The Crucifixion: A Medical Perspective

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by the2ofusr1

 

It's unfortunate the way some Christians alienate themselves and others with repetitive rhetoric. While I don't agree that all Christians believe in the resurrection, I am happy to declare that I'm not a Christian.

It took many, many years to come to that point. Like Magnumopus, I have read many books, but not so much on ancient medicine, and my mathematical understanding is somewhat abstract, but I have studied Pythagoras, the mystery schools, alternative theology and mythology and Jewish mysticism.

My abandonment of Christianity was the result of much soul seeking, meditation and prayer. I have met "Jesus" and that is why I can no longer, in good faith, call myself a Christian.

Certainly, this theme of Jesus died is just rhetoric. Those seeking the rhetoric can only read one book.

And those that read lots of books, as you and others have, discover the reality and move beyond rhetoric to truth. The truth one finds is Jesus didn't die on a tree, just survived the ordeal.

Good Job in being able to read more than one book, as all should do the same.

Dr. Carl McCurty detailing the crucifixion from a medical perspective:

Roman Scourging:

***ATTENTION***

Address the topic - The Crucifixion: A Medical Perspective - not each other.

It's really not a hard concept to grasp. Those who fail to get it will be post-banned until they do.

Civility and Decorum is required

The recent surge in Hatred, Racism, and Sheer Stupidity STOPS NOW

Ah yes, burns from a whipping that causes the formation of lymph fluid under the skin.

Thus, it can be a source for the clear liquid along with the blood. One easy to mention and associate.

Good job as showing the clear liquid could easily be from the whip burns and the accumulation of clear liquid under the skin.


And we know doctors really don't like talking about the power of Myrrh, as it isn't profitable.

But it would be truthful.

An accurate depiction of the Roman scourging/flogging process:







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In order to declair "an accurate discription"----someone has to be there to witness the whipping of Jesus. Don't think anyone living today can supply the video of that time.

Last time I looked these Roman whips wrapped around the torso, leaving massive burns clear around to the front of the torso.

Massive whip burns make massive Lymph fluid build up and lots of water looking things run out, when the skin is pierced. Such trama makes people pass out. Shallow breathing, near death, yet not.

Such trauma is treated with Myrrh, as the Romans have done and the Greeks started medicine 500 years previous for wound care.


It is pure loose conjecture to assume Jesus died, had brain death. It is called impossible to consider.

Show us the doctor that saw brain death and the person survived. It doesn't happen.

reply to post by MagnumOpus


There are scores of historical descriptions of the practice and protocols for Roman scourging and crucifixion. The list of historians from the Empire who wrote about it is extensive. And the beating with reeds to soften the skin was done prior to the flogging/scourging with the whips. The flaying done by the whips ripped open the flesh down to the muscle fiber and tissue, the skin was ripped to shreds, and this deep penetration of the whips with bone or pieces of metal severed muscle tissue and veins causuing the massive amount of blood loss.

The cause of death was "asphyxiation exasperated by hypovolemic shock". (hypo = blood, volemic = volume) that's what caused the clear fluid to accumulate in the pericardial and pleural membranes. This hastened the death by asphyxiation. The presence of "blood and water" attested to by the eye-witnesses indicates there was pericardial and pleural effusions inside the corpse of Christ that were punctured when the spear head entered the thoracic (chest) cavity.

The reality is dead people with brain death don't recover.

You worship is of a dead man.

The definition of your religion, due to this, is that it is dead. It is a failed concept the world rejects.

All this stuff you propose is pure conjecture, no proof of anything, not even a good postulation.


I find it not credible, and so does the larger part of the world.

reply to post by MagnumOpus


It is mere conjecture on the basis that we don't have a body to look at to determine a cause of death. On the other hand, the postulation is a good one for the fact that your heart does produce more fluid in your pericardial sac when you go into hypovolemic shock. There are other areas of your body the do this too like your lungs and even your diaphragm. That is scientifically sound, albeit it's not "water".

Originally posted by novastrike81
reply to post by MagnumOpus

 

It is mere conjecture on the basis that we don't have a body to look at to determine a cause of death. On the other hand, the postulation is a good one for the fact that your heart does produce more fluid in your pericardial sac when you go into hypovolemic shock. There are other areas of your body the do this too like your lungs and even your diaphragm. That is scientifically sound, albeit it's not "water".

A conjecture that promotes the idea of dead and brain death via heart death isn't sound if any MD suggests the person came back to life.

It could be a cause of death, and then the end of the story. Jesus ceased to exist at that point, if that were the case.

Most consider he survived, as in didn't die.

Morality is about honesty, and that includes keeping the explanations in the realm of realities and not engaging in any fantasy land imagination games.

Originally posted by novastrike81
reply to post by MagnumOpus

 

It is mere conjecture on the basis that we don't have a body to look at to determine a cause of death. On the other hand, the postulation is a good one for the fact that your heart does produce more fluid in your pericardial sac when you go into hypovolemic shock. There are other areas of your body the do this too like your lungs and even your diaphragm. That is scientifically sound, albeit it's not "water".

There can be no determination of death, when you have a living person as the patient!

Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Luk 24:40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

Luk 24:41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?

Luk 24:42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.

