he has already said say that he's giving up secrets.

However, we can't say that he's sitting in an airport in Moscow. THAT we can't use common sense to figure out. The dude could be anywhere. He's not going to advertise his position.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by xavi1000
You need to grow up ,

Considering that he's running around foreign countries giving away national security secrets ...
I doubt that 'hero' will be anything I'll be calling him ....

Proof for that ? you are bubling this from beggining , foreign countries , national secrets bla bla .... Snwden is a hero in my eyes because i will not do that if i was in his place and i'm honest about that , and one is the reasons is people like you ..attacking the messenger and avoiding the message , why i would destroy my life for freedom when slaves around me want to be slaves.

reply to post by cartenz

Like Europe never needed the Truman Plan or Marshall doctrine to rebuild after the last time it imploded? You will need our monies to rebuild. We actually still have money here

I could see your sympathies lay heavily in line to the Russian world outlook and long term goals. I hadn't realized you were Russian. Thanks for the slip of the tongue to confirm that fact too. I do find it refreshing to know what background and obvious loyalties folks debate from. Given that Russia is among the only nations currently on Earth without a major debt problem, the assumption isn't just reasonable by your statement there, it would seem to be the only logical one to come to.

It seems the adversarial roles of the world never went away. It got quiet for a good number of years ....but nothing seems to have ultimately changed.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Now you are jumping to conclusions, just because you think it doesn't make it so, you have obviously made up your mind that he is a traitor without evidence.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

No. Abortions are forced in China under the one child policy. That's a fact.

Forced abortions associated with administration of the one-child policy have occurred in the People's Republic of China; they are a violation of Chinese law and are not official policy.

Of course they do not really enforce the law, but last year the Chinese government did suspend 3 family planning employees for forcing a woman to have an abortion.

Snowden made it very clear that he does not have this information on his person, and that in the event of his death or capture it will be released. I have no idea why he choose China and Russia to help him, but one could speculate that he needed the support of Governments powerful enough to stand up to the US Government.

The World community is sick and tired of the US having Cart Blanche to disregard international laws, not to mention the laws of our own land. Gaddafi pleaded with the UN to prevent his country from being attacked, and it's obvious to me he was absolutely murdered to allow Al Quida to take over and force the banksters agenda on that country.

Lets get real about China too.....Our Corporate Government sold us out to China a long time ago....for God's sake, we have given them land, infrastructure and access to strategic ports on the West Coast and now our Government wants to pretend they are our enemy?! The enemy is our Government that used tax payer assets for collateral on bogus debts we never agreed to.

As others have pointed out we really don't know yet what information he has, other then peoples personal information was being collected, against the will of the people and against the the 4th amendment....which in my mind trumps any BS laws put in place to make it "legal" technically. The odds are good he has dirt on one or more of the crooks that run this "con" on the people, and that is really their true concern, not security......IMHO......" you reap what you sow "....

reply to post by FlyersFan


China already heavily suspected and accused the US intelligence agencies of hacking it back in February of this year (evidence: www.npr.org... ). If Snowden did anything, it was more of a confirmation of what the Chinese government already knew. Additionally, considering the stated scope of PRISM, the confirmation of its existence already indicated that the US intelligence community had been collecting foreign communications. The inclusion of China or Russia in the collection of that "foreign" data, considering the US's "anti-commie" stance, is a no-brainer. In other words, did he really tell them anything that they didn't already know/suspect, especially post-PRISM reveal? Nope.

I'm not really surprised at all that the US is facing some issues with extraditing Snowden. The existence of PRISM would've upset the international community moreso than we here. The reason being is that, while we have some possible protections/say as US citizens, non-US citizens don't. It's not their government doing it--it's ours. Nor am I surprised of where Snowden went or is at currently. If you're about to become public enemy number one of your country of residence, then running to those countries who have the least pleasant relationship with said country would almost guarantee that they would not be so keen on simply handing you over. Doubly so if they were the possible primary targets of said disclosure. Imagine if he went to the UK where it's now being revealed that they were participating in similar surveillance. How long do you think he would've lasted?

Let there be no doubt that Edward Snowden did the absolutely right thing and exposed the illigal stuff there is goin on. Givin up his normal life and do that makes him a Hero in my eye's for sure.

Of course the US govverment is goin to discredit him as much as they can, and they will say anything to justify themselves and makes him look like the traitor, so the RUMORs of him givin up secrets to foreign countries cant really be used to anything good cant they? no facts, just rumors to miscredit him..... and that some people actually buy this bs in the name patriotism, it really makes me wonder.

The US govenment is just reaping what they sow, and i really hope for the freedom of the united states inhabitants that this trend will continue - blow the wistle, stop the illigal stuff and get your personal freedom back.

