Protestant disinfo debunked-Catholics are also Christians

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

??? What the?

Can you read? Did I say that?

I said that "Word" refers to the Messieh.

You then said no it refers to Jesus.

reply to post by truejew


I know you're not that stupid that you can't follow a simple dialogue so I'm forced to assume you're reflecting. The original point was you're capitalization of the word "plan", and ascribing personal characteristics to that word.

Quit deflecting by playing stupid.

Originally posted by truejew
reply to post by jcutler12888

 

If the priest/minister does baptize in the name of Christ, they are not really Catholic/Protestant since that baptism is considered to be heresy to both groups.

That's funny. I go to a missionary baptist church, but am nondenominational. My wife is the baptist, yet our preacher baptized me in the name of Jesus Christ. Unless I missed something, baptists, southern baptists and missionary baptists came out of the Protestant Reformation. It is not heresy to both groups for God's sake, Apostle Peter said to baptize in Christ's name.

Jesus said to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but Peter gave us that name being filled with the Holy Spirit right then.

Acts 2:38-39

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by truejew
reply to post by jcutler12888

 

If the priest/minister does baptize in the name of Christ, they are not really Catholic/Protestant since that baptism is considered to be heresy to both groups.

That's funny. I go to a missionary baptist church, but am nondenominational. My wife is the baptist, yet our preacher baptized me in the name of Jesus Christ. Unless I missed something, baptists, southern baptists and missionary baptists came out of the Protestant Reformation. It is not heresy to both groups for God's sake, Apostle Peter said to baptize in Christ's name.

Jesus said to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but Peter gave us that name being filled with the Holy Spirit right then.

Acts 2:38-39

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

My point exactly. My father is a Southern Baptist and from everything I've seen, Baptists (of every variety) baptize in the name of Jesus Christ, as do other Protestant denominations. I don't understand, TrueJew...have you ever actually been exposed to faiths and churches in person for a reasonable length of time other than your own?

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Um, Word, (Logos), is a metaphorical title John ascribes to Jesus, the Son of God.

You may think that but the reality of it only exists inside your own imagination.
The Greek word λόγος is used in the Bible to describe a lot of things, but never a person, except in Revelation where the "word of God" is personified in a fantastic vision.
I went to a lot of trouble to go through the entire Greek Old Testament to find every occurrence of the word Logos, and it never is used to describe a person in there. You can check the list on my blog,
Reading the Bible in Greek

Originally posted by jmdewey60
I went to a lot of trouble to go through the entire Greek Old Testament to find every occurrence of the word Logos, and it never is used to describe a person in there.

What difference does that make? Read John 1:1-3

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. (John 1:1-3 NIV)

"He" and "him" are referencing "the Word", someone that is God, and can be with God, i.e.: Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Um, Word, (Logos), is a metaphorical title John ascribes to Jesus, the Son of God.

You may think that but the reality of it only exists inside your own imagination.
The Greek word λόγος is used in the Bible to describe a lot of things, but never a person, except in Revelation where the "word of God" is personified in a fantastic vision.
I went to a lot of trouble to go through the entire Greek Old Testament to find every occurrence of the word Logos, and it never is used to describe a person in there. You can check the list on my blog,
Reading the Bible in Greek

edit on 1-8-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Yeah,.. I really don't think that John, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit when writing the Gospel according to John, was in the habit of using reification fallacies in his writing. Seems like the Holy Spirit wouldn't make a fallacy of logic.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by jmdewey60
I went to a lot of trouble to go through the entire Greek Old Testament to find every occurrence of the word Logos, and it never is used to describe a person in there.

What difference does that make? Read John 1:1-3

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. (John 1:1-3 NIV)

"He" and "him" are referencing "the Word", someone that is God, and can be with God, i.e.: Jesus Christ.

Correct, it's a metaphorical title.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Seems like the Holy Spirit wouldn't make a fallacy of logic.

You are good at making these little pithy quips without filling in any detail that would make them mean anything to where they would be of any use to explaining why you are right and whoever you are dialoging with is wrong.
I would suggest that you just repeat whatever your cult leader says, without ever investing any energy to thinking the thing through yourself.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

I know you're not that stupid that you can't follow a simple dialogue so I'm forced to assume you're reflecting. The original point was you're capitalization of the word "plan", and ascribing personal characteristics to that word.

Quit deflecting by playing stupid.

Isn't it Scripture that capitalizes the "Word"?


John 1:1-2 KJV
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [2] The same was in the beginning with God.