Luk 24:43 And he took it, and did eat before them

Dead people DO NOT get up and walk around, talk and eat, and presumably "go to stool thereon!"

reply to post by MagnumOpus


I wasn't suggesting he came back to life. All of the indications point to him dying like a normal human being. I realize that's not what the scripture indicates. This is why I believe Jesus was just a man like you and me.

reply to post by windword


I agree with what you're saying. You can't determine a cause of death if he wasn't dead. From a medical perspective everything sounds right. If you puncture the pericardial sac during hypovolemia, then you'll see that fluid that looks like water.

I think the resurrection is an embellished story, or Jesus didn't die on the cross. Only his disciples saw him after he was crucified.

Originally posted by MagnumOpus
The reality is dead people with brain death don't recover.

You worship is of a dead man.

The definition of your religion, due to this, is that it is dead. It is a failed concept the world rejects.

All this stuff you propose is pure conjecture, no proof of anything, not even a good postulation.


I find it not credible, and so does the larger part of the world.

You're free to do that, nothing new. That's been going on since the first century.

Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by novastrike81
reply to post by MagnumOpus

 

It is mere conjecture on the basis that we don't have a body to look at to determine a cause of death. On the other hand, the postulation is a good one for the fact that your heart does produce more fluid in your pericardial sac when you go into hypovolemic shock. There are other areas of your body the do this too like your lungs and even your diaphragm. That is scientifically sound, albeit it's not "water".

There can be no determination of death, when you have a living person as the patient!

Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Luk 24:40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

Luk 24:41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?

Luk 24:42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.

Luk 24:43 And he took it, and did eat before them

Dead people DO NOT get up and walk around, talk and eat, and presumably "go to stool thereon!"

You realize we believe He resurrected from the dead correct? And all His direct disciples died horrendous deaths from refusing to recant that He resurrected from the dead except John? His own brothers became believers AFTER the resurrection, not before and James pastored the church at Jerusalem. His own mother worshiped Him.

Do you realize what it would take for any of our brothers and mothers to worship us? Then those same brothers refusing to recant while the executioners blade was being sharpened to remove your head?

I want to thank you NuT for this thread ....Far to often we gloss over elements of the physical suffering our Lord ..To the natural man and his mythological hero's Jesus fails ...To the spiritual man, there could be no greater hero than Jesus ...Not a myth but a real person with a mother and brothers ...We are not told of any close friends He may have had before the cross but it is certain that there have been many past and many present that would sooner leave this life than to deny the one that paid such a price to redeem us to God ..I cant offer any medical analysis to his suffering to the benefit of this thread and there probably wont be many that can. But I can sure thank you and thank all that would consider what history has spoke about in these ancient documents we call the word of God ..And most of all I thank Him ...peace

Originally posted by the2ofusr1
I want to thank you NuT for this thread ....Far to often we gloss over elements of the physical suffering our Lord ..To the natural man and his mythological hero's Jesus fails ...To the spiritual man, there could be no greater hero than Jesus ...Not a myth but a real person with a mother and brothers ...We are not told of any close friends He may have had before the cross but it is certain that there have been many past and many present that would sooner leave this life than to deny the one that paid such a price to redeem us to God ..I cant offer any medical analysis to his suffering to the benefit of this thread and there probably wont be many that can. But I can sure thank you and thank all that would consider what history has spoke about in these ancient documents we call the word of God ..And most of all I thank Him ...peace

Amen. Praise the Lord. But the purpose of this thread wasn't really to glorify His pain, but to challenge folks who tried to claim He didn't die. When all the details in scripture not only say He died, but are descriptive enough for trauma surgeons and world-renowned pathologists to give the exact cause of death. I also hear people mock that He died so fast, but based on the hypovolemic shock His death would have been very rapid. Pilate marveled at how fast He died, but Pilate had no idea the crown of thorns was placed on His head then beaten with a rod.

Scalp wounds are EXTREMELY bloody. Massive amount of blood is lost with a scalp wound.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Dear, dear Nut,

Worship is a loose term. I absolutely worship the ground my daughter walks on. She has managed to attain 3 PHDs, a position in a world renown lab, and is a professor at UCLA, all on her own, without family help.

Many a tween worships Justin Bieber.

I do realize that you believe that Jesus rose from the dead. That requires pure faith. Unfortunately, when you post on ATS you are placing your faith in a vulnerable position to those who would dispute the logic of your faith.

You're attempting to convince us your faith is valid based on a pathologist's diagnosis that he is incapable of giving. I know that you don't need our reinforcement and you are intent on reaching those who are undecided.

Here's the thing. There are actually 2 schools of thought.
1) Jesus died for the sins of the world, was resurrected and is god.
20 Jesus was a profound teacher and healer, inspired by enlightenment, possibly an ascended master. He was intent on re-establishing a divine status quo. His life and teachings are more important than his death, as everyone dies.

No number of threads authored by you or anyone else will change the minds that are already made up.

You can have your faith, but when you present on a public forum, criticism will ensue.

reply to post by windword

I do realize that you believe that Jesus rose from the dead. That requires pure faith.

That's exactly where I want to be, pure faith.

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Hebrews 11:6

Unfortunately, when you post on ATS you are placing your faith in a vulnerable position to those who would dispute the logic of your faith.

Fine with me, I'm used to the scrutiny and criticism. I know in Whom my faith resides and comes from, that Foundation is unmovable by man.