Have a nice day out there

reply to post by ColCurious

 

I started a thread about some of Kerry's comments today. Link in my siggy.
"It is possible that the United States will be attacked..." -John Kerry

edit on 25-6-2013 by Heliophant because: (no reason given)

Well if it is, I welcome our new russian overlords. Might help me see my Fiancee quicker since we might be saying "comrade" in the next few years.

Though id much rather have the U.S reclaim their birthright and push backthe bankers at their home base. Britain.

Originally posted by WhiteAlice
If you're about to become public enemy number one of your country of residence, then running to those countries who have the least pleasant relationship with said country would almost guarantee that they would not be so keen on simply handing you over. Doubly so if they were the possible primary targets of said disclosure. Imagine if he went to the UK where it's now being revealed that they were participating in similar surveillance. How long do you think he would've lasted?

One of the best points I've heard so far.

On the other hand though, I can't help but get the feeling that China and Russia view him as a pesky fly on the wall. More of an annoyance than someone who could be useful. To be honest. I really don't know where that guy is gonna end up. Ecuador or Iceland would be my guess. The people of Ireland are gaining more of an affinity with the people of the U.S. as well because of the banking scandals, so he might end up there.

Time will tell I guess.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Daedalus
so the guy exposes illegal activities being perpetrated by the U.S. federal government upon it's own citizens, and somehow HE'S the bad guy?

That's not the part that makes him the bad guy. If that was all he did, then he'd be a hero of epic proportions. Worthy of patriotic history legend like Paul Revere. But Snowden didn't stop there but instead went to China and spilled state secrets of the international type that weakened America's national security. That's where his hero-story starts to unravel and get convoluted.

Bulls**t.

Exposing this ILLEGAL program doesn't hurt our "national security" in the slightest..

and he didn't run to china, and give them our secrets....he went to Hong Kong, where he knew he'd be able to tell his story....there IS a difference.

State secrets would be something along the lines of detailed blueprints of the presidential bunker, or nuclear launch codes, or schematics of our nuclear weapons, and how to disable them, or the identities of all undercover federal agents around the world....things like that are state secrets, and rightfully so....an ILLEGAL program this government uses to spy on it's own citizens for no reason other than "because we f**king can", is ONLY secret, because they don't think we have a right to know how they're spending our money....that's a bulls**t secret, and he was COMPLETELY right for exposing it.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Todzer
It looks like he didn't have much of a choice though, .

He had a lot of choices ....
- Don't say anything at all.
- Tell the American people about the NSA spying on them, and then stay and fight like a patriot.
- Tell the American people about the NSA spying on them, and then run.
- Tell the American people about the NSA spying on them, and then run and help America's enemies (China and Russia) by telling state secrets that weaken the defense of the USA.

He decided to do the last .... which means he isn't a patriot. He has harmed America.

I get that there is a huge LUV-FEST going on here about Snowden. Lots of people are turning him into a folk-hero. But take a look at ALL his actions, not just the release of the info about the NSA spying on Americans.

I'm glad he released that info. It was a good thing to do. It was a patriotic thing to do. It was a heroic thing to do. But he didn't stop there. He went on to aid America's foreign enemies and put Americans in danger . So his actions and motives are now highly suspect. People here hate to hear those facts. But it's the truth.

ok, your first option results in him dying VERY shortly after releasing his information, it gets very little coverage, and the story disappears in less than a week....FANTASTIC OPTION!

Your second option results in him dying VERY shortly after releasing his information, before he can get anywhere NEAR a border to leave the country, the story gets very little coverage, and disappears in less than a week... SUPER FANTASTIC OPTION!

The last option is stupid, and not at all what was done....

what was actually done, was a semi-neutral location was chosen, he met with media, told them what was up, an the story broke OUTSIDE of american media or federal governmental control.....they couldn't just sweep it under the rug like they could if he'd tried to break the story from inside the U.S.

i'm not sure where you're getting this whole "traitor who gave away secrets, and hurt us" nonsense....

How do I flag this thread and save democracy?

Originally posted by FlyersFan

I get that there is a huge LUV-FEST going on here about Snowden. Lots of people are turning him into a folk-hero. But take a look at ALL his actions, not just the release of the info about the NSA spying on Americans.

Guy Fawkes tried to blow up the english parliment building....to this DAY, he's considered a folk hero....if he tried that today, he's be labled a terrorist, and a traitor..

And then we have "Billy the kid" "Jesse James", and "Davy Crockett"...all folk heros, all did some seriously bad s**t in their day.....

all this guy did was release a few documents, proving our government is no longer acting in the best interests of we the people...he's not killed or injured anyone....

Originally posted by Daedalus
Bulls**t.
Exposing this ILLEGAL program doesn't hurt our "national security" in the slightest..

Use as many cuss words as you can get away with .. that doesn't change the fact that he is exposing national security secrets OTHER THAN the NSA Spy on Americans program. And those other secrets do indeed hurt our national security.

As I said .. I applaud the part about revealing the NSA Spy on Americans program.
But he took it too far by going overseas and revealing security info to China and Russia.