Protestant disinfo debunked-Catholics are also Christians

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by adjensen

 

Nope, you can't do that, because "He" in verse two is a personal pronoun, so it can't be replaced with an impersonal article like "The plan of the Son of God". You can replace "the Word" with it (though that's obviously not what John meant) but you cannot replace "He" with it, so your passage is:

Actually you can, if you go back to the original Greek and translate it into English with "it" instead of "He".
You are making an argument based on someone's interpretation of what the context is.
It can go either way, depending on whether you think it means a person or not.

I haven't ever seen a translation that doesn't equate "the Word" with a person, so either you're a better translator than anyone else in the history of the world, or you're wrong.

Sorry, Dewey, I'm going with the latter.

I see the distinction between Word and God as I see the distinction between Messieh and God. God being Spirit and Messieh being the same Spirit in flesh. Although the Messieh did not exist before His incarnation, except for the Spirit which is the Father, He did pre-exist the incarnation in the mind of God. The Messieh was with God in the beginning as a plan, and when He was born He was the one God according to His Spirit.

Separating the Messieh and God into two separate spirit persons of God or gods causes a mess as I have stated previously. You either go into polytheism or cause one spirit person to be above the other.

reply to post by adjensen

I haven't ever seen a translation that doesn't equate "the Word" with a person . . .

You mean Logos, and specifically in John 1.
There isn't anything in the Greek, which it was originally written in, that indicates that it should be understood that way.
If that was generally the way Christians understood Jesus back when John was written, it seems that you should find a reference to that somewhere else in the New Testament, but you don't.
I have spent a lot of time on those verses and analysing the words in them and seeing how they are used in the rest of the Bible.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Plan (Schedio) is not a synonym for Word (Logos). Especially in Greek.

Actually it is, and is used in that way a lot in the Septuagint.
Now, this is something that I know, from studying the Greek Old Testament, and I don't expect everyone else to know that.
This is why I posted the link to the list I made of the verses in the OT, so people can see how it is used.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Okay, that would be fine. But it's irrelevant in the book of John, which was written in Greek.

It is relevant since, like he said, English is the language that we are discussing in.
You were the one being "irrelevant" by introducing the Greek word for plan (actually a root word for design, but means incomplete).

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by jcutler12888

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by truejew
reply to post by jcutler12888

 

If the priest/minister does baptize in the name of Christ, they are not really Catholic/Protestant since that baptism is considered to be heresy to both groups.

That's funny. I go to a missionary baptist church, but am nondenominational. My wife is the baptist, yet our preacher baptized me in the name of Jesus Christ. Unless I missed something, baptists, southern baptists and missionary baptists came out of the Protestant Reformation. It is not heresy to both groups for God's sake, Apostle Peter said to baptize in Christ's name.

Jesus said to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but Peter gave us that name being filled with the Holy Spirit right then.

Acts 2:38-39

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

My point exactly. My father is a Southern Baptist and from everything I've seen, Baptists (of every variety) baptize in the name of Jesus Christ, as do other Protestant denominations. I don't understand, TrueJew...have you ever actually been exposed to faiths and churches in person for a reasonable length of time other than your own?

edit on 8/1/2013 by jcutler12888 because: (no reason given)

I visited a Protestant church a couple of times. One of the times my sister, under 18 at the time, was locked in a room and told that if she converted they would let her go. Which was very scary for our family who lost 20 family members to Jim Jones in 1978. We are now very careful with what church groups we visit.

I have friends and family who are Catholic and Protestant too. I have info on the beliefs of over 300 different Catholic/Protestant groups along with their articles of faith books. I would say that I have studied them well.

Any Baptist church that baptizes in the name of Christ is going against their articles of faith and is not truly baptist.

That's absolutely awful, I'm so sorry to hear about what was done to your sister and the loss of your family members. I don't mean to pry but when did that occur with your sister, what denomination of Protestantism was the church, and what area of the country was the church located?

And how old are you and how long have you been involved with your current church and denomination?

Do you believe your Catholic and Protestant friends are saved?

