The Crucifixion: A Medical Perspective

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by MagnumOpus

 

Yep, He died, and was dead for 3 days and 3 nights. COMPLETELY brain dead with rigermortis. That's why it's maintained He was NOT resuscitated,.. He was resurrected from the dead.

Completely and utterly dead, for days.

For NotUrTypical Jesus died then and there, and was never to be seen again.

Now you're lying, I never said He was "never to be seen again." That's your claim, don't attach my name it it.

You can't buy only half the medical science package, as Jesus is dead and brain dead. Then, That same medical science that you support for his death, says he won't be alive in any fasion again.

Unless, you want to buy medical science talking out one side of the mouth and deny it talking out the other side.

Your claim is Jesus was dead and gone. Then, Nothing but a poorly accounted story remains.

And when you bought into the medical science opinion, you bought into the rest of the medical science opinion that Jesus is gone forever, never to be seen again, not walking around ever, not talking, not eating.

You declaired Jesus died for all time. You have killed your King.

reply to post by MagnumOpus


pleural effusion would account for the water that came out of him when he was stabbed... I don't think it would have saved his life though....

Another thing i'd like to add that has been understood incorrectly in this thread... The cat o nine tails does not rip the skin open as many believe...

I've seen a documentary about medeval torture and executions... within said video they demonstrated the effects of the roman cat o nine tails on the carcus of a pig (which is the closest thing to a human body) ... It was once believed that this device ripped flesh from the body of the victim... but contrary to this belief it was clearly shown that it does not rip skin open... the lashes were definatly brutal... but instead of litterally ripping the skin open, it actually leaves very deep holes in the skin... not a single "rip" was present.

And they actually did 39 lashes as well...

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by MagnumOpus

 

pleural effusion would account for the water that came out of him when he was stabbed... I don't think it would have saved his life though....

but instead of litterally ripping the skin open, it actually leaves very deep holes in the skin... not a single "rip" was present.

Actually pleural effusion does have issues with being able to breath, and the standard treatment is to drain the lymph fluids with a needle to keep those so affected from dyng. But a poke in the side with a spear can do the same effect and drain off the lymph fluid also.

books.google.com... tpUay-VOdeqEFvVUQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jvGfT9yYNKLX0QHMkeGoAg&ved=0CEQQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=pleural%20effusion%20spear%20save%20jesus%20life&f=false

The hundreds of holes in the skin also set off all kinds of lymph system issues.

reply to post by MagnumOpus

You can't buy only half the medical science package, as Jesus is dead and brain dead. Then, That same medical science that you support for his death, says he won't be alive in any fasion again.

I don't think any Christian calls his death a miracle, the resurrection was. Just like the miracle in the Lazarus story was his resurrection from the dead, not his death. His resurrection was the only "sign" He said He would give to the unbelieving world.

You declaired Jesus died for all time. You have killed your King.

Why do you continue to lie? You added the "all time". I've only said he was dead for 3 days and 3 nights. Lying doesn't help your case any it just makes you appear panicked and desperate.

reply to post by Akragon


Was it a Roman flagellum? They had imbedded pieces of bone, metal, or glass in the flays.

And they actually did 39 lashes as well...

Remember, that was Jewish Law, the Romans offered no such mercy. They finished when they felt like finishing or were too tired to continue the beating.

reply to post by MagnumOpus



Dude, please stop. lol

Pleural effusion
Fluid in the chest; Fluid on the lung; Pleural fluid

A pleural effusion is a buildup of fluid between the layers of tissue that line the lungs and chest cavity.
Causes, incidence, and risk factors

Your body produces pleural fluid in small amounts to lubricate the surfaces of the pleura, the thin tissue that lines the chest cavity and surrounds the lungs. A pleural effusion is an abnormal, excessive collection of this fluid.

Two different types of effusions can develop:

Transudative pleural effusions are caused by fluid leaking into the pleural space. This is caused by increased pressure in, or low protein content in, the blood vessels. Congestive heart failure is the most common cause.

Exudative effusions are caused by blocked blood vessels, inflammation, lung injury, and drug reactions.

