The Crucifixion: A Medical Perspective

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Correcting someone isn't the same as rebuke. Those are not the same Hebrew words.

One means to inform/instruct (like a teacher). The other means to judge/chasten (like a judge).

Correct: "yacar" in Hebrew
Rebuke: "yakach" in Hebrew

Similar spellings and sound, different connotations.

Yet, the sentiments of that verse is that you shouldn't do either.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

the other says to rebuke a mocker

SO ...I did. It was ironically stupid for those psalms to be used in defense of mocking!

Why are you ignoring today's ON TOPIC posts, NuT?

What posts? Who is talking about the medical aspects of the crucifixion?

And it's Proverbs. Psalms are poems written as songs by David. Proverbs are quips of wisdom written by David's son Solomon.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
No, it says you shouldn't rebuke/judge a mocker. It does say you should correct/instruct one.

No, it says that if you correct one, you'll make an enemy.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
And it says to rebuke a wise man you'll earn a friend.

Sure, but we were talking about mockers.

EDIT: NVM, I see what you're saying, and it makes sense.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

What posts? Who is talking about the medical aspects of the crucifixion?

Seriously? You didn't see the posts I've made about the tomb in Kashmir with EVIDENCE of it being that of a crucified man, and the study of the shroud showing it is AUTHENTIC and that he was ALIVE AND BLEEDING? Or the passage by Josephus stating he saw three men taken down from the cross and one of them SURVIVED with proper care?

Or are those somehow no longer pertinent?

Right, psalms and proverbs. Beside the point, but thanks for clarifying that.

reply to post by Hydroman

EDIT: NVM, I see what you're saying, and it makes sense.

I prefer to always use a Bible from the TR manuscripts that originated from Antioch, not the later Alexandrian texts. (KJV/NKJV), but whenever things get fuzzy just check what the Amplified has to say, that expounds tremendously. Of course there are certain things that are completely inadequate to translate from Hebrew to English, and also from Greek to English.

Hebrew is like a color TV, very vivid and expressive language. Greek is like a black and white TV, VERY rigid an precise. Very clumsy examples:

Hebrew: In the break of dawn, as the magnificent beams of light peeked over the horizon and the morning dew soothed my feet.

Greek: In the morning the Sun came up.

English: Sunrise.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

What posts? Who is talking about the medical aspects of the crucifixion?

Seriously? You didn't see the posts I've made about the tomb in Kashmir with EVIDENCE of it being that of a crucified man, and the study of the shroud showing it is AUTHENTIC and that he was ALIVE AND BLEEDING? Or the passage by Josephus stating he saw three men taken down from the cross and one of them SURVIVED with proper care?

Or are those somehow no longer pertinent?

Right, psalms and proverbs. Beside the point, but thanks for clarifying that.

I've already brought up the Josephus quote in the thread already. Those 3 men were afforded the best possible care of the empire, and two still died. Jesus a common Hebrew would never have been afforded the best medical care of Rome. And the studies I have seen on the shroud explain how pooled blood on the inside of him would come out when He was rolled over when being wrapped.

Heck, when I'm trimming the sinew and tendons a beef tenderloin or getting a prime rib ready to cook blood still goes everywhere on the cutting board. I don't see how any of that is an issue myself. Muscles holds a ton of residual blood.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Jesus a common Hebrew would never have been afforded the best medical care of Rome.

He was also beloved by the Essenes, who were considered all over the empire to be the best practitioners of medicines and healing.

And they got him down only a few hours after putting him up there, with no stabbed heart, and no broken legs. Josephus proves that people DID survive with care, and JESUS GOT CARE.

sigh.
whatever. Obviously nothing learned or discovered or found on earth by specialists who immerse their entire lives in studying these things will ever get you to move past your "apologetics" stuff. Sad.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Jesus a common Hebrew would never have been afforded the best medical care of Rome.

He was also beloved by the Essenes, who were considered all over the empire to be the best practitioners of medicines and healing.

And they got him down only a few hours after putting him up there, with no stabbed heart, and no broken legs. Josephus proves that people DID survive with care, and JESUS GOT CARE.

sigh.
whatever. Obviously nothing learned or discovered or found on earth by specialists who immerse their entire lives in studying these things will ever get you to move past your "apologetics" stuff. Sad.

The emergence of "blood and water" shows that the pericardial and pleural membranes were pierced with the spear tip. The doctors confirmed this. The main one who said the is a double-doctorate Pathologist who has done over 15,000 autopsies. The trauma surgeon in the OP video said that unless he was immediately operated on by a trauma surgeon with the best technology available today He wouldn't have survived more than a couple minutes with that injury. But the Man was dead for 3 hours at that point, it was strictly overkill. The reason the spear was thrust into Him was to follow Roman protocol for removal of a body from the cross because the family wanted to bury Him.

You cannot refuse to factor into the equation the Jewish authorities who were present at the crucifixion and wanted Him dead to begin with. The three men removed from the cross and afforded the best care by Rome didn't have a spear tip thrust into their thoracic cavity. That alone would have been a fatal injury after a couple minutes on a live person.

And I don't mind apologetics, it's fun, I do this in my leisure time. I do have to go out and plant a peach tree and two grape bushes.

Obviously nothing learned or discovered or found on earth by specialists who immerse their entire lives in studying these things will ever get you to move past your "apologetics" stuff.

Really? You're ignoring a board certified trauma surgeon and a world-renowned double-doctorate Pathologist with over 15,000 autopsies under his belt. I'm not too moved by that attempt at ridicule, sorry.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


I have repeatedly held out evidence and historical records that dispute your claim of the pericardial effusion. I even gave a personal witnessing experience of how the fluid looks that comes out of a pleural effusion, which was THE SAME THING...a watery fluid tinged with blood.