The statement that they're going against their own articles of faith and aren't truly Baptist isn't exactly true...see, Baptist ministers are all a little different, each and every one of them, from each other and they all seem to have their own particular way of relating the faith to their congregation. They also all baptize in different ways...some have baptismal pools in their church, some baptize in ponds, some baptize in rivers...some say "In the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit" and some say "In the name of Jesus Christ". That's one of the huge differences between Catholicism and Protestantism...Catholicism is all about tradition and formalities and doing things by their rules with no bending whatsoever, while Protestantism (especially Baptist churches) are more open to a sort of freestyle approach and open to interpretation by the minister and by the believer. I don't think I'm explaining this as well as I could, it's pretty late, but I hope you get the gist of what I'm saying.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Correct, it's a metaphorical title.

garbage in → garbage out

This is something you heard in Sunday school class or something, and not the product of you doing any research to discover if there is any truth to it other than just an oft repeated saying.

Okay. I'm not the one trying to push some esoteric understanding of a simple word (pun) to wiggle out of a verse that shreds my 16 century-old heresy to pieces.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

. . . my 16 century old heresy . . .

I didn't say anything about a heresy.
I'm talking about what these verses actually say, compared to all the things that people try to make it say.
So what you seem to be saying is that as long as you just accept whatever you are told by your cult, then that releases you from any obligation to study anything yourself, as if that is actually a good thing.

Back to what I said earlier about Logos being used for "plan", a good example is the story in Judges where this Israelite tribe makes a plan to kill all the inhabitants of one city that seems to be by itself where they had no allies to come to their aid if attacked. Their plan is described by the word, Logos, probably because it was something discussed among themselves, so rather than coming up with a word for whatever they were doing, this scheme, it just says, Logos.
Apparently it can be used as a synonym for Plan, because I don't know how else you could describe it, other than as a plan.
Like I said, this is one example out of many but seems like the one that is easiest to understand, to me.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

. . . my 16 century old heresy . . .

I didn't say anything about a heresy.
I'm talking about what these verses actually say, compared to all the things that people try to make it say.
So what you seem to be saying is that as long as you just accept whatever you are told by your cult, then that releases you from any obligation to study anything yourself, as if that is actually a good thing.

Alright, good chat. I'm glad we got that out of the way.

Is there anything else I can not explain for you?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Okay, that would be fine. But it's irrelevant in the book of John, which was written in Greek.

It is relevant since, like he said, English is the language that we are discussing in.
You were the one being "irrelevant" by introducing the Greek word for plan (actually a root word for design, but means incomplete).

edit on 2-8-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

A plan is a design.

Originally posted by jcutler12888
reply to post by jcutler12888

 

I don't mean to pry but when did that occur with your sister,

It's probably been around 25-27 years ago.

Originally posted by jcutler12888

what denomination of Protestantism was the church,

Assemblies of God

Originally posted by jcutler12888

and what area of the country was the church located?

Indiana

Originally posted by jcutler12888

And how old are you and how long have you been involved with your current church and denomination?

I am 34 almost 35. Born just a few months before the Jonestown suicides/murders. My grandparents began going to our current church in the 1940's, left to go to Jim Jones' church in the 1950's, switched back to our current church in the 1950's after they found out that Jim Jones was using raw chicken to fake cancer healings and saw other things they did not like. We have gone to the same church since then, except for when visiting other churches. I don't consider myself to be of the denomination though. I'm independently ordained.

Originally posted by jcutler12888

Do you believe your Catholic and Protestant friends are saved?

No.

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by jcutler12888
reply to post by jcutler12888

 

I don't mean to pry but when did that occur with your sister,

It's probably been around 25-27 years ago.

Originally posted by jcutler12888

what denomination of Protestantism was the church,

Assemblies of God

Originally posted by jcutler12888

and what area of the country was the church located?

Indiana

Originally posted by jcutler12888

And how old are you and how long have you been involved with your current church and denomination?

I am 34 almost 35. Born just a few months before the Jonestown suicides/murders. My grandparents began going to our current church in the 1940's, left to go to Jim Jones' church in the 1950's, switched back to our current church in the 1950's after they found out that Jim Jones was using raw chicken to fake cancer healings and saw other things they did not like. We have gone to the same church since then, except for when visiting other churches. I don't consider myself to be of the denomination though. I'm independently ordained.