It is not pantheism when word/plan is capitalized when it refers to the Messieh who "was God".

Perhaps it was just in error then that you said Jesus was not the Messieh?

reply to post by truejew


Plan (Schedio) is not a synonym for Word (Logos). Especially in Greek.

reply to post by jmdewey60


It's not my job go educate you. You can Google what the fallacy of reification is and apply that to your post that I made that response in. John was using Logos as a metaphorical title for Jesus. That's even obvious in English which is drastically less precise than the Greek.

reply to post by adjensen

"He" and "him" are referencing "the Word", someone that is God, and can be with God, i.e.: Jesus Christ.

The word here that normally gets translated in this verse as "he" is the Greek word, οὗτος, which means basically, "this", so can be translated as he, she, it, or this.
I gets made into "he" for a purpose, which is to support the trinity doctrine by making the Logos seem to be a person, who you are supposed to by logic assume is Jesus.
Because that is the common usage does nor make it correct.
It fits better to mean the will of God to have things come into being, such as the truth being spread about concerning things like the nature of God and His requirements for righteousness and salvation.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

John was using Logos as a metaphorical title for Jesus.

How is that "obvious"?
And citing supposed fallacies is meaningless unless you say how it applies.
I think that you suffer from the fallacy that citing a name of a fallacy actually makes a point, all by itself.
You should try to make progress beyond what you learned in high school debate class, it's really sad.

Originally posted by jcutler12888

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by truejew
reply to post by jcutler12888

 

If the priest/minister does baptize in the name of Christ, they are not really Catholic/Protestant since that baptism is considered to be heresy to both groups.

That's funny. I go to a missionary baptist church, but am nondenominational. My wife is the baptist, yet our preacher baptized me in the name of Jesus Christ. Unless I missed something, baptists, southern baptists and missionary baptists came out of the Protestant Reformation. It is not heresy to both groups for God's sake, Apostle Peter said to baptize in Christ's name.

Jesus said to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but Peter gave us that name being filled with the Holy Spirit right then.

Acts 2:38-39

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

My point exactly. My father is a Southern Baptist and from everything I've seen, Baptists (of every variety) baptize in the name of Jesus Christ, as do other Protestant denominations. I don't understand, TrueJew...have you ever actually been exposed to faiths and churches in person for a reasonable length of time other than your own?

edit on 8/1/2013 by jcutler12888 because: (no reason given)

I visited a Protestant church a couple of times. One of the times my sister, under 18 at the time, was locked in a room and told that if she converted they would let her go. Which was very scary for our family who lost 20 family members to Jim Jones in 1978. We are now very careful with what church groups we visit.

I have friends and family who are Catholic and Protestant too. I have info on the beliefs of over 300 different Catholic/Protestant groups along with their articles of faith books. I would say that I have studied them well.

Any Baptist church that baptizes in the name of Christ is going against their articles of faith and is not truly baptist.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Correct, it's a metaphorical title.

garbage in → garbage out

This is something you heard in Sunday school class or something, and not the product of you doing any research to discover if there is any truth to it other than just an oft repeated saying.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

Plan (Schedio) is not a synonym for Word (Logos). Especially in Greek.

It can be in English. Which is what I am speaking.

reply to post by adjensen

Nope, you can't do that, because "He" in verse two is a personal pronoun, so it can't be replaced with an impersonal article like "The plan of the Son of God". You can replace "the Word" with it (though that's obviously not what John meant) but you cannot replace "He" with it, so your passage is:

Actually you can, if you go back to the original Greek and translate it into English with "it" instead of "He".
You are making an argument based on someone's interpretation of what the context is.
It can go either way, depending on whether you think it means a person or not.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by adjensen

 

Nope, you can't do that, because "He" in verse two is a personal pronoun, so it can't be replaced with an impersonal article like "The plan of the Son of God". You can replace "the Word" with it (though that's obviously not what John meant) but you cannot replace "He" with it, so your passage is:

Actually you can, if you go back to the original Greek and translate it into English with "it" instead of "He".
You are making an argument based on someone's interpretation of what the context is.
It can go either way, depending on whether you think it means a person or not.

I haven't ever seen a translation that doesn't equate "the Word" with a person, so either you're a better translator than anyone else in the history of the world, or you're wrong.

Sorry, Dewey, I'm going with the latter.

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

Plan (Schedio) is not a synonym for Word (Logos). Especially in Greek.

It can be in English. Which is what I am speaking.

Okay, that would be fine. But it's irrelevant in the book of Jobn, which was written in Greek.