Have you ever seen the contents of a chest tube? Ever? Not likely I will ever forget watching the gunk that was being sucked out of my husband's pleural lining. EVER. So, your "it could only mean he was stabbed through the heart" is preposterous, as is the rest of your flimsy evidence trying to support an imagined (nowhere recorded!) barbarity just so you can do your apologetics.

I've brought it up THREE TIMES now. There is NO PROOF that the puncture wound from the spear went into his heart. You make a very long leap from the "spear in the right side" to being impaled all the way through to his heart.

It's a fail, and your refusal to recognize that is the only reason you don't see the logic behind the swoon theory. You won't even address it.

As for your meat oozing red fluid -- that is not blood, butcher man. That is the muscular juices breaking down.

You conveniently forget that most of the audience at his torture were uneducated (aside from the ESSENES who were there to SAVE HIM with prepared ointments,dressings, a brand new tomb, and quick action), that the centurion DECLINED to break his legs, that Jesus was NOT on the cross long enough to have died a typical crucifixion death (which were prolonged ON PURPOSE), or that there is evidence that Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus made a deal with Pilate who ALSO did not want to have Jesus killed.

That is just too much information for your flimsy theory to hold up to, whether you like it or not. Your only choice, therefore, is to disregard it, stick to your ONE biased doctor's opinion on a death he did not witness and an autopsy he did not perform, and call everyone else "fringe loony nutjobs."

Again, lame.
Think about it. I consider the debate closed, and the theory debunked.
/end participation

reply to post by wildtimes


Debunked for YOU. Don't include me in that group. I don't think the Romans all of a sudden forgot how to kill a man or ensure a man was dead. That to me is absurd. These were praetorian guardsmen, the elite of the Roman soldiers. It's like saying today Navy Seals would be commissioned to kill a person by their general and were incompetent to do that task. Let's say he survived the crucifixion, the thrust of the spear into his thoracic cavity would have been fatal by itself without the scourging or the crown of thorns.

The spear in the side was the clincher, they killed a man who hand hung for 3 hours dead. And that was only to follow Roman protocol from removing a body from the cross for family burial. The only way a condemned person could breathe was to lift himself off the foot nails, pull up with the hand nails and exhale and grasp another breath. Jesus hung for 3 hours. He couldn't breathe unless He lifted Himself up to exhale.

You think the Jewish authorities would say "Hey! He's still pushing up on the foot nails to breathe!!!" They were attending the crucifixion remember?

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Really? You're ignoring a board certified trauma surgeon and a world-renowned double-doctorate Pathologist with over 15,000 autopsies under his belt. I'm not too moved by that attempt at ridicule, sorry.

You're trying to apply science in an area where science doesn't belong.

You pathologist completely ignores the fact that there was no body to autopsy. In fact, the patient was up and about! He conveniently leaves that important little factoid out.

And then there's the issue of Jesus reassuring Mary Magdalene and the others that he wasn't a spirit, but flesh and bones, and didn't die! All you have to do is look at the scripture to see that Jesus didn't die.

But if you want to believe that he did and was resurrected, you don't need a doctor to prove it. In fact, it's impossible for a doctor to prove. You need to take a leap of faith.

reply to post by windword


Already took that leap of faith. Christ is my risen Savior and Lord.

I prayed this once - its the 15 Prayers of St Brigit, revealed to her by Jesus. I've taken out the prayerful bits, and left just the suffering. I always thought it profound.
 
       Remember all the fear, anguish and pain that Thou didst suffer in Thy delicate Body before the Crucifixion, when after having prayed three separate times, bathed in a 'sweat of blood,' Thou wast betrayed by Judas, Thy Disciple, arrested by the people of a nation Thou hadst chosen and elevated, accused by false witnesses, unjustly judged by three judges, all this in the flower of Thy youth and during the Solemn Paschal Season.
 
       Remember that Thou wast despoiled of Thy garments and clothed with the garments of derision; that Thy face and eyes were veiled, that Thou wast buffeted, crowned with thorns, a scepter placed in Thy hands, that Thou wast fastened to a column and crushed with blows and overwhelmed with affronts and outrages.

O Jesus! Creator of heaven and earth, Whom nothing can encompass nor limit, Thou Who dost enfold and hold all under Thy loving power, remember the very bitter pain which Thou didst suffer when blow by blow and with hatred the Jews nailed Thy Sacred Hands and Feet to the Cross, with big blunt nails; and, not finding Thee in a pitiable enough state to satisfy their rage, they enlarged Thy wounds, and added pain to pain, and with indescribable cruelty stretched Thy Body on the Cross, and dislocated Thy Bones by pulling them on all sides.

O Jesus! Heavenly Physician raised aloft on the Cross in order that through Thy Wounds, ours might be healed; remember the bruises which Thou didst suffer and the weakness of all Thy Members which were stretched to such a degree that never was there pain like unto Thine, from the Crown of Thy Head to the Soles of Thy Feet there was not one spot of Thy Body that was not in torment; and yet, forgetting all Thy Sufferings, Thou didst not cease to pray to Thy Heavenly Father for Thy enemies, saying: "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."
    
From Thy Side, pierced with the lance by a soldier, Blood and Water issued forth until there was not left in Thy Body a single drop, and finally, like a Bundle of Myrrh lifted to the very top of the Cross, Thy Delicate Flesh was destroyed, the Very Substance of Thy Body withered, and the Marrow of Thy Bones dried up.