Originally posted by jcutler12888

Do you believe your Catholic and Protestant friends are saved?

No.

Oh, so it wasn't recent...I hope it that awful experience didn't harm your sister in anyway.

Ah, the Assemblies of God...it's a sub-denomination of Pentacostalism. No offense to any Pentacostals present but...I've always found them to be a bit loopy (to say the least), as do many people. Definitely not a good choice for testing the waters of Protestantism. I've never been to Indiana but I've heard there isn't much in the Midwest outside of their few major cities so...maybe that kind of extremism pops up in more rural and isolated areas? I don't know, just a theory.

Wow, that's crazy that your family was involved with Jim Jones and the People's Temple and Jonestown...what do you think and how do you feel about your family being involved with a cult back then?

What denomination/church does your family go to that you don't identify with? I'm assuming it's not the Apolistic Messianic Movement that you follow, right? Isn't the AMM technically a form of Pentacostalism?How did you ordain yourself and into what faith did you ordain yourself? I've never heard of someone ordaining themselves unless it was over the Internet.

Why do you believe your Catholic and Protestant friends aren't saved? I know you've listed the only ways that you believe a person can be saved but do you really think that not even one of your Catholic and Protestant friends have truly accepted Jesus? Not even ONE?

Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. If only disbelievers would say yes. Our Lord says the same thing over
and over again through the centuries and each time in such a fresh and beautiful way. Proves He is divine. He
melts your heart.

I add, you can bookmark this site, these messages are important concerning Israel, the Pope and the time ahead...

Our Lord explains.... from "Jesus Is The Way"

+ + +

Jul17-2012
04. The Goal of the Kingdom of God

Jesus is the Way

Do not swerve to the right or the left, and allow no distractions to blind you even for one moment. Your eyes must be on the goal because eternal life or eternal death depends on this.

The world does not preach to you as I do. The world holds out its favors and says, “Choose among them. They are yours. The price is right.” In this way, you spend yourself on trifles and have nothing to show for it. I preach that you must sacrifice, that you must “Lose your life” and that all is to be given away for the kingdom.

“The kingdom of God”, that is your goal. This kingdom waits for you. It already comes into your heart if you want it. This kingdom is life, fullness of life. The greatest moment in a person’s life is when they find some goal that is worth living for and dying for. For every human being, without exception, that goal is the kingdom of God. Nothing else will do. Anything less is not worthy of you and cannot fill your heart created by God.


Jul18-2012
05. Walking in Darkness

Jesus is the Way

When you walk away from the kingdom, you walk in darkness, like someone who has turned their back to the sun. As you continue to walk away, life becomes cold and dark, because it is a life without the sun. Finally, it is night and the person wonders what to do.

They need only turn around. The sun has not moved. Yet, so many forces say, “Keep moving. It is better ahead. You will come out of this” but all of this is a lie. Time is wasted. Opportunities to return are squandered. Even the memories of what it was like to live in the light vanish. No stirring for the light exists. The person is dead even though they are still alive.

The world is filled with these persons from whom the Spirit of life has long since departed. That is why I give these messages. I hold out a ray of hope. This is a final chance, the choice before the final moment when I will come for you. Repent now and live again.


locutions.org...

Originally posted by jcutler12888

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by jcutler12888
reply to post by jcutler12888

 

I don't mean to pry but when did that occur with your sister,

It's probably been around 25-27 years ago.

Originally posted by jcutler12888

what denomination of Protestantism was the church,

Assemblies of God

Originally posted by jcutler12888

and what area of the country was the church located?

Indiana

Originally posted by jcutler12888

And how old are you and how long have you been involved with your current church and denomination?

I am 34 almost 35. Born just a few months before the Jonestown suicides/murders. My grandparents began going to our current church in the 1940's, left to go to Jim Jones' church in the 1950's, switched back to our current church in the 1950's after they found out that Jim Jones was using raw chicken to fake cancer healings and saw other things they did not like. We have gone to the same church since then, except for when visiting other churches. I don't consider myself to be of the denomination though. I'm independently ordained.

