Protestant disinfo debunked-Catholics are also Christians

Originally posted by truejew
you are in the same position we are.

No, I am not, because your theatrical theology, as demonstrated clearly, makes a mess out of the Bible. The text of John 1:1-2 itself is proof that there are at least two persons in the trinity -- it makes zero sense if there is one person with different roles.

Accept the trinity or reject John 1:1-2, it's your choice. (I know you'll just say that you don't reject John and Modalism works with it, but you're just lying to yourself if you think that "Jesus was with Jesus" makes any sense.)

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by truejew
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Whatever you think of me, you should apologize to Colbe.

No I shouldn't because I didn't do any injustice to her. She was attacking Protestants and it was unnecessary.

A Christian would apologize.

Now you are judging my relationship with Christ? I don't have anything to apologize for, I didn't call her a name.

Originally posted by truejew
The correct Modalism John 1:1-2 would be...

In the beginning was the plan of the Son of God, and the plan of the Son of God was with Jesus, and the plan of the Son of God was Jesus. The plan of the Son of God was with Jesus in the beginning. (John 1:1-2 NIV)

Nope, you can't do that, because "He" in verse two is a personal pronoun, so it can't be replaced with an impersonal article like "The plan of the Son of God". You can replace "the Word" with it (though that's obviously not what John meant) but you cannot replace "He" with it, so your passage is:

In the beginning was the plan of the Son of God, and the plan of the Son of God was with Jesus, and the plan of the Son of God was Jesus. Jesus was with Jesus in the beginning. (John 1:1-2 NIV)

Still a complete mess and fail.

reply to post by adjensen


Lol, do one of those with His prayer in the garden.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by truejew
you are in the same position we are.

No, I am not, because your theatrical theology, as demonstrated clearly, makes a mess out of the Bible. The text of John 1:1-2 itself is proof that there are at least two persons in the trinity -- it makes zero sense if there is one person with different roles.

Accept the trinity or reject John 1:1-2, it's your choice. (I know you'll just say that you don't reject John and Modalism works with it, but you're just lying to yourself if you think that "Jesus was with Jesus" makes any sense.)

I think it is possible to interpret John1:1-2 without going against other Scriptures by adding a second god or a second Jesus.

reply to post by adjensen


At this point I would point out the significance of the personal pronoun in Greek, but I don't think it would matter.

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by jcutler12888

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by colbe

Yours one sentence is so specific "holocausts", what holocausts?

Are you denying that the holocaust, led by a Catholic Hitler, took place?

No, no, no...you can't blame the Holocaust on Catholicism just because Hitler CLAIMED to be a Catholic. He believed Jews were subhuman and that all forms of Protestantism was for weaklings...he was merely impressed by the power the Catholic Church held and claimed to be a Catholic/Christian because he would say anything to make the people like him. He also buddied up to the Vatican with his lies to gain support and power but he wasn't truly a Catholic at all. Catholics and clergy were killed in concentration/death camps as a part of Hitler's religious persecution...he was, in fact, an irreligious man who only believed in a German/Aryan "God".

HE WAS A MADMAN...his lies about his religious views mean nothing because they were just lies. So, if you were to alter your statement to say "Are you denying that the Holocaust, led by a madman Hitler, took place?", you would then be correct.

edit on 8/1/2013 by jcutler12888 because: (no reason given)

I would like to agree with you, but the holocaust was not just a one time thing. Catholics and Protestants have been murdering Jews, both naturally born and spiritual, and others that they accuse as "heretics", "witches", "cultists"... throughout its history.

Yeah, they also killed each other and their own under the same terms...as have Jews and Muslims as well. What you're failing to see is that under those terms, NONE of the Abrahamic faiths' hands are clean. The flaw in that argument is that you're ascribing the actions of few to many...just because a group of Protestants did something terrible doesn't mean all Protestants are guilty of that specific group's crimes, and that applies to Catholics, Jews, and Muslims.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jcutler12888

 

And what people don't know or fail to put into the equation is that Hitler was a master of propaganda and said it should always be aimed at the masses. When Hitler was speaking to the people, who were 80% Christian, he acted and spoke fondly of Christians/Christianity. However, when speaking to his inner circle, and friends he spoke about hating Christianity and the Jews.

Hitler was a liar who knew how to fool the masses.

Exactly. That's what I was trying to say...he was a rampant propagandist. He played up the Christianity card for the masses and showed his true colors in private, which was extensively documented.

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jcutler12888

 

And what people don't know or fail to put into the equation is that Hitler was a master of propaganda and said it should always be aimed at the masses. When Hitler was speaking to the people, who were 80% Christian, he acted and spoke fondly of Christians/Christianity. However, when speaking to his inner circle, and friends he spoke about hating Christianity and the Jews.

Hitler was a liar who knew how to fool the masses.