Pleural Effusions

In human anatomy, the pleural cavity is the potential space between the two pleura (visceral and parietal) of the lungs. The pleura is a serous membrane which folds back onto itself to form a two-layered, membrane structure. The thin space between the two pleural layers is known as the pleural cavity; it normally contains a small amount of pleural fluid. The outer pleura (parietal pleura) is attached to the chest wall. The inner pleura (visceral pleura) covers the lungs and adjoining structures, viz. blood vessels, bronchi and nerves.

The parietal pleura is highly sensitive to pain, while the visceral pleura is not, due to its lack of sensory innervation.

Pleural Cavity

reply to post by NOTurTypical


You have adopted your experts on Jesus death as being medical sciences, and the one that supports Jesus death theme. Thus, it no longer matters that you think he died 3 days, as you have given support to medicine's expert view as the superior to yours.

That medical science says when the heart stops the brain dies, for which there is no recovery ever.

Thus, once you start with the medical science view----you take the full ride and can't jump off the train, unless you want it to appear you caught the wrong ride.


You can't play jump around the theme and get on the medical bandwagon and then jump off without the appearance of being highly illogical and fake.


It then becomes you that appears to lie to yourself and to others with irrational conjecture that violates not only common sense, but medical sciences and reality of death.

reply to post by MagnumOpus


You can't just run in here all huffy-puffy and lie because you're angry. Sorry, I've always maintained He rose from the dead via resurrection after 3 days and 3 nights. No matter how many times you tell a lie about what I've said it'll never become my own words.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


You adoped medical science views as the rule for Jesus death.

Using that same method you adopted it tells very plainly that Jesus is dead forever. Only a vague memory remains.


No huffing and puffing coming from this end---just calm presentations of logic that exposes your irrational tought process.

It would appear you that has this huff and puff issue, as your jumping around begins to look really bad.

Originally posted by MagnumOpus
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

You adoped medical science views as the rule for Jesus death.

Using that same method you adopted it tells very plainly that Jesus is dead forever. Only a vague memory remains.

You're denying I proclaim the miracle called a resurrection. Miracles are event horizons that defy the known sciences. They have no naturalistic explanation and rest in the metaphysical.

Stop lying. I've only ever said He was dead for 3 days and 3 nights. Blatant lying doesn't help your argument one iota. It greatly damages it. Only people who have no rationed argument resort to deception to prove a point or win an argument. Lying about what your opponent says shows you subconsciously are panicking and admit defeat. only the cognitive dissonance is preventing the conscious person from making the admission.

reply to post by NOTurTypical



The word sees when your lack of knowledge makes you appear not credible. You will jump on the medical sciences in one breath and deny it in the next.

Such makes you look a little evasive, more like intentions to become deceptive and so controlling to keep people from looking at issues other than your limited view.

Lets let real medical science do the talking:

my.clevelandclinic.org...

What is pleural effusion?
Pleural effusion, sometimes referred to as “water on the lungs,” is the build-up of excess fluid between the layers of the pleura outside the lungs. The pleura are thin membranes that line the lungs and the inside of the chest cavity and act to lubricate and facilitate breathing. Normally, a small amount of fluid is present in the pleura.

-----

How is pleural effusion treated?
Treatment of pleural effusion is based on the underlying condition and whether the effusion is causing severe respiratory symptoms, such as shortness of breath or difficulty breathing.

A pleural effusion that is causing respiratory symptoms may be drained using therapeutic thoracentesis or through a chest tube (called tube thoracostomy).

------

Causes of pleural effusion include

Bleeding (due to chest trauma)
Chylothorax (due to trauma)
Chest and abdominal infections

And suddenly from medical sciences comes another explanation for where the clear liquid from the spear may have originated, plus the potential for that to have increased his chance for survival by doing the same function as a chest tube drain.


Must you always try to make a mircle when medical science tells there is no such thing. It makes you look very unintelligent.

Basic morality expects that one uses the rational mind at all times, and not the issues of the delusional or evasive mind that seeks to fool or misrepresent. If Jesus died, rational medical science tells it is over, he won't be back. Telling otherwise becomes immoral, untruthful, and failing to follow rational process.

reply to post by MagnumOpus


Now tell us all what a Pericardial Effusion is, post that. And I dont care how outstanding your chest drain is, it wont being back to life a man who has been dead for 3 hours.

I take it you're finished blatantly lying about what I post correct? There is already one member here who does that on a consistent basis, I dont need two.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
The doctor in the OP begins his case with the sweating of blood the night before the crucifixion. Not to be offensive, but did you watch the video in the OP?

I was at work all weekend and I couldn't watch Youtube videos so I was just going off the links you were supplying.

Originally posted by novastrike81

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
The doctor in the OP begins his case with the sweating of blood the night before the crucifixion. Not to be offensive, but did you watch the video in the OP?

I was at work all weekend and I couldn't watch Youtube videos so I was just going off the links you were supplying.

Not all of them, the op one begins with the sweating of blood.

reply to post by novastrike81

I thought the OP was about the medical perspective of Jesus on the Cross, not the events leading up to his crucifixion. Those points are irrelevant because none of them provide any evidence to the cause of him bleeding a water substance.

Joseph Atwill, in his book, Caesar's Messiah: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus, has an interesting take on this, where he brings up Gethsemane, and that it means, the press. It could be applied to a press for olives, or for a wine press. This happened on the Mount of Olives, where Josephus describes a battle between Titus, and someone by the name of Eleazar. He uses the term "pressed" to describe being under attack by the enemy.
Atwill's thesis is that the Gospels used the stories in Josephus to create the Gospels, where Eleazar was the actual historical person who was the model for the Gospel Jesus. Eleazar was "pressed" on the Mount of Olives. That was also the place where he was eventually arrested by Titus.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Was it a Roman flagellum? They had imbedded pieces of bone, metal, or glass in the flays.

Sure was... complete with the nasty little hooks at the end...

A little too late to edit my post above, but I just noticed I picked out the wrong post to respond to.
I was referring to the story in the Gospel of Jesus sweating blood before his arrest, while praying in the Garden of Gethsemane. Instead, I ended up linking to another post that was about the OP.
What I was talking about is the author of a book on the Gospels linking the sweating of blood with the idea of grapes being pressed to make wine, where the analogy is the grape juices oozing out of the grape being like someone sweating blood, but the underlying "real" connection being the hard pressing in a military sense, of Eleazar, on the Mount of Olives, before his capture and subsequent execution as a rebel against the Romans during the siege of Jerusalem by Titus in 70 AD.

There have been a number of books, and at least one comic book (by Jack T. Chick), on the medical aspects of crucifixion, and particularly how hideously painful it is and how it takes hours to die. Actually, in the Gospels, the terrific beating that Jesus got beforehand probably hastened his unconsciousness and death. The Mel Gibson movie was based on a nun's "vision" that even added new tortures that aren't mentioned in the Gospels (such as dangling Jesus from an overpass). I sort of doubt these additional tortures took place because they increased the risk that Jesus would die, or at least lapse into a coma, before dragging his cross to Calvary.

It has long been maintained by Christianity that Jesus's special quality ultimately devolves on the fact that "he died for us". However, in the course of history, perhaps especially the 20th Century, there are plenty of examples of people dying for the sake of others. From the trenches of the First World War and other wars, to the Titanic, to the Death Camps, to the Sudan, etc., plenty of examples of people sacrificing themselves for others. In fact, we've seen, in this age of modern medicine, people suffer worse and longer miseries than Jesus had to endure. Jesus had a really bad afternoon for us, but some other people have endured weeks or even months of bone crushing agony in hospitals, even in prisons.

reply to post by Shoonra


While i agree with you... i would definatly not call that a "bad afternoon"...

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Yep, He died, and was dead for 3 days and 3 nights. COMPLETELY brain dead with rigermortis. That's why it's maintained He was NOT resuscitated,.. He was resurrected from the dead.

Wait.

What?

From Friday afternoon to Sunday is NOT three days and three nights.
It's a brief weekend....less than 48 hours total....Friday night, Saturday night...commonly known as a two night stay....2 nights. One day in between. Sunday....check out. Re-animated. One day....2 nights.

This is so ridiculous.