Originally posted by jcutler12888

Do you believe your Catholic and Protestant friends are saved?

No.

Oh, so it wasn't recent...I hope it that awful experience didn't harm your sister in anyway.

Ah, the Assemblies of God...it's a sub-denomination of Pentacostalism. No offense to any Pentacostals present but...I've always found them to be a bit loopy (to say the least), as do many people. Definitely not a good choice for testing the waters of Protestantism. I've never been to Indiana but I've heard there isn't much in the Midwest outside of their few major cities so...maybe that kind of extremism pops up in more rural and isolated areas? I don't know, just a theory.

Wow, that's crazy that your family was involved with Jim Jones and the People's Temple and Jonestown...what do you think and how do you feel about your family being involved with a cult back then?

What denomination/church does your family go to that you don't identify with? I'm assuming it's not the Apolistic Messianic Movement that you follow, right? Isn't the AMM technically a form of Pentacostalism?How did you ordain yourself and into what faith did you ordain yourself? I've never heard of someone ordaining themselves unless it was over the Internet.

Why do you believe your Catholic and Protestant friends aren't saved? I know you've listed the only ways that you believe a person can be saved but do you really think that not even one of your Catholic and Protestant friends have truly accepted Jesus? Not even ONE?

Some of my family left the faith for Assemblies. I hear of quite a few fallen away Catholics belonging to AOG. What is the draw?

reply to post by NOTurTypical

A plan is a design.

These are things that you can find out by using lexicons, and was not my central point, discussing the meaning of that word, but what was, is why you brought that word into the conversation in the first place.
Taking a word in English that someone is using in a conversation, and then throwing out what you think is a Greek equivalent, is really just a form of sabotage, and adds nothing to your argument.

and btw: the New Testament doesn't use that word in the way that you are thinking anyway.

Originally posted by jcutler12888
reply to post by jcutler12888

 

Wow, that's crazy that your family was involved with Jim Jones and the People's Temple and Jonestown...what do you think and how do you feel about your family being involved with a cult back then?

It is sad.

Originally posted by jcutler12888

What denomination/church does your family go to that you don't identify with?

UPCI

Originally posted by jcutler12888

How did you ordain yourself and into what faith did you ordain yourself?

I did not ordain myself. It is through an independent church.

Originally posted by jcutler12888

Why do you believe your Catholic and Protestant friends aren't saved? I know you've listed the only ways that you believe a person can be saved but do you really think that not even one of your Catholic and Protestant friends have truly accepted Jesus? Not even ONE?

To accept Jesus is to be born again.

reply to post by truejew

It is sad.

I used to live where the Jones cult were when they moved north from Oakland.
I was friends for a while with one of the former members.
If you are one of those people, you can't say anything critical about the group or its former leader, otherwise something bad will happen to you.

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by jcutler12888
reply to post by jcutler12888

 

Wow, that's crazy that your family was involved with Jim Jones and the People's Temple and Jonestown...what do you think and how do you feel about your family being involved with a cult back then?

It is sad.

Originally posted by jcutler12888

What denomination/church does your family go to that you don't identify with?

UPCI

Originally posted by jcutler12888

How did you ordain yourself and into what faith did you ordain yourself?

I did not ordain myself. It is through an independent church.

Originally posted by jcutler12888

Why do you believe your Catholic and Protestant friends aren't saved? I know you've listed the only ways that you believe a person can be saved but do you really think that not even one of your Catholic and Protestant friends have truly accepted Jesus? Not even ONE?

To accept Jesus is to be born again.

edit on 2-8-2013 by truejew because: Fixed code

You're right, it is sad. I'm sorry.

Ah, United Pentecostal. I see...

Oh, I thought when you said independently, you meant you did it yourself.

I know that's the only way to be born again but I think you missed my question. You don't believe any of your Catholic and Protestant friends have accepted Jesus?

reply to post by jcutler12888


No, they are not baptized in Jesus name or filled with the Holy Spirit.

Originally posted by truejew
reply to post by jcutler12888

 

No, they are not baptized in Jesus name or filled with the Holy Spirit.

Then what convicts us of sin? What causes us to put our trust in Christ as our Savior? How do we proclaim that Jesus is Lord?