Sounds like a Catholic to me. They play Christianity on the outside, but inwardly are wolves.

Truejew, that's a TERRIBLE thing for you to say! It's discriminatory and generalizes BILLIONS of people and it's not fair. My mother is Roman Catholic...are you trying to say that she, a woman you've never met, is not truly a Christian but is "inwardly a wolf"? Shame on you, those are hurtful words directed at many good Christians you've never met and they weaken and discredit your argument.

Originally posted by jcutler12888

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by jcutler12888

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by colbe

Yours one sentence is so specific "holocausts", what holocausts?

Are you denying that the holocaust, led by a Catholic Hitler, took place?

No, no, no...you can't blame the Holocaust on Catholicism just because Hitler CLAIMED to be a Catholic. He believed Jews were subhuman and that all forms of Protestantism was for weaklings...he was merely impressed by the power the Catholic Church held and claimed to be a Catholic/Christian because he would say anything to make the people like him. He also buddied up to the Vatican with his lies to gain support and power but he wasn't truly a Catholic at all. Catholics and clergy were killed in concentration/death camps as a part of Hitler's religious persecution...he was, in fact, an irreligious man who only believed in a German/Aryan "God".

HE WAS A MADMAN...his lies about his religious views mean nothing because they were just lies. So, if you were to alter your statement to say "Are you denying that the Holocaust, led by a madman Hitler, took place?", you would then be correct.

edit on 8/1/2013 by jcutler12888 because: (no reason given)

I would like to agree with you, but the holocaust was not just a one time thing. Catholics and Protestants have been murdering Jews, both naturally born and spiritual, and others that they accuse as "heretics", "witches", "cultists"... throughout its history.

Yeah, they also been killed each other and their own under the same terms...as have Jews and Muslims as well. What you're failing to see is that under those terms, NONE of the Abrahamic faiths' hands are clean. The flaw in that argument is that you're ascribing the actions of few to many...just because a group of Protestants did something terrible doesn't mean all Protestants are guilty of that specific group's crimes, and that applies to Catholics, Jews, and Muslims.

Christianity's hands are clean, but Catholicism/Protestantism is not Christianity.

Originally posted by jcutler12888

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jcutler12888

 

And what people don't know or fail to put into the equation is that Hitler was a master of propaganda and said it should always be aimed at the masses. When Hitler was speaking to the people, who were 80% Christian, he acted and spoke fondly of Christians/Christianity. However, when speaking to his inner circle, and friends he spoke about hating Christianity and the Jews.

Hitler was a liar who knew how to fool the masses.

Sounds like a Catholic to me. They play Christianity on the outside, but inwardly are wolves.

Truejew, that's a TERRIBLE thing for you to say! It's discriminatory and generalizes BILLIONS of people and it's not fair. My mother is Roman Catholic...are you trying to say that she, a woman you've never met, is not truly a Christian but is "inwardly a wolf"? Shame on you, those are hurtful words directed at many good Christians you've never met and they weaken and discredit your argument.

I meant the leaders.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by adjensen

 

At this point I would point out the significance of the personal pronoun in Greek, but I don't think it would matter.

Due to the Plan of the Son of God being God Himself there would be a personal pronoun in Greek. Again, John 1:1-2 was not meant to teach another god or another Jesus.

Originally posted by truejew
I think it is possible to interpret John1:1-2 without going against other Scriptures by adding a second god or a second Jesus.

As there is no second god, or second Jesus ( ) the correct, trinitarian, interpretation of John 1:1-2 does not go against scripture.

And, as you and I have demonstrated, attempting to apply Modalism to it makes it a complete mess.

Originally posted by truejew
Due to the Plan of the Son of God being God Himself there would be a personal pronoun in Greek.

So now you're claiming that God is a non-personal object?

Wow, I'm not even sure what heresy that would equate to.

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by jcutler12888

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by jcutler12888

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by colbe

Yours one sentence is so specific "holocausts", what holocausts?

Are you denying that the holocaust, led by a Catholic Hitler, took place?

No, no, no...you can't blame the Holocaust on Catholicism just because Hitler CLAIMED to be a Catholic. He believed Jews were subhuman and that all forms of Protestantism was for weaklings...he was merely impressed by the power the Catholic Church held and claimed to be a Catholic/Christian because he would say anything to make the people like him. He also buddied up to the Vatican with his lies to gain support and power but he wasn't truly a Catholic at all. Catholics and clergy were killed in concentration/death camps as a part of Hitler's religious persecution...he was, in fact, an irreligious man who only believed in a German/Aryan "God".

HE WAS A MADMAN...his lies about his religious views mean nothing because they were just lies. So, if you were to alter your statement to say "Are you denying that the Holocaust, led by a madman Hitler, took place?", you would then be correct.

edit on 8/1/2013 by jcutler12888 because: (no reason given)

I would like to agree with you, but the holocaust was not just a one time thing. Catholics and Protestants have been murdering Jews, both naturally born and spiritual, and others that they accuse as "heretics", "witches", "cultists"... throughout its history.

Yeah, they also been killed each other and their own under the same terms...as have Jews and Muslims as well. What you're failing to see is that under those terms, NONE of the Abrahamic faiths' hands are clean. The flaw in that argument is that you're ascribing the actions of few to many...just because a group of Protestants did something terrible doesn't mean all Protestants are guilty of that specific group's crimes, and that applies to Catholics, Jews, and Muslims.

Christianity's hands are clean, but Catholicism/Protestantism is not Christianity.

TJ, there are BILLIONS of Catholics and Protestants who are true Christians. HEY, I JUST REMEMBERED THAT THIS IS WHAT WE DISCUSSED ON THAT OTHER THREAD!!! Okay, anyway, here's the thing (which I've said to you before)...it is not up to you to say who is and isn't a Christian, no matter what denomination they follow. You don't truly know the heart of anyone, especially billions of people you've never met, so you can't go around making these ignorant, narrow-minded proclamations about the status of other people's faith.

Originally posted by jcutler12888

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by jcutler12888

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by jcutler12888

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by colbe

Yours one sentence is so specific "holocausts", what holocausts?

Are you denying that the holocaust, led by a Catholic Hitler, took place?

No, no, no...you can't blame the Holocaust on Catholicism just because Hitler CLAIMED to be a Catholic. He believed Jews were subhuman and that all forms of Protestantism was for weaklings...he was merely impressed by the power the Catholic Church held and claimed to be a Catholic/Christian because he would say anything to make the people like him. He also buddied up to the Vatican with his lies to gain support and power but he wasn't truly a Catholic at all. Catholics and clergy were killed in concentration/death camps as a part of Hitler's religious persecution...he was, in fact, an irreligious man who only believed in a German/Aryan "God".

HE WAS A MADMAN...his lies about his religious views mean nothing because they were just lies. So, if you were to alter your statement to say "Are you denying that the Holocaust, led by a madman Hitler, took place?", you would then be correct.

edit on 8/1/2013 by jcutler12888 because: (no reason given)

I would like to agree with you, but the holocaust was not just a one time thing. Catholics and Protestants have been murdering Jews, both naturally born and spiritual, and others that they accuse as "heretics", "witches", "cultists"... throughout its history.

Yeah, they also been killed each other and their own under the same terms...as have Jews and Muslims as well. What you're failing to see is that under those terms, NONE of the Abrahamic faiths' hands are clean. The flaw in that argument is that you're ascribing the actions of few to many...just because a group of Protestants did something terrible doesn't mean all Protestants are guilty of that specific group's crimes, and that applies to Catholics, Jews, and Muslims.

Christianity's hands are clean, but Catholicism/Protestantism is not Christianity.

TJ, there are BILLIONS of Catholics and Protestants who are true Christians. HEY, I JUST REMEMBERED THAT THIS IS WHAT WE DISCUSSED ON THAT OTHER THREAD!!! Okay, anyway, here's the thing (which I've said to you before)...it is not up to you to say who is and isn't a Christian, no matter what denomination they follow. You don't truly know the heart of anyone, especially billions of people you've never met, so you can't go around making these ignorant, narrow-minded proclamations about the status of other people's faith.

edit on 8/1/2013 by jcutler12888 because: (no reason given)

To be a Christian, one must be born of the water and the Spirit like Jesus said.

Originally posted by truejew
To be a Christian, one must be born of the water and the Spirit like Jesus said.

To be a Christian, one must believe in the statements of the Nicene Creed. That has been the definition of "Christian" for 1600 years, and your little cult can't redefine the word and take it for yourselves, any more than I can say that an American is someone who was born in Brazil and lives on the moon, and therefore you are not an American.

reply to post by adjensen


The trinitarian version of John 1:1-2 makes a mess...

In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus, who is not God, was with Jesus, who is God, and Jesus, who is God, was God. Jesus, who is not God, was with Jesus, who is God in the beginning. (John 1:1-2 NIV)

So there are two Jesus'. One God the other not God.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by truejew
To be a Christian, one must be born of the water and the Spirit like Jesus said.

To be a Christian, one must believe in the statements of the Nicene Creed. That has been the definition of "Christian" for 1600 years, and your little cult can't redefine the word and take it for yourselves, any more than I can say that an American is someone who was born in Brazil and lives on the moon, and therefore you are not an American.

I'll take Jesus' definition of Christian.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by truejew
Due to the Plan of the Son of God being God Himself there would be a personal pronoun in Greek.

So now you're claiming that God is a non-personal object?

Wow, I'm not even sure what heresy that would equate to.

The Messieh is not a non